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Whenever City go one down or even two down like last night I do have the confidence that we will come back into the game and win the game.

Anyone else feel like this? I don't know how many times we have won from being behind the last few years but it feels like a low number.

Flipping the coin though, when we score first I'm always confident of at least a point and mostly three.

Some of us have remarked recently that we thought it would be the true test of where we are as a team; how we reacted to being a goal down.

With the same territorial advantage, epecially around the box, the rags' teams of recent years would have pummelled Everton into the ground. It would be caused by sheer weight of quality crosses & men attacking the ball both aerially & on the ground. The goal may not be from a cross but the panic that caused it would be. That's the benchmark we need to reach. Imo it's very very easy to solve yet neither Hughes nor Bob have solved it. Under both managers we've developed a team that does the hard things & fucks up the easy ones.

We're blaming refs etc for our inability to breakdown a packed defence. It's entirely down to us having no plan B or C. Everton just blocked Tevez. Game over.

Quality of crossing is still abysmal - why? It´s a fuclin mythery as Toyah once observed

Ted Hughes wrote:Some of us have remarked recently that we thought it would be the true test of where we are as a team; how we reacted to being a goal down.

With the same territorial advantage, epecially around the box, the rags' teams of recent years would have pummelled Everton into the ground. It would be caused by sheer weight of quality crosses & men attacking the ball both aerially & on the ground. The goal may not be from a cross but the panic that caused it would be. That's the benchmark we need to reach. Imo it's very very easy to solve yet neither Hughes nor Bob have solved it. Under both managers we've developed a team that does the hard things & fucks up the easy ones.

We're blaming refs etc for our inability to breakdown a packed defence. It's entirely down to us having no plan B or C. Everton just blocked Tevez. Game over.

Spot on although even at 2 down I thought we would come back and win. Can't remember the last time I had that much faith in a city side

david yearsley wrote:Quality of crossing is still abysmal - why? It´s a fuclin mythery as Toyah once observed

Agreed, even when cutting inside the final ball is just not up to the level of any of the other sides in Europe?

Good point about the crossing element. Most teams when they need a goal put a defender up front and cross the ball from everywhere. The midfielders push up to the edge of the D. Most often when this happens a goal doesn't come directly from the cross but from the melee that occurs from the second ball with someone prodding the ball home from 4 yards.

The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

sandman wrote:

david yearsley wrote:Quality of crossing is still abysmal - why? It´s a fuclin mythery as Toyah once observed

Agreed, even when cutting inside the final ball is just not up to the level of any of the other sides in Europe?

We're the worst crossers & the worst attacking headers of a ball in all 4 divisions imo. It's pathetic to watch & I'm fucking sick of it. Sort it out for Christ's sake.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

I don't think it's purely down to the obvious lack of heading ability but the two things do go together; if we do get a cross right, nobody scores from it anyway so the man crossing tries something else which goes to shit.

Agree about pace but Balotelli should provide that if we work on it (as happened when he hit the post). Shame we haven't replaced Bellamy though.

We haven't had a proper header of the ball for years. In fact, I can't think of one.

If we had a shearer type or even a fletcher/cahill who do it through timed runs, we'd get a lot more goals and therefore points. It was probably why we bought lescott and rsc, but both are pants. We need a big centre half or forward to get on the end of corners and who we can use as a plan b

i didn't catch the match live, but watched my recording of it last night before i went to bed. I believe with Bellamy on the pitch we would have beaten Everton 3-2 yesterday.

There, i said it.

cheers

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

I don't think it's purely down to the obvious lack of heading ability but the two things do go together; if we do get a cross right, nobody scores from it anyway so the man crossing tries something else which goes to shit.

Agree about pace but Balotelli should provide that if we work on it (as happened when he hit the post). Shame we haven't replaced Bellamy though.

I wasn't just referring to a player's speed but more the speed of passing and the movement off the ball. I was looking to see our players buzzing in and around and past the striker(s).I just didn't think we moved the ball quickly enough and for long periods there wasn't enough energy to create space and openings.

Even at 2-0 down last night I honestly thought we could go on and win it. At half time I probably would have been pushed to settle for a draw such is my belief in the boys. Take away the resolute way in which Everton defended, some great goalkeeping and the little bit of bad luck we had in front of goal and we could quite easily have turned that around and taken all 3 points. I think we'll learn from it tho and in the long run that will stand us in good stead.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

I don't think it's purely down to the obvious lack of heading ability but the two things do go together; if we do get a cross right, nobody scores from it anyway so the man crossing tries something else which goes to shit.

Agree about pace but Balotelli should provide that if we work on it (as happened when he hit the post). Shame we haven't replaced Bellamy though.

I wasn't just referring to a player's speed but more the speed of passing and the movement off the ball. I was looking to see our players buzzing in and around and past the striker(s).I just didn't think we moved the ball quickly enough and for long periods there wasn't enough energy to create space and openings.

Everton's first instinct after losing the ball was to retreat to 2 block's of 4 leaving 1 as an outlet, then compact as the ball came further forward. The problem for me was, as well as what you say there Doug, was ingenuity. We tried and tried to play it through with no avail, and at this point I thought we'd start mixing it up, dragging players out, dinking ball's over the top, the odd long ball with the bigger players getting forward etc. But we didn't, we wanted to do an Arsenal on too many occassions and with teams like Brum and Everton who will park the bus and hopefully get a chance on the break, we need to adopt different and varying tactics.

It's a learning curve I suppose and one that Mancio should be sorting out as we speak. Once is a mistake, twice is just plain ignorance, but 3 times, then that's called incompetence.

SORTED wrote:Even at 2-0 down last night I honestly thought we could go on and win it. At half time I probably would have been pushed to settle for a draw such is my belief in the boys. Take away the resolute way in which Everton defended, some great goalkeeping and the little bit of bad luck we had in front of goal and we could quite easily have turned that around and taken all 3 points. I think we'll learn from it tho and in the long run that will stand us in good stead.

There were quite a few debates saying exactly the same on the concourse at half-time, whereas I was the opposite. Once I'd seen the set-up I just couldn't see us getting past them, and even with the quality on the bench, I still couldn't see how we could do it. We needed to change our approach play but I couldn't envisage the team changing tact to suit the opposition.

Beefymcfc wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

I don't think it's purely down to the obvious lack of heading ability but the two things do go together; if we do get a cross right, nobody scores from it anyway so the man crossing tries something else which goes to shit.

Agree about pace but Balotelli should provide that if we work on it (as happened when he hit the post). Shame we haven't replaced Bellamy though.

I wasn't just referring to a player's speed but more the speed of passing and the movement off the ball. I was looking to see our players buzzing in and around and past the striker(s).I just didn't think we moved the ball quickly enough and for long periods there wasn't enough energy to create space and openings.

Everton's first instinct after losing the ball was to retreat to 2 block's of 4 leaving 1 as an outlet, then compact as the ball came further forward. The problem for me was, as well as what you say there Doug, was ingenuity. We tried and tried to play it through with no avail, and at this point I thought we'd start mixing it up, dragging players out, dinking ball's over the top, the odd long ball with the bigger players getting forward etc. But we didn't, we wanted to do an Arsenal on too many occassions and with teams like Brum and Everton who will park the bus and hopefully get a chance on the break, we need to adopt different and varying tactics.

It's a learning curve I suppose and one that Mancio should be sorting out as we speak. Once is a mistake, twice is just plain ignorance, but 3 times, then that's called incompetence.

I didn't explain it properly Doug but I was also referring to a similar idea re speed but the fact of having players like Balotelli (& bellamy) who can make forward runs at pace means a quick early through ball can bring a chance rather than the more studied & slower sideways movement we often employ.

Regarding Everton's set up; it's designed to stop us because they know our limitations. They defended really narrow because they've watched us & they know we rarely ever succeed in creating goals from wide. They let us have the ball there & blocked the centre. It's a huge gamble by them but it worked. If they'd played the same game v Kendall or Reid's City team, Niall Quinn would pull off the far post, we'd drop a simple ball on his head & he'd nod it into the 6 yard box for players charging in for a simple goal. You can't normally give teams that kind of time & space in those areas but with City you can. It's gone on long enough now & it's time to sort it out.

Ted Hughes wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

I don't think it's purely down to the obvious lack of heading ability but the two things do go together; if we do get a cross right, nobody scores from it anyway so the man crossing tries something else which goes to shit.

Agree about pace but Balotelli should provide that if we work on it (as happened when he hit the post). Shame we haven't replaced Bellamy though.

I wasn't just referring to a player's speed but more the speed of passing and the movement off the ball. I was looking to see our players buzzing in and around and past the striker(s).I just didn't think we moved the ball quickly enough and for long periods there wasn't enough energy to create space and openings.

