The Yaya Toure 'Munich' song

[john68]

1950,
I am not apologising for anything or anyone...That was just pretty phrase that is nonsense but you thought would have some impact...well it doesn't and you wasted your time writing it.

Next...Are you drunk?...You take it sentence, split it in half, agree with it then disagree with it. mmake you mind up.
Next...If a person mindfully uses Munich or Mune, he has done so because he feels (for whatever reason) it is right for him to do so. That is all part of the same issue and not a sidetrack.
Next...The main part of the reasoning that those who mindfully use Munich or Mune is because they are angered by the bigger disrespect shown by the rags to their own dead and also what they see is the complicity in that disrespect by the media. That is the major factor behind their use of the term and therefore has to be considered.
It is not simply good enough to make a judgement without understanding the reasons behind it.

The City club have been fully aware of the references to Munich and Mune in City songs for many many years and have never made any comment about it. The sports media have also been well aware of those references and songs. It is wholly relevent in this debate to ask "Why are the media making it an issue, to beat City over the head with now?" and "If the City club were so bothered about the moral rights and wrongs of those references and songs, why did they not make any efforts to eradicate them many many years ago when they began?" I think you'll probably find that the club are simply responding to the media pressure. Next question..."Whose pressure are the media responding to?"

Morals my arse....Nobody gave two fucks or sips until the media decided to grab it with both hands in the last week or so.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Certainly strange, the hand wringing going on now all of a sudden. It's not even like there was a hearty rendition of "who's that lying on the runway" or "they had to invent an oxygen tent". Just a reference to Munich in a a song about Yaya's goal at Wembley.
Personally I prefer..
U N I T E D
We beat you at Wemb-er-lee
With a knick knack paddy whack
Give a dog a bone
Yaya Toure sent you home

[Original Dub]

It still doesn't matter if its right or wrong, as I said already, the media have their claws in it and it will snowball each time its heard until we become known as the scumbag fans who celebrate death every week - no matter whether that's the intention or not.

If this keeps happening, its gonna be bad for the club

[righthererightnow]

I dont know if this has been mentioned in the previous 14 pages as ive not gone through it all.
But what would your reactions be if united fans started chanting Foé, Foé, Foé.
I for one would be disgusted and i dont think its right for us to mention the word munich and i would be horrified if they sung about marc vivien foé

Just my tuppence worth

cheers

[Chinners]

I dont know if this has been mentioned in the previous 14 pages as ive not gone through it all.
But what would your reactions be if united fans started chanting Foé, Foé, Foé.
I for one would be disgusted and i dont think its right for us to mention the word munich and i would be horrified if they sung about marc vivien foé

Just my tuppence worth

cheers

Maybe you should read through the thread then .... ;)

[1950]

1950,
I am not apologising for anything or anyone...That was just pretty phrase that is nonsense but you thought would have some impact...well it doesn't and you wasted your time writing it.

Next...Are you drunk?...You take it sentence, split it in half, agree with it then disagree with it. mmake you mind up.

Am I drunk? Are you senile? I agree that everyone has the right to make their own mind up. I disagree that's what this is all about. How is that conflicting?

Next...If a person mindfully uses Munich or Mune, he has done so because he feels (for whatever reason) it is right for him to do so. That is all part of the same issue and not a sidetrack.

That goes without saying. A person making a conscious decision is convinced of its rightness. How about you explain us the alphabet next?

Next...The main part of the reasoning that those who mindfully use Munich or Mune is because they are angered by the bigger disrespect shown by the rags to their own dead and also what they see is the complicity in that disrespect by the media. That is the major factor behind their use of the term and therefore has to be considered.
It is not simply good enough to make a judgement without understanding the reasons behind it.

These reasons are well understood & they have repeatedly been deemed inadequate justification for the usage of the word "munich/mune" by a number of people.

The City club have been fully aware of the references to Munich and Mune in City songs for many many years and have never made any comment about it. The sports media have also been well aware of those references and songs. It is wholly relevent in this debate to ask "Why are the media making it an issue, to beat City over the head with now?" and "If the City club were so bothered about the moral rights and wrongs of those references and songs, why did they not make any efforts to eradicate them many many years ago when they began?" I think you'll probably find that the club are simply responding to the media pressure. Next question..."Whose pressure are the media responding to?"

