The United Kingdom and its leagues

[dazby]

Does it need reform? Why are you different countries and yet have the one government? Why do you not allow Scottish Clubs to play in England yet some Welsh clubs are? Why aren't there big Irish clubs? What the hell is going on over there?

Could you have a United Kingdom Premier league with 3 Scottish clubs, two Welsh and Irish and a Northern Irish or whatever?

Fix it please. How do you do it?

[Dazzacity]

Does anyone actually know an Irishman that actually supports an Irish club?? We moan about glory hunters and such, but their reasons for not following an Irish club will be 'because Irish clubs are crap' . Same difference if you ask me.

Personally, the likes of Cardiff and Swansea shouldnt be in the ENGLISH premier league. Rather than jumping ship, they should try and think of ways of making their own leagues better and more exciting.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

It's funny that this has been debated amongst the media again, no one really gave a shit when Swansea were fucking around in Div 2 did they?

Fact is Swansea have been part of the English Leauges since 1920 and have earned the right to play Prem football.

If Celtic, Rangers et al join us then it's only right that they should join at the lowest tier but the opportunity should then be open to all Welsh and Scottish teams - again a full reform would be needed of what is already an over subscribed system.

Personally, the likes of Cardiff and Swansea shouldnt be in the ENGLISH premier league. Rather than jumping ship, they should try and think of ways of making their own leagues better and more exciting.

Again, I don't think any of us are in a position to comment on the state of the Welsh leagues over 90 years ago (John maybe?) and who jumped what ship. Saying that they shouldn't be in the English system now is just nationalist twaddle.

[Dameerto]

First you hold a public referendum saying some Ausie thinks they should do without their respective national leagues and teams and form one united set of leagues with a single national 'team GB' - if you avoid the lynchmob and enough agree with you, you then have to persuade the respective FA's that they should disolve and reform under one GB association.

[BlueinBosnia]

Does anyone actually know an Irishman that actually supports an Irish club?? We moan about glory hunters and such, but their reasons for not following an Irish club will be 'because Irish clubs are crap' . Same difference if you ask me.

Personally, the likes of Cardiff and Swansea shouldnt be in the ENGLISH premier league. Rather than jumping ship, they should try and think of ways of making their own leagues better and more exciting.

Those teams were in the English League well before a Welsh League existed, and both of them have more fans watching them at every home game than the entire League of Wales Premier does combined. Their infrastructure is too far ahead for them to realistically play in the Welsh league (it's really a bit like asking AS Monaco to play in the Monagasque league). There are actually seven or eight Welsh teams playing in the English football pyramid, who refuse to enter the Welsh system for fear it will bankrupt them. Likewise, there was one team in the WPL based in England for a few seasons, until they relocated (can't remember who now, but it was in the early 90s).

I know a few people who support Irish or NI football teams, same with Welsh Prem (although most of those are glory-hunters, who only watch their local club when it's winning).

The reason we are assured footballing independence from one another is because of some agreement in the past, which resulted in our four football associations and FIFA running the game. For any rule change to occur, those five constituent bodies have to vote, with FIFA having four votes. For a rule to be changed, at least one of the home nations must agree to it.

[BlueinBosnia]

LookMum- the Welsh league has only existed since the late 70s, AFAIK. Before that, there were local amateur leagues (Jock Stein played for my local club in the 1920s).

[sandman]

Does anyone actually know an Irishman that actually supports an Irish club?? We moan about glory hunters and such, but their reasons for not following an Irish club will be 'because Irish clubs are crap' . Same difference if you ask me.

The fact that the irish clubs are so crap could easily stem from the fact that so many of them would rather watch the premier league than get there arse down to their local club and put their money into their own league.

I also despise the fact that the welsh league is so poor when their two best clubs are in our league, it would improve the Europa massively if we had faced Cardiff or Swansea instead of TNS. Teams in the English league should have been seeded for the Welsh League accordingly upon its foundation.

[lets all have a disco]

If Celtic and Rangers want in they can start at the bottom and work their way up.

They can fuck right off if they think they are going straight in the top division.

[Dameerto]

LookMum- the Welsh league has only existed since the late 70s, AFAIK. Before that, there were local amateur leagues (Jock Stein played for my local club in the 1920s).

There's been a Welsh FA almost as long as Scottish/English though. They developed before flight as well as before cars became so widespread, basically inertia has kept them as individual associations rather than moving with the times.

[BlueinBosnia]

LookMum- the Welsh league has only existed since the late 70s, AFAIK. Before that, there were local amateur leagues (Jock Stein played for my local club in the 1920s).

There's been a Welsh FA almost as long as Scottish/English though. They developed before flight as well as before cars became so widespread, basically inertia has kept them as individual associations rather than moving with the times.

But wasn't the Welsh FA set up by the English just to provide a bit of regular competition in the days before flight and cars made international games further afield more feasible? Also, back in those days, cross-Wales travel was nigh on impossible, putting a league out of the question. Before anyone had the idea to set up a League of Wales, there were a dozen or so teams playing in the pro and semi-pro levels of the English pyramid, most of whom didn't want to leave to head into uncharted territories. The big clubs had nothing to gain, and the small ones had a lot to lose; rather than playing in, say, the Cheshire Combined League against teams in a 40 mile radius, they'd have to take trips down to Milford Haven- about 6 hours away after Dr. Beeching had had his way.

[DoomMerchant]

If Celtic and Rangers want in they can start at the bottom and work their way up.

They can fuck right off if they think they are going straight in the top division.

Blue Square North then?

agreed.

[Dameerto]

LookMum- the Welsh league has only existed since the late 70s, AFAIK. Before that, there were local amateur leagues (Jock Stein played for my local club in the 1920s).

There's been a Welsh FA almost as long as Scottish/English though. They developed before flight as well as before cars became so widespread, basically inertia has kept them as individual associations rather than moving with the times.

But wasn't the Welsh FA set up by the English just to provide a bit of regular competition in the days before flight and cars made international games further afield more feasible? Also, back in those days, cross-Wales travel was nigh on impossible, putting a league out of the question. Before anyone had the idea to set up a League of Wales, there were a dozen or so teams playing in the pro and semi-pro levels of the English pyramid, most of whom didn't want to leave to head into uncharted territories. The big clubs had nothing to gain, and the small ones had a lot to lose; rather than playing in, say, the Cheshire Combined League against teams in a 40 mile radius, they'd have to take trips down to Milford Haven- about 6 hours away after Dr. Beeching had had his way.

Wales has had it's own domestic cup for as long as there's been a Welsh FA, and apparently football used to be more popular in Wales than Rugby during the 19th century.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

It's not all one way; Berwick play in the Scottish League.

All this will be resolved when Scotland becomes an independent nation and the UK is broken up.

[BlueinBosnia]

Wales has had it's own domestic cup for as long as there's been a Welsh FA, and apparently football used to be more popular in Wales than Rugby during the 19th century.

I don't get your point here. The FA Cup was founded 20 years or so before the Football League, too. I'm not saying football wasn't popular, and that they were 'forced' to make a national team, but that the whole idea of a football association for each home nation, with the idea of organizing international matches, stemmed from England. None of this affects the fact that there was no Welsh league until much, much later.

Edit: the League of Wales was established in 1992.

[BlueinBosnia]

It's not all one way; Berwick play in the Scottish League.

All this will be resolved when Scotland becomes an independent nation and the UK is broken up.

Oswestry, it is, that played in the Welsh league despite being English.

[Dameerto]

Wales has had it's own domestic cup for as long as there's been a Welsh FA, and apparently football used to be more popular in Wales than Rugby during the 19th century.

I don't get your point here. The FA Cup was founded 20 years or so before the Football League, too. I'm not saying football wasn't popular, and that they were 'forced' to make a national team, but that the whole idea of a football association for each home nation, with the idea of organizing international matches, stemmed from England. None of this affects the fact that there was no Welsh league until much, much later.

Edit: the League of Wales was established in 1992.

My point is that I don't think the formation of the Welsh FA was purely for English/Scottish reasons, there was SOME self interest (mainly in the north) invloved too. I was addressing the sentance I had highlighted in bold from your post since you asked me a question.

[DoomMerchant]

one historical note of importance...because even tho ole man 68 doesn't think i know anything about football beyond what Wikipedia might tell me of years gone by...here's an interesting titbit i read about in a fantastic book about the history of Football a couple years ago.

most of the early conference and cup successes came from teams largely loaded to the gills with Scottish players. When that started to really shift towards English-borne players i cannae recall but i bet the first 30 years of conference football had their fair share of Scots in them and they dominated the game.

Why? historically it was for several reasons -- while there was an undercurrent of work ethic on the pitch at play which belied their success as it was noted that the Scottish were harder workers when it came to football, with many of the Englishmen of the time preferring Rugby as the more "refined" of the two ball sports, but the most dominating reason at the time was because you couldn't make a professional living at it as an Englishman, whereas clearly the bar was lower for your average Scottish man in the 19th century. The Scottish treated an amateur game professionally, and it was their success which helped create a truly professional class of footballer, created huge fan interest, got mammoth stadia built and created the drama that many of your great or great great granddads probably enjoyed.

"English" football was built on the back of Scottish players, and without them there wouldn't be anything like we have today or it would have taken a much longer and more circuitous path.

Broken Britain..even in say 1905 or so.

cheers

[BlueinBosnia]

Wales has had it's own domestic cup for as long as there's been a Welsh FA, and apparently football used to be more popular in Wales than Rugby during the 19th century.

I don't get your point here. The FA Cup was founded 20 years or so before the Football League, too. I'm not saying football wasn't popular, and that they were 'forced' to make a national team, but that the whole idea of a football association for each home nation, with the idea of organizing international matches, stemmed from England. None of this affects the fact that there was no Welsh league until much, much later.

Edit: the League of Wales was established in 1992.

My point is that I don't think the formation of the Welsh FA was purely for English/Scottish reasons, there was SOME self interest (mainly in the north) invloved too. I was addressing the sentance I had highlighted in bold from your post since you asked me a question.

Apologies. I find it difficult to distinguish bold text on my laptop, and didn't notice it when quoting.

[Dameerto]

Apologies. I find it difficult to distinguish bold text on my laptop, and didn't notice it when quoting.

Aaaaah, I was debating whether to change the text colour but decided against it. The sentance was "But wasn't the Welsh FA set up by the English just to provide a bit of regular competition in the days before flight and cars made international games further afield more feasible?"

[BlueinBosnia]

Apologies. I find it difficult to distinguish bold text on my laptop, and didn't notice it when quoting.

Aaaaah, I was debating whether to change the text colour but decided against it. The sentance was "But wasn't the Welsh FA set up by the English just to provide a bit of regular competition in the days before flight and cars made international games further afield more feasible?"

Sorry, I clarified it in a later post. Not 'set up', per se, but 'influenced'. Turns out, it was more Welsh people living in England who mooted the suggestion, according to Wikipedia.