Everton's first instinct after losing the ball was to retreat to 2 block's of 4 leaving 1 as an outlet, then compact as the ball came further forward. The problem for me was, as well as what you say there Doug, was ingenuity. We tried and tried to play it through with no avail, and at this point I thought we'd start mixing it up, dragging players out, dinking ball's over the top, the odd long ball with the bigger players getting forward etc. But we didn't, we wanted to do an Arsenal on too many occassions and with teams like Brum and Everton who will park the bus and hopefully get a chance on the break, we need to adopt different and varying tactics.

It's a learning curve I suppose and one that Mancio should be sorting out as we speak. Once is a mistake, twice is just plain ignorance, but 3 times, then that's called incompetence.

I didn't explain it properly Doug but I was also referring to a similar idea re speed but the fact of having players like Balotelli (& bellamy) who can make forward runs at pace means a quick early through ball can bring a chance rather than the more studied & slower sideways movement we often employ.

Regarding Everton's set up; it's designed to stop us because they know our limitations. They defended really narrow because they've watched us & they know we rarely ever succeed in creating goals from wide. They let us have the ball there & blocked the centre. It's a huge gamble by them but it worked. If they'd played the same game v Kendall or Reid's City team, Niall Quinn would pull off the far post, we'd drop a simple ball on his head & he'd nod it into the 6 yard box for players charging in for a simple goal. You can't normally give teams that kind of time & space in those areas but with City you can. It's gone on long enough now & it's time to sort it out.

It's quite simple to see and therefore easy to set tactics accordingly for a well drilled squad. We had our chances and they rode their luck, but at the end of the day, we can only say well done to Moyes for getting it right, yet again.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:The 2 things where we were poor ( apart from defending) for me were crossing and pace.I cannot work out why we are so bad at crossing.Is it partly due to the fact that we don't have anyone to cross to that can head a ball?

And it's all very nice to play the ball around and probe for an opening but it needs to be done at pace and for much of the time we were laborious as if expecting it just to happen.

This was the problem, far to lethargic. We need to play at a much much faster tempo in order to break defensive teams down.

Ted Hughes wrote:I didn't explain it properly Doug but I was also referring to a similar idea re speed but the fact of having players like Balotelli (& bellamy) who can make forward runs at pace means a quick early through ball can bring a chance rather than the more studied & slower sideways movement we often employ.

Regarding Everton's set up; it's designed to stop us because they know our limitations. They defended really narrow because they've watched us & they know we rarely ever succeed in creating goals from wide. They let us have the ball there & blocked the centre. It's a huge gamble by them but it worked. If they'd played the same game v Kendall or Reid's City team, Niall Quinn would pull off the far post, we'd drop a simple ball on his head & he'd nod it into the 6 yard box for players charging in for a simple goal. You can't normally give teams that kind of time & space in those areas but with City you can. It's gone on long enough now & it's time to sort it out.

Spot on.
Watching that you could see how narrow they were and while we did look to go around them a couple of times, Tevez in the area from the right fired it across and we nearly got a goal, Silva or AJ from the other side but it got cut out, Zabba from the right also, but they weren't crosses and we didn't do it enough given how narrow they were. Lack of height has to be the reason for no traditional crossing.
Also Doug's point about lack of speed in playing the ball forward is a problem. Watching last night was very similar to watching Barca when they are struggling.. there is almost a collective obstinance that they dont have to do anything other than they normally do, because it usually works, they dont pick up the pace because they think the breakthrough will come, they keep doing the same thing regardless of the fact it isn't working. It is a bit like a collective petulance and refusal to try another way. it is also a kind of arrogance and belief in a way of playing. Arsenal have been accused of the same thing and imo City are in danger of going down the same path.
The short term answer is looking to break forward with speed and throw the methodical approach play out of the window for a while.. at home a least. We are good at passing the ball and that wont go away, we need to go at it and wing it for a while.
On the positive side we are still learning and are not set in our ways, so there is not yet something that we have to try and unlearn. Yet.

Any method is worth trying in order to win, no matter how agriculural.

If you look back over time right back to the 70's even , most of the successful teams over here, even those like Liverpool who based everything on a pass & move game, had another side to them where they peppered the penalty area, got bodies in there & fed off the scraps. So many of their great European nights involved an increase in pressure during the game ending with tin hat time & carnage in the penlaty box. The rags have done the same thing since taking over from them. The passing game is still there but they vary it & take a chance, hitting a ball into dangerous areas.

We're developing a passing game which is as good or better than theirs but they leave us for dead when it comes to pressure football. Tbf there was a short period in the 1st half when we started to find that level; taking pot shots, getting the ball bouncing around in the box, crowd up shouting for pens etc but it fizzled out.