The mancityfans.net football forum

No - not the team!

Mourinho made a point when he was at Chelsea about the goals that are scored following "transition" when possession is lost unexpectedly. The team that had the ball are moving forward and are out of position to defend. If the team that gains the ball can exploit that weakness within a few seconds they will have a good chance to score; if they take longer the defence can recover and the opportunity will be lost. An absolutely perfect example of this was Torres' second goal against Chelsea, most of the Chelsea defence was still getting back into the box when the ball was in the net.

City have players like Tevez and De Jong who will win balls in midfield they are not expected to and this gives us the chance for those transition goals but we spend so long on the ball we still have to beat the oppositions entire defence to score.

Torres showed what you need to do to make the opportunities count but strikers we probably have who can do that too but do we have the players in midfield who can win the ball and play those telling passes? It seems to me our players can do one or the other but is what we really need much more flair in midfield so that our stikers have something to work with?

Barry drives me to distraction. 15 yards of empty space in front of him and he still playes the ball backwards.

blues-clues wrote:No - not the team!

Mourinho made a point when he was at Chelsea about the goals that are scored following "transition" when possession is lost unexpectedly. The team that had the ball are moving forward and are out of position to defend. If the team that gains the ball can exploit that weakness within a few seconds they will have a good chance to score; if they take longer the defence can recover and the opportunity will be lost. An absolutely perfect example of this was Torres' second goal against Chelsea, most of the Chelsea defence was still getting back into the box when the ball was in the net.

City have players like Tevez and De Jong who will win balls in midfield they are not expected to and this gives us the chance for those transition goals but we spend so long on the ball we still have to beat the oppositions entire defence to score.

Torres showed what you need to do to make the opportunities count but strikers we probably have who can do that too but do we have the players in midfield who can win the ball and play those telling passes? It seems to me our players can do one or the other but is what we really need much more flair in midfield so that our stikers have something to work with?

Barry drives me to distraction. 15 yards of empty space in front of him and he still playes the ball backwards.

You found our weakness right there. Barry and De Jong can't deliver ball forward, meaning that we win posession and could start quick counter but neither of them are ever willing to pass the ball forward.

We were really good at this under both Sven and Hughes. I think we will pick it up again with Mancini, but the big difference is that most team don't commit as much attacking wise against us as they used to do. We've now become a team to fear/respect, which means that the opponents are weary, keeping more men behind the ball.

think de jong is gettin slightly better re; forward passes, where as barry is gone backwards and looks like a fish out of water

I do prefer drawing to getting beat though,thats a posotive.

Those derbies last year were heartbreaking.

The important thing also when we win the ball is to have options and movement up front.Usually I don't think we are bad on movement but too often there are no options to aim for. Tevez will normally be a target and he does show well for passes but often he is the only one.That surely is because of the get back and defend as a team which is a massive part of the team ethos.

Last night nothing happened on the occasions we won the ball partly because the scum were keeping men back but also because our movement was dreadful

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

blues-clues wrote:No - not the team!

Mourinho made a point when he was at Chelsea about the goals that are scored following "transition" when possession is lost unexpectedly. The team that had the ball are moving forward and are out of position to defend. If the team that gains the ball can exploit that weakness within a few seconds they will have a good chance to score; if they take longer the defence can recover and the opportunity will be lost. An absolutely perfect example of this was Torres' second goal against Chelsea, most of the Chelsea defence was still getting back into the box when the ball was in the net.

City have players like Tevez and De Jong who will win balls in midfield they are not expected to and this gives us the chance for those transition goals but we spend so long on the ball we still have to beat the oppositions entire defence to score.

Torres showed what you need to do to make the opportunities count but strikers we probably have who can do that too but do we have the players in midfield who can win the ball and play those telling passes? It seems to me our players can do one or the other but is what we really need much more flair in midfield so that our stikers have something to work with?

Barry drives me to distraction. 15 yards of empty space in front of him and he still playes the ball backwards.

You found our weakness right there. Barry and De Jong can't deliver ball forward, meaning that we win posession and could start quick counter but neither of them are ever willing to pass the ball forward.

In fairness to de Jong, he has gotten A LOT better when it comes to passing the ball forward this season.

I agree but we also have no pace and no striker who is willing to make runs in behind the defence, when we play tevez on his own he likes to drop off so then we have no options up front, last night we played milner who does not have pace and does not have any tricks, silva was on the other flank who has tricks and can create but if know one is forward of him or he has little options the ball goes backwards.

A player like torres would be ideal for me as he would be the opposite to tevez as in he would be running behind and tevez would be picking it up short and causing mayhem with his movement.

A player like torres would alos bring the best out of players like silva, yaya and barry as they constantly get the ball and look up naturally to play the ball forward but if know one is making the runs in behind our game becomes easy to read.

avoidconfusion wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

blues-clues wrote:No - not the team!

Mourinho made a point when he was at Chelsea about the goals that are scored following "transition" when possession is lost unexpectedly. The team that had the ball are moving forward and are out of position to defend. If the team that gains the ball can exploit that weakness within a few seconds they will have a good chance to score; if they take longer the defence can recover and the opportunity will be lost. An absolutely perfect example of this was Torres' second goal against Chelsea, most of the Chelsea defence was still getting back into the box when the ball was in the net.