Morals my arse....Nobody gave two fucks or sips until the media decided to grab it with both hands in the last week or so.

Times change, old man. See: monkey noises. Seems the time has come to eradicate this words usage in the stands.

Who cares if the media, the pope or Osama Bin Laden initiated the debate. It doesn't make it any less necessary or appropriate.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Ok, can we fucking stop comparing using M-word to racial intolerance? Rags are not a fucking race.

[Chinners]

Ok, can we fucking stop comparing using M-word to racial intolerance? Rags are not a fucking race.

hmm, thats an interesting point ... they are certainly a breed of ther own thou

[john68]

1950,
Senile?...Possibly....Drunk?....You fail to answer....:-)

Wonderful..."A person making a conscious decision is convinced of its rightness...That statement, coupled with a persdon having the right to make his own mind up...fully deals with the morality of the issue...I totally agree.

Conversely, those well understood reasons are considered to be total justification for their usage of the terms Munich and Mune.

Chuck the monkey stuff out of it...it is irrelevent and merely clouds the issue.

Chucking the "old man" into the post along with the "times change" is just a useless jibe. Like the above, it is useless to the argument. My sagacity is quite up to date and it has the full backing of history...as I believe is yours.

Quyite obviously, to those who "mindfully" use those terms, the time to eradicate this word's usage hasn't yet arrived. They still feel comfortable using it.

Personally, I don't care who initiated the debate, it is a useful debate to have, very necessary and very appropriate. It should have been debated many years ago. However, as it was the media who did kick start the debate and cause the reaction from other City fans and the club itself, their motives in digging this issue up and the motives behind the manner of the club's reaction are inexorably linked to the debate and should also be discussed.

[Chinners]

Indeed John ... "they're just a media full of munichs, media full of ...."

[1950]

1950,
Senile?...Possibly....Drunk?....You fail to answer....:-)

Not yet.

Chuck the monkey stuff out of it...it is irrelevent and merely clouds the issue.

I am in no way comparing both issues, merely pointing out that perception can change, as can the degree of acceptance. It is relevant to your point about the munich reference being around for a long time.

Chucking the "old man" into the post along with the "times change" is just a useless jibe. Like the above, it is useless to the argument. My sagacity is quite up to date and it has the full backing of history...as I believe is yours.

Granted, but times do change. See above.

Quyite obviously, to those who "mindfully" use those terms, the time to eradicate this word's usage hasn't yet arrived. They still feel comfortable using it.

That's where those who condemn its usage, including the club, come in. Their duty is to make the rest feel as uncomfortable with the terms as themselves.

Personally, I don't care who initiated the debate, it is a useful debate to have, very necessary and very appropriate. It should have been debated many years ago. However, as it was the media who did kick start the debate and cause the reaction from other City fans and the club itself, their motives in digging this issue up and the motives behind the manner of the club's reaction are inexorably linked to the debate and should also be discussed.

They should be discussed, but they should not be abused as an excuse. I'm not saying that you did abuse them. You did however contribute to others' excuses with your emphasis on the media.

[john68]

1950,
I grant you that some of my arguments may have served as an excuse for some to hide behind and that was never my intention. If they mindlessly use the terms, then by doing so mindlessly, they define themselves as mindless.
I only joined the debate at the point where members from here who I know to be mindful, thinking and quite moral people were being attacked. I fully understood why they use the terms and was defending their right to hold that opinion.

I don't however agree about the actions of the club having a duty to make those who chant Munich feel uncomfortable. The point I made earler was that for many years, the club have known, accepted those chants and done zero to stop them. I find it more than a coincidence that the only time the club decides to speak out is after a media attack. more to do with being uncomfortable about poor publicity than any moral issues. The argument should be based solely on moral judgements and not on the temporary whims of a few hack journalists, seeking to sensationalise the issue.

It would be great if those who do sing Munich and Mune took the decision to stop.
It would also be great if the rags stopped disrespecting their own dead.
...and the media started to report this issue in a fair and balanced way.....Perfect World???....

[twosips]

Is it not possible that the club spoke out not just cause the media attacked (though that's obviously something to do with) but because they were louder than ever before? It's something worth considering.

