Ten points against Ten points...

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Ten points against Ten points...

Postby BlueinBosnia » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:34 pm

My mate wrote this on his blog on Football365:

http://www.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 50,00.html

Arguing about the problems with the 10 point deduction for going into administration.

Plymouth have become the latest club to incur a ten-point penalty for going into administration, condemning them to a relegation scrap that will most likely demote them to League Two. But is the punishment fair? Jack Felton comes up with ten(ish) arguments against it...

Let me start off by saying that I'm not a fan of any club that's had a points deduction, so there's no bias here. I just think points deductions are an absolutely shocking idea. I don't hate them any less now than I did when they were introduced in 2004. So for every point that gets deducted when a club goes into administration, here's a "point" in return about why it shouldn't happen. And yes, I'm even sure I can come up with 15 or 25 points, for the times when a club gets deducted that amount.

1 - It takes away the sanctity of the table, altering it for everyone else. It is said that the table doesn't lie, but when there is a points deduction for an off-field issue, the table does lie. It is wrong to mismanage clubs so that they go into administration, but not so heinous that it is worth manipulating the table. Clubs have been severely and often criminally mismanaged throughout history, but until 2004 we survived perfectly well without points deductions.

2 - It is a flat punishment that does not have a "rehabilitation" element. A transfer ban, for example, would encourage the clubs in question to change their behaviour in the future, since overspending in transfers is probably what got them into this state.

3 - It punishes the wrong people - the fans, players and manager, who are not responsible for the problem. However, it doesn't punish the owner who was at fault, who is usually long gone by this point and has already demonstrated that he didn't really care about the club anyway. This is enough of a problem even without points deductions: Darlington were relegated to the Conference last season after going into administration the previous year, after a corrupt former owner - who was eventually jailed - bankrupted the club by making the irreversible decision to build a large, usually empty new stadium. Wrexham, meanwhile, were deducted ten points in 2004 (while in League One) for having an owner who deliberately set out to bankrupt the club so that he could sell the ground to a developer. They are now in the Conference; the team that stayed up at their expense was MK Dons, whose history and place in the League are far more questionable, according to most fans.

4 - It's hypocritical. The FA tends to completely ignore obvious mismanagement of clubs when they are not actually bankrupt yet (various Premiership clubs come to mind) but then pretends to be surprised and shocked when the clubs eventually go under. It's ridiculous for the FA to be so laissez-faire until something goes wrong and then try to portray itself as tough when a problem does emerge - you can't have it both ways. Why should a small club be deliberately attacked because of a five-figure unpaid bill, while Manchester United is allowed to continue building up debts that will, at this rate, reach a ten-figure sum?

5 - While the clubs in question should be punished, they also need some degree of protection, as there is often a real danger that they will go out of business. Football is not like other industries, as people actually have genuine loyalty to the 'brands.' Making it likely that the club will be relegated, and therefore making a deliberate point of leaving it for dead, puts the FA in the same category as the guilty owner. Chester City were driven out of existence in such a way last year, punishing fans who had already been punished enough by the way the club was run.

6 - Points deductions are often not taken into account by history, tarnishing some players' and managers' reputations unfairly and tarnishing the achievements of other clubs who were promoted or avoided relegation as a result. Were Luton the worst club in the league when they were deducted 30 points? Are Dundee currently not good enough to go up to the SPL? I don't like Alan Pardew, but were Newcastle fans being fair when they said he "couldn't even take Southampton into the play-offs"?

7 - What would happen if there was an unforeseen crisis that caused a large number of clubs to go bankrupt, which is quite possible in the current economic climate? In 2002, the ITV Digital collapse caused a great many clubs to go into administration, and could potentially have affected more. Under the current rules, this would have made the table into a complete joke - it would have been more like giving clubs a points bonus for not going into administration.

8 - On-field punishments are for on-field offences, such as match fixing, fielding an ineligible player, or failing to turn up to a fixture. Off-field offences should be met with off-field punishments.

9 - On six occasions, deductions of between 15 and 30 points have been applied. This has turned the tables in question (especially the 2008-09 League Two table) into a farce, making it obvious who was going to be relegated and removing the incentive for weaker clubs to play well. What was the point of honouring Luton's League Two fixtures in 2008-09, for example? If any club is felt to deserve a 30-point deduction, it would be far better simply to relegate them to the next division down at the beginning of the season, imposing a stricter punishment but not affecting the table for other clubs.

10 - It's ultimately just a gimmick, of the kind that is abhorred 90% of the time in football. The beauty of football is in the simplicity of the rules. If we can't even embrace goal-line cameras, why do we need to make complicated American-style rules for the league table? Traditionally, everyone can understand the points system, and everyone can see how well each team performed, by looking at the table; that is how things should remain.