City have players like Tevez and De Jong who will win balls in midfield they are not expected to and this gives us the chance for those transition goals but we spend so long on the ball we still have to beat the oppositions entire defence to score.

Torres showed what you need to do to make the opportunities count but strikers we probably have who can do that too but do we have the players in midfield who can win the ball and play those telling passes? It seems to me our players can do one or the other but is what we really need much more flair in midfield so that our stikers have something to work with?

Barry drives me to distraction. 15 yards of empty space in front of him and he still playes the ball backwards.

You found our weakness right there. Barry and De Jong can't deliver ball forward, meaning that we win posession and could start quick counter but neither of them are ever willing to pass the ball forward.

In fairness to de Jong, he has gotten A LOT better when it comes to passing the ball forward this season.

I agree that he has been better this season on it. And I would even question whether it's his job to deliver through balls. BUT if you have player like De Jong in three man (or four man for that matter) midfield, you need rest of them to be able to do it. Especially as we don't have out and out attacking playmaker. Barry isn't doing the same job as De Jong defensively and keeping the side together therefore it's him who needs to step up with his delivery. Problem is, Barry was never like that really even for Villa. And for me he has actually declined for the level he showed for them.

Personally I feel we need to replace Barry with much better and preferably attackminded player.

I thought there were a couple of occasions where we looked to break and were part way there...... then realised nothing was on so we kept the ball and slowed it down. Smart.

Petrov, Bellamy, Robinho, Ireland, SWP, tevez. They were the players who took advantage of such transition & they were the best exponents we had at the club of the counter attack. It doesn't matter if Barry plays the ball quickly or not as we have nobody left at the club who has the ability or pace to take advantage other than Tevez (as SWP doesn't care anymore). Perhaps Balotelli will do it when he gets up to speed but on the whole Sven & Hughes were miles better at transition & counter attacking than Mancini.

I think it's become increasingly obvious that Mancini uses tactics that he feels suits the players he has. I also think that it is increasingly obvious that Mancini has already worked out who/what he wants in the future.
Had we landed Torres or Dzeko (Mancini's targets) last summer, I am certain that the tactics we adopted last night would have been vastly different.
This present squad is only partly built and we will see a nimber of changes even in the next 12 months. He has already identified a striker is needed and when we get the one he wants. The strategies he employs will change accordingly.

The foundations are there, the walls built, now we need to put the roof on. This City project was always going to take years. We have been told that from the beginning. It's fine to analyse what is happening now but we should also consider that further development will change and improve things in the future.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW...AIN'T WHAT WE WILL HAVE NEXT SEASON.

john68 wrote:I think it's become increasingly obvious that Mancini uses tactics that he feels suits the players he has. I also think that it is increasingly obvious that Mancini has already worked out who/what he wants in the future.
Had we landed Torres or Dzeko (Mancini's targets) last summer, I am certain that the tactics we adopted last night would have been vastly different.
This present squad is only partly built and we will see a nimber of changes even in the next 12 months. He has already identified a striker is needed and when we get the one he wants. The strategies he employs will change accordingly.

The foundations are there, the walls built, now we need to put the roof on. This City project was always going to take years. We have been told that from the beginning. It's fine to analyse what is happening now but we should also consider that further development will change and improve things in the future.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW...AIN'T WHAT WE WILL HAVE NEXT SEASON.

but again...he could have: Kept Bellamy and figured it out. Gotten into Robson's head to make him matter. Played Ade or RSC to see what kind of interplay can be created. ETC.

i just dont see any indication that "attacking" in a way we saw under Hughes will be a priority. ANd i miss that. To Kiers point above tho, i don't miss it at the expense of points. But i don't agree with you that Mancini'll all of a sudden whip off his suit and show us some swashbuckling style bearing an eye patch and a peg-leg waving players on to go for the kill. Yknow?

cheers

john68 wrote:I think it's become increasingly obvious that Mancini uses tactics that he feels suits the players he has. I also think that it is increasingly obvious that Mancini has already worked out who/what he wants in the future.
Had we landed Torres or Dzeko (Mancini's targets) last summer, I am certain that the tactics we adopted last night would have been vastly different.
This present squad is only partly built and we will see a nimber of changes even in the next 12 months. He has already identified a striker is needed and when we get the one he wants. The strategies he employs will change accordingly.

The foundations are there, the walls built, now we need to put the roof on. This City project was always going to take years. We have been told that from the beginning. It's fine to analyse what is happening now but we should also consider that further development will change and improve things in the future.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW...AIN'T WHAT WE WILL HAVE NEXT SEASON.

