Page 1 of 2
Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:20 pmby Douglas Higginbottom
I keep hearing it but could somebody help with 2 questions:
1) How long should it take for a team to gel and bearing in mind how long a large part of them have already been together? Perhaps also taking into account the high quality of the new players and thus arguably that they should settle in more quickly than the avarage player.
2) What really does the term gel mean? Is it more about the players getting used to each other or the manager's tactics? Does it only apply to a significant group of new players or would it apply to an individual, say Van Der Vaart?
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:21 pmby Alioune DVToure
Thanks Doug.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:22 pmby Beefymcfc
Very good questions Douglas and ones that I am interested to hear answers for.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:24 pmby Alioune DVToure
Oops - old habits die hard.
I think it's easy for the likes of Van Der Vaart to fit in because he only really needs to focus on his own game. We're (effectively) playing with a new keeper, different full-backs every week and trying to ease some players in after injury. We were unlucky with the injuries to Boateng, Kolarov and Balotelli right at the start of the season, coz I think they were all earmarked for the starting eleven or the bench at the very least.
With them all back, I think we should begin to settle, discover our best 11/18 and kick on from here. Defences take longer to gel than other areas of the pitch, and that's where we've made the most changes recently.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:28 pmby Fish111
I class the term 'gelling' as getting used to another players style of play. Adebayor will probably know exactly what runs Tevez is likely to make but Super Mario won't have a clue about either of them and all new players won't have a clue what type of balls the midfield players are likey/are able to play up to them. On top of all that everyone has to accept and appreciate the managers & coaches style of play and tactics. All this takes time and i think the better players adjust, or gel, quicker than shit players. Nine games in and we're fourth, i'd have taken that before the season started for a bunch of players new to England and starting out with a relatively new manager.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:30 pmby BlueMoonAwoken
im really starting to believe its the wrong tactics, we are playing with too many defensive midfielders rather than somebody technically gifted, playing gareth barry on the left wing or left side of midfield in my opinion is harming the team. Asking yaya to be our creative midfielder is asking him something he has never really done in his career, and then we have nigel.
To play like spurs you need to play your attacking players and regular back four for a period of time. Then over time they bond as a team.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:32 pmby Nick
Alioune DVToure wrote:Oops - old habits die hard.
I think it's easy for the likes of Van Der Vaart to fit in because he only really needs to focus on his own game. We're (effectively) playing with a new keeper, different full-backs every week and trying to ease some players in after injury. We were unlucky with the injuries to Boateng, Kolarov and Balotelli right at the start of the season, coz I think they were all earmarked for the starting eleven or the bench at the very least.
With them all back, I think we should begin to settle, discover our best 11/18 and kick on from here. Defences take longer to gel than other areas of the pitch, and that's where we've made the most changes recently.
this
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:46 pmby Beefymcfc
BlueMoonAwoken wrote:im really starting to believe its the wrong tactics, we are playing with too many defensive midfielders rather than somebody technically gifted, playing gareth barry on the left wing or left side of midfield in my opinion is harming the team. Asking yaya to be our creative midfielder is asking him something he has never really done in his career, and then we have nigel.
To play like spurs you need to play your attacking players and regular back four for a period of time. Then over time they bond as a team.
There could be some truth in this one mate.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:53 pmby john68
Great question Doug.
I think we use the term quite glibly and take for granted that after a short getting to know you period, things will improve...Not always the case.
For me it covers a number of things.
1...For many foreign players it includes settling into a new culture, home etc.
2...For some foreign players it means getting used to the physicality and speed of the English game.
3...It is geeting know and understand how the players around you operate, how they like the ball, for central defenders, who goes,and who stays under different circumstances etc.
4...Getting used to the club and its culture.
5...Getting used to the possible new training methods of the club
6...Getting used to a new manager and coaching staff, new tactics and srategies.
There does seem to be a general acceptance that after this stuff is all settled, a player will play to his potential but that isn't necessarily the case. Often after the intitial sttling period, a player never reaches the heights expected of him.
This is Mancini's 1st attempt at a City squad and there are no guarantees that it will all go smoothly. I would be very suprised if every player he bought became a success. We have not had the chance to see who, if anyone is not matching the standaeds needed and then we have to find a replacement and rectify the mistake.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:58 pmby Douglas Higginbottom
Nick wrote:Alioune DVToure wrote:Oops - old habits die hard.
I think it's easy for the likes of Van Der Vaart to fit in because he only really needs to focus on his own game. We're (effectively) playing with a new keeper, different full-backs every week and trying to ease some players in after injury. We were unlucky with the injuries to Boateng, Kolarov and Balotelli right at the start of the season, coz I think they were all earmarked for the starting eleven or the bench at the very least.