And hang on a minute:

11 - Neil Warnock helped to prompt the idea. And then jumped ship as quickly as possible when it happened to a club he was managing.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby patrickblue » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:21 pm

Completely agree, and always have. My main beef has always been point 3, but as the writer says the list could go on and on.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:14 am

The problem of course is not uncomplicated.
I have a memory Leicester City going into administration, abdicating their responsibilities to creditors, and romping to promotion with a clean slate. Why should clubs who "cut their cloth" suffer for running a tight ship, while Leicester were able to keep their squad together but a trail of debt and unpaid businesses in their wake. A transfer embargo wouldn't have helped there.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby john@staustell » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:23 am

Well done Piccs, I was trying to remember who took the piss (were there others?) but couldn't.

As for Plymouth Argyle - obviously my local club and 'second' club - they had a pitch relaid last summer for 150 grand by a local firm, who still await payment. With the position they are in there was never any possibility of paying that unless some mysterious 'investor' turned up.

So they basically swindled at least one local firm. Not sure what the situation is with their catering suppliers, but when organisations start going this way they normally keep changing suppliers, leaving behind a trail of unsettled debts.

So not too much sympathy from me.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby CityFanFromRome » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:20 am

All points are fair and true, especially those regarding the on-field effect it has, as teams likely to get relegated because of a point deduction won't be motivated to play well the rest of the season; this one however is possibly the one point that irks me the most:

4 - It's hypocritical. The FA tends to completely ignore obvious mismanagement of clubs when they are not actually bankrupt yet (various Premiership clubs come to mind) but then pretends to be surprised and shocked when the clubs eventually go under. It's ridiculous for the FA to be so laissez-faire until something goes wrong and then try to portray itself as tough when a problem does emerge - you can't have it both ways. Why should a small club be deliberately attacked because of a five-figure unpaid bill, while Manchester United is allowed to continue building up debts that will, at this rate, reach a ten-figure sum?
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby aaron bond » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:09 pm

CityFanFromRome wrote:All points are fair and true, especially those regarding the on-field effect it has, as teams likely to get relegated because of a point deduction won't be motivated to play well the rest of the season; this one however is possibly the one point that irks me the most:

4 - It's hypocritical. The FA tends to completely ignore obvious mismanagement of clubs when they are not actually bankrupt yet (various Premiership clubs come to mind) but then pretends to be surprised and shocked when the clubs eventually go under. It's ridiculous for the FA to be so laissez-faire until something goes wrong and then try to portray itself as tough when a problem does emerge - you can't have it both ways. Why should a small club be deliberately attacked because of a five-figure unpaid bill, while Manchester United is allowed to continue building up debts that will, at this rate, reach a ten-figure sum?


Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing though providing you can afford the repayments. Most businesses have loans to operate. In general, United's debt is manageable because they generate such high revenue. It will only become an issue for them, if they're not making enough money (which was the case last year if it wasn't for the Ronaldo sale).

But if they can generate enough turnover and afford the repayments on their loans it's not such an issue.

I do understand that's probably not the normal response from a City fan!!! I just think the debt issue gets overplayed a bit too much. You can have a sustainable business whilst taking out loans and having debt. In fact, United have been more successful than ever since the Glazers took over and unfortunately that looks like it might continue this year!
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby Dunnylad » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:23 pm

Chester City were driven out of existence in such a way last year, punishing fans who had already been punished enough by the way the club was run.

Most Chester fans were glad the club was put out of its existence so that they rid themselves of the Chairman they had. They were already preparing for a fan-owned and run club (which is what they successfully have now - top of Evostick League Div1) and towards the end fans were protesting on the pitch to have games abandoned - its the problem that like it or not, football clubs are businesses and as such the only way to punish them is to hit the club and not the individuals - more emphasis must be placed on a robust 'fit & proper test' for owners (not just chairman) of clubs. It boils down to who 'owns' the history of a club, if its with the fans then punish the club and its owners as much as you like, the club may die, but can be resurected by the fans for the fans.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby kinkylola » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:38 pm

i think the biggest issue, which piccs and john brought up, is the trail of local (even non-local) business that get completely shafted because of reckless spending and irresponsible fiscal behavior. I think if a club goes into admin, the owners should be sanctioned in a way that they can never own/manage/be involved with another football club and the club itself should have league/cup licenses withdrawn for the next season, only allowed to reapply with new owners and structure, but not at the same level they were at. Obviously not a cure all with tons of problems, but i'd like to see the people responsible punished with some degree of finality.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby Dunnylad » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:54 pm

kinkylola wrote:i think the biggest issue, which piccs and john brought up, is the trail of local (even non-local) business that get completely shafted because of reckless spending and irresponsible fiscal behavior. I think if a club goes into admin, the owners should be sanctioned in a way that they can never own/manage/be involved with another football club and the club itself should have league/cup licenses withdrawn for the next season, only allowed to reapply with new owners and structure, but not at the same level they were at. Obviously not a cure all with tons of problems, but i'd like to see the people responsible punished with some degree of finality.