That's fine & I agree but imo we're worse at some aspects of the game now than we were last season. This particular topic points out one of the things which was, if not a consistent strength previously, certainly a strength on many occasions. which has now become a consistent weakness. It was never more obvious than last night, late in the game, when three or four players all broke, making the same run, straight down the middle of the pitch towards Utd's most packed defensive area whilst AJ was left trailling behind. Compare that to the days of Petrov, Bellamy & even Ireland & Robinho & the way they quickly switched, drew players out of position & killed & it's a big step backwards. Imo that's down to the current manager removing certain players because of their weaknesses but failing to replace their attributes, not down to Gareth Barry who was a part of successful moves of that kind last season. If we're going to genuinely improve as a football team, rather than just signing high quality strangers, these are the kind of things I want to see Mancini address & solve if he's to stay in the job long term.

Doomie,
You are a very naughty boy, trying to put words in my mouth or attempting to extrematise (is that a word?) my points.
I never thought nor indicated that anything would happen "all of a sudden"...(your words).
Nor did I suggest that Mancini would "employ attacking in a way we saw under Hughes"...(again, your words).
And at no point did It even enter my head that Mancini would "whip off his suit...show us swashbuckling style....eyepatches...peg leg waving....killing"...(your words once again).

But because I love you mate...I will absolve you....5 Hail Mary's, all will be forgotten and the Kingdom of heaven reopened for you.

From the manner in which mancini has employed his tactics, to the players he has bought, it is obvious that he does things in a controlled way. Looking to make steady progress at the speed he feels he and the squad are comfy with.

Regarding Bellamy; I think that there may have been a personal factor that mancini thought he couldn't work with. Maybe it was his knees and the possibility of so many games. Bellers was never part of our long term project and maybe the Cardiff deal was the chance to offload. I think RSC would have been shipped out too if a deal could have been sorted.

lets all have a disco wrote:I do prefer drawing to getting beat though,thats a posotive.

Those derbies last year were heartbreaking.

This.

The way we pushed them close last year but ultimately failed was a kind of moral victory, in other words, completely meaningless. The point is rather more tangible.

The filth won't be able to play like that with ten men behind the ball against us on their own patch though, and that's when we will pick them off.

I do feel that we lack a little bit of pace this season. We need to bring some genuine pace in in January / summer. Anyone got any ideas who might fit the bill?

I think John68 has it about right, the strategies are tailored to the players and perhaps on the cautious side as he hasn't got quiet what he wants. That does raise the issue of getting the most out of what you have etc and i think there is valid criticism of Mancini on that aspect of his management.. that said of course in his defense he is probably more interested at the moment in developing what he wants as a long term approach by the team, rather than learn one way now and then re-learn a different approach when he has what he wants.

In response to some of the criticism of our forward play last night, there were a couple of occasions that Kolarov got the chance to cross.. players were waiting and he fluffed them both. Tevez got in a good position and the rags were out of positions and he tried to shoot when Barry had run right up behind him.
So from that sort of thing you could argue that we are still making the wrong choices.. and i would argue that it is just the lack of game time together in the thick of it that is really missing. i would argue nearly all our players are capable enough now and unfortunately we have to have patience.. uff! perhaps a lot of it.

if last nights game has promted this thread to some extent, then it was pretty damn obvious that both teams did not want to concede first.. i wouldn't say they both went for the draw, but they were both set up and made sure they didn't let the first goal in. Maybe the rags looked more fluid in getting the ball forward in those transition moments, but the reason for that is fuclin obvious and doesn't need stating.
Further to that, when we had opportunities to break at speed we didn't and checked.. this again for me is a mix of instructions not to give possession away cheaply and a lack of match time to overcome the slight hesitation. On a couple of occassions i mentally timed the pauses before a through ball was played and we are talking about between half a second to a second.. not a lot but it makes all the difference. Without that lag on more than a couple of occasions we would have had some joy imo.

At the end of the day the rags created bugger all of note as well. No-one wanted to lose.

Tokyo Blue wrote:

lets all have a disco wrote:I do prefer drawing to getting beat though,thats a posotive.

Those derbies last year were heartbreaking.

This.

The way we pushed them close last year but ultimately failed was a kind of moral victory, in other words, completely meaningless. The point is rather more tangible.

The filth won't be able to play like that with ten men behind the ball against us on their own patch though, and that's when we will pick them off.

I do feel that we lack a little bit of pace this season. We need to bring some genuine pace in in January / summer. Anyone got any ideas who might fit the bill?

I think it will suit us better to play them at theirs and on that showing i think they will struggle with the expectation of being at home and that will leave them vunerable.

brite blu sky wrote:

Tokyo Blue wrote:

lets all have a disco wrote:I do prefer drawing to getting beat though,thats a posotive.

Those derbies last year were heartbreaking.

This.

The way we pushed them close last year but ultimately failed was a kind of moral victory, in other words, completely meaningless. The point is rather more tangible.

The filth won't be able to play like that with ten men behind the ball against us on their own patch though, and that's when we will pick them off.

I do feel that we lack a little bit of pace this season. We need to bring some genuine pace in in January / summer. Anyone got any ideas who might fit the bill?

I think it will suit us better to play them at theirs and on that showing i think they will struggle with the expectation of being at home and that will leave them vunerable.

Plus of course wooney and vidic will have gone by then. Maybe that fucking knob evra too.