With them all back, I think we should begin to settle, discover our best 11/18 and kick on from here. Defences take longer to gel than other areas of the pitch, and that's where we've made the most changes recently.
this
But isn't "this" just excuses rather than answering the question
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:59 pmby MaineRoadMemories
For me the whole team does not need to gel with each other. Successful teams have a number of players who go and do their own thing on the pitch.
What really matters is partnerships!
Partnerships is what City have been lacking for ages. It appears we just go out and buy some expensive players and see how they get on with each other.
The most important partnership on the pitch is the centre back pairing. Not since the Distin and Dunne years have we had a settled and decent partnership at the back. Kolo and Vinny - not sure they have it in them to be a great partnership.
Case study of excellent: Bruce and Pallister
The next most important partnership is the strikers. Although we only play one up top so striker and a random midfielder in our case. But if you play with two up top and having a decent partnership then the amount of time you have on the ball in the opposition half with your striker being able to win a ball and lay it off to another who makes the right runs from his pass or header is incredibly important. We have Tevez and errr Tevez
Case Study of Excellence: Shearer and Sutton
The next partnership is the wide player and the full back. Those two have to work side by side in both attack and defense. They need to think like one and become a double act. When a full back and wide man have total understanding of each other then they are deadly at one end and destructive at the other. Our full backs and wide players change on a game-by-game basis, they never get to work together for long. In fact I'd guess the last effective partnership in this position was back in the day with SWP and Sun.
Case Study of Excellence: Ashley Cole and Malouda
The final partnership is the two in the middle. Knowing when to go forward and when to go back, knowing how to cover, how to make little runs into space and play one twos around others. Barry and Yaya look so far away from being a partnership at the mo:-(
Case Study of Excellence: Vieira and Gilberto Silva
Thinking back to our current City side, we have no partnerships of any note at the moment. It's just Tevez on his own working like a trogen with the odd splash of class from Silva and Johnson.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:06 pmby Alioune DVToure
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Nick wrote:Alioune DVToure wrote:Oops - old habits die hard.
I think it's easy for the likes of Van Der Vaart to fit in because he only really needs to focus on his own game. We're (effectively) playing with a new keeper, different full-backs every week and trying to ease some players in after injury. We were unlucky with the injuries to Boateng, Kolarov and Balotelli right at the start of the season, coz I think they were all earmarked for the starting eleven or the bench at the very least.
With them all back, I think we should begin to settle, discover our best 11/18 and kick on from here. Defences take longer to gel than other areas of the pitch, and that's where we've made the most changes recently.
this
But isn't "this" just excuses rather than answering the question
No. I don't feel the need to make excuses as I think we're doing OK. I've no agenda. We've had two bad results recently, one of which was inevitable from the fourth minute onwards.
What do you want, a scientific answer? OK. "Good" players "gel" 75% quicker than "less good" players. Looking at our current personnel, I'd say we'll gel on approximately 14th January at 2 p.m.
We've been having to play players in positions that other players were signed to fill (i.e. Zab, Lescott, Bridge and Boateng at LB). Once all the injuries clear up - which seems to be the case - we'll be more of a steady unit.
No disrespect Doug, but was this a rhetorical question? Is there only one right answer? I don't get what you're looking for in the responses.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:09 pmby Nick
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Nick wrote:Alioune DVToure wrote:Oops - old habits die hard.
I think it's easy for the likes of Van Der Vaart to fit in because he only really needs to focus on his own game. We're (effectively) playing with a new keeper, different full-backs every week and trying to ease some players in after injury. We were unlucky with the injuries to Boateng, Kolarov and Balotelli right at the start of the season, coz I think they were all earmarked for the starting eleven or the bench at the very least.
With them all back, I think we should begin to settle, discover our best 11/18 and kick on from here. Defences take longer to gel than other areas of the pitch, and that's where we've made the most changes recently.
this
But isn't "this" just excuses rather than answering the question
I dont think it is, I dont see why you seem to running out of patience with Mancini and compare the gelling of a whole new 11 to a one player like RDV in a settled spurs team.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:09 pmby Beeks
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:What really does the term gel mean?
gel noun
a thick liquid substance which is put in the hair to help the hair keep a particular shape or style
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:09 pmby BlueMoonAwoken
I dissagree with the foreign argument john because we have quite alot of english players in our first team.
People like toure and kompany have been in the prem for years, same goes for barry, milner at tevez etc
We should have a strong enough spine to bring in players like ballotelli and be able to keep the ball and allow him to play with freedom without putting too much pressure on him.