Spot on - Stephen Vaughan Snr had already been involved with Barrow AFC, after he left they were thrown out of the Conference due to financial difficulties, not helped by their ground being owned by Vaughan's company (which they eventually got back when it was liquidated). Chester's saving grace was that Chester City Council own the ground, so the fans took it on after the company funded by Vaughan was wound up.

I understand Stephen Vaughan Snr maybe involved in a consortia to buy out Wrexham, the fans and Council are currently trying to buy the ground back from its current owners as there are dangers it maybe sold to developers.

Maybe all this is also a warning to those who think the Sheik should buy CoMS from Manchester City Council?
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby CityFanFromRome » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:03 pm

aaron bond wrote:
CityFanFromRome wrote:All points are fair and true, especially those regarding the on-field effect it has, as teams likely to get relegated because of a point deduction won't be motivated to play well the rest of the season; this one however is possibly the one point that irks me the most:

4 - It's hypocritical. The FA tends to completely ignore obvious mismanagement of clubs when they are not actually bankrupt yet (various Premiership clubs come to mind) but then pretends to be surprised and shocked when the clubs eventually go under. It's ridiculous for the FA to be so laissez-faire until something goes wrong and then try to portray itself as tough when a problem does emerge - you can't have it both ways. Why should a small club be deliberately attacked because of a five-figure unpaid bill, while Manchester United is allowed to continue building up debts that will, at this rate, reach a ten-figure sum?


Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing though providing you can afford the repayments. Most businesses have loans to operate. In general, United's debt is manageable because they generate such high revenue. It will only become an issue for them, if they're not making enough money (which was the case last year if it wasn't for the Ronaldo sale).

But if they can generate enough turnover and afford the repayments on their loans it's not such an issue.

I do understand that's probably not the normal response from a City fan!!! I just think the debt issue gets overplayed a bit too much. You can have a sustainable business whilst taking out loans and having debt. In fact, United have been more successful than ever since the Glazers took over and unfortunately that looks like it might continue this year!

I see your point; however, I find it hard to believe that their debt is under control just because they generate high revenues; I could believe it if they didn't spend a single penny in the market and instead tried to reduce their debt selling their best players, but a figure like that isn't going to be repayed by TV incomes, shirts, CL incomes and gates, becuase those same sources of money have to pay their wage bill too; there's no way enough money remains after that to sustain the repayments, which is why the Glazers went in search of new investors last year through that fundraising sort of thing they did around the world.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby john68 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:53 pm

Nobody seems bothered how by overspending on players that they can't afford. also warps the league tables at the expense of clubs who they compete with, who keep their finances in order.
It is more glaringly obvious in Rugby League. Widnes spent a shedload they couldn't afford, it won them the World Club Challenge and then they went tits up.
Halifax spent a fortune they hadn't got and those players they couldn't afford meant they escaped relegation. Salford kept their finances in order and went down. Halifax committed the crime but Salford paid the price.

Bad housekeeping also has implications for other clubs while it is happening.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:04 am

john68 wrote:Nobody seems bothered how by overspending on players that they can't afford. also warps the league tables at the expense of clubs who they compete with, who keep their finances in order.
It is more glaringly obvious in Rugby League. Widnes spent a shedload they couldn't afford, it won them the World Club Challenge and then they went tits up.
Halifax spent a fortune they hadn't got and those players they couldn't afford meant they escaped relegation. Salford kept their finances in order and went down. Halifax committed the crime but Salford paid the price.

Bad housekeeping also has implications for other clubs while it is happening.


That was the point I was trying to make John. Similarly, when clubs have been prevented from being promoted on the basis of their ground not being up to certain criteria, we hear the same "matters on the pitch" argument. But if a club chooses to spend on players whilst another doesn't, because it is bringing it's ground up to the required level, they have gained an advantage on the pitch at the expense of league rules. They can have no complaints.
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Re: Ten points against Ten points...

Postby Dameerto » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:54 am

It was brought in to stop twunts like Ken Bates from pulling a fast one near the end of the season and deliberately sidestepping any financial obligations to creditors, thereby sh*ting all over small/local businesses even more than this rule leads to.
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