We've been the little team for years, and we're no longer that little City ignored by everyone. Everyone looks at us - everything we do will be analysed by the press and everyone else connected to the game. And if these chants get louder, which they are doing, then all the good work the marketing team put in behind the scenes will be potentially thrown away. What massive company would want to be linked to a club that garners a reputation as having fans hated and disliked by most? This club more than most needs to make money badly. We've got rules to adhere to, and we can't have little things like become a potentially huge problem, whether you agree with the validity of the chants or not.

Tis definitely worth considering...

[john68]

Is it not possible that the club spoke out not just cause the media attacked (though that's obviously something to do with) but because they were louder than ever before? It's something worth considering.

We've been the little team for years, and we're no longer that little City ignored by everyone. Everyone looks at us - everything we do will be analysed by the press and everyone else connected to the game. And if these chants get louder, which they are doing, then all the good work the marketing team put in behind the scenes will be potentially thrown away. What massive company would want to be linked to a club that garners a reputation as having fans hated and disliked by most? This club more than most needs to make money badly. We've got rules to adhere to, and we can't have little things like become a potentially huge problem, whether you agree with the validity of the chants or not.

Tis definitely worth considering...

I very much doubt that those songs the other night were any louder than many many other similar chants. I have heard them much louder many times myself. Songs like a Town full of Munichs have resounded around both Eastlands and Maine Road on many occasions. I don't think that had anything to do with it.
What makes you think that by singing these songs, it has or will make us hated and disliked by most? I don't think the moral values of City fans is any different than any other fans. I think that most clubs have that could be considered just as distasteful.
So is your argument based on morals or City's ability to make money? God forbid that you join the two.

[twosips]

Calm down mate - we all know my moral stance regarding this - and that's exactly what my concerns are. I'm not worried about what Mr Marketing man thinks.... I'm merely suggesting that it's a possible motivation for the club, as well as the moral stance. You can see that surely? You'd have to be really naive to think someone on the board/in the pr team wouldn't be thinking - 'bollocks - this really doesn't do our reputation any good'...

Regarding the chants - it definitely seemed the loudest i've heard it for a long time - definitely the loudest in recent history. Not talking about the Maine Road days here.

Maybe our morals are not any worse, no, but as I said, we're a bigger club and the media will pick up on it if it continues to be louder, and we all know easily manipulated most fans are - if the press and everyone else make a big deal of it then other fans will think we're scum. Simple really.

That's not an opinion ^^^

Just what I see as a likely outcome of events.

[Kladze]

Calm down mate - we all know my moral stance regarding this - and that's exactly what my concerns are. I'm not worried about what Mr Marketing man thinks.... I'm merely suggesting that it's a possible motivation for the club, as well as the moral stance. You can see that surely? You'd have to be really naive to think someone on the board/in the pr team wouldn't be thinking - 'bollocks - this really doesn't do our reputation any good'...

[highlight]Regarding the chants - it definitely seemed the loudest i've heard it for a long time - definitely the loudest in recent history[/highlight]. Not talking about the Maine Road days here.

Maybe our morals are not any worse, no, but as I said, we're a bigger club and the media will pick up on it if it continues to be louder, and we all know easily manipulated most fans are - if the press and everyone else make a big deal of it then other fans will think we're scum. Simple really.

That's not an opinion ^^^

Just what I see as a likely outcome of events.

Regardless of whether it was louder, or not, the fact is that our club is reaching a bigger worldwide audience now, and if the success we all wish for comes our way that audience will only grow bigger still. One cannot expect many of them to understand the intricacies of why some people might chant 'Munich' just as a reference to United's post plane crash actions.

They will ONLY see it as a reference to the crash itself and the personal tragedies associated with it. It could well have the perverse effect of making the United brand even bigger - God forbid.

[twosips]

I agree!

[Blue Toy]

Is it morally correct to sing about building a bonfire and "burning the fucking lot"?

OK, so they're not singing about an event that's actually ever happened, but surely it's no better morally than our Yaya song?

Munich offends due to those who died. My guess is that their bonfire song would hurt, upset and disrespect any of the clubs' fans mentioned in the song that possibly have lost loved ones in fires?