What pundits and fans have been saying is our defence and midfield sit too deep and the gap between our midfield and attackers is way too big..... this is because in my opinion we play with barry( mostly defensive) Yaya (mostly defensive) milner( great cross but mostly defensive work) Nigel(extremely defensive)
Most of our midfields first thought is protecting the back four but on the other hand david silva's first thought is creating goals and scoring goals. you cant put all the pressure on him and tevez to get goals. You need to play with wingers like johnson and swp.
But then its a game of opinions and if we played like i thought would we be too open?
But if you dont score goals you dont win games.. simple as!
You cant hope to knick a goal and defend 100% perfectly for 90 minutes.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:10 pmby Alioune DVToure
MaineRoadMemories wrote:For me the whole team does not need to gel with each other. Successful teams have a number of players who go and do their own thing on the pitch.
What really matters is partnerships!
Partnerships is what City have been lacking for ages. It appears we just go out and buy some expensive players and see how they get on with each other.
The most important partnership on the pitch is the centre back pairing. Not since the Distin and Dunne years have we had a settled and decent partnership at the back. Kolo and Vinny - not sure they have it in them to be a great partnership.
Case study of excellent: Bruce and Pallister
The next most important partnership is the strikers. Although we only play one up top so striker and a random midfielder in our case. But if you play with two up top and having a decent partnership then the amount of time you have on the ball in the opposition half with your striker being able to win a ball and lay it off to another who makes the right runs from his pass or header is incredibly important. We have Tevez and errr Tevez
Case Study of Excellence: Shearer and Sutton
The next partnership is the wide player and the full back. Those two have to work side by side in both attack and defense. They need to think like one and become a double act. When a full back and wide man have total understanding of each other then they are deadly at one end and destructive at the other. Our full backs and wide players change on a game-by-game basis, they never get to work together for long. In fact I'd guess the last effective partnership in this position was back in the day with SWP and Sun.
Case Study of Excellence: Ashley Cole and Malouda
The final partnership is the two in the middle. Knowing when to go forward and when to go back, knowing how to cover, how to make little runs into space and play one twos around others. Barry and Yaya look so far away from being a partnership at the mo:-(
Case Study of Excellence: Vieira and Gilberto Silva
Thinking back to our current City side, we have no partnerships of any note at the moment. It's just Tevez on his own working like a trogen with the odd splash of class from Silva and Johnson.
I agree, and it is a squad game. But we need a settled, first-choice back five. Worked a treat for Arsenal in the early-90s, Munes in the late-90s and recently, and Chelsea between 2005ish and 2009ish. In my opinion you can chop and change all over the pitch according to form, but you should have a first-choice back five that will always play when fit. For me, ours is Hart-Richards-Toure-Kompany-Kolarov, but that's for RM to decide.
In the case of Bruce and Pallister, don't forget that Schmeichel, Parker and Irwin made up that defence for years on end too.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:25 pmby Ted Hughes
Some of Hughes' players have started to gel this season but most didn't really click last season.This year's new ones whilst playing well sometimes as individuals aren't imo clicking as a team yet, apart from on occasions. It could easily take until this time next year before that truly happens. The constant changes are making it much harder too. I think we can still be pretty shit hot if we only gel at 50% this season though as we've got one of the best squads in history.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:57 pmby BobKowalski
I guess it takes as long as it takes. Doug uses Van Der Vart as a pointer to where he thinks how long players should take yet the PL is littered with players from Henry to Drogba via fake Ronnie who took a season or so to bed in. Modric took a full season as well whereas Silva is coming on a treat after 10 games or so. Finally coming into a settled side with a settled coaching infrastructure is easier then bedding everything in from owners to tea lady.
The answer to the question is basically use some common sense. My question is If our season is crap so far in terms of point and position then why are Spurs the beacon we should follow when they have less points and an inferior goal difference? Answers on a post card.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:57 pmby Nick
at the end of the day taggart has smalling (boateng) and chico (ballotelli) to just use now and then and against shocking sides in which he supplements with his core spine. We buy these players and expect them to win the league. Silva is a case in point.
Our reserves are not young hungry lads, they are BRIDGE, veira and SWP. We need an upgrade.
Re: Time To Gel
Posted:
Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:59 pmby john68
BlueMoonAwoken,
It was more of a generalanswer regarding what I thought gelling was. It wasn'rt specifically meant as a reply concerning City.
Regarding City, Ballotelli, Siva, Kollarov and Boateng are in that bracket of being new and havibf to cope with what I posted.