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[urlnp=http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199]THIS[/urlnp] e-petition is currently doing the rounds and is aiming for 100000 signatures.

I know this might not be a popular view but I wish they would just let it drop and let those who lost their lives rest in peace.

There has been enquiry after enquiry after enquiry and they all say the same thing;

Liverpool fans created a crush outside the turnstiles
A decision was taken to open the gates to alleviate the pressure
The incoming Liverpool fans piled into the central pen which was already over-populated
96 people lost their lives

There seems to be an ongoing clamour to find somebody to blame, why? Can't it just have been a terrible course of events without any 1 person being at fault??

I know it's in scousers' DNA to never accept any kind of blame and to play the victim at every opportunity but this need of theirs to point the finger at somebody, anybody, to exonerate themselves from any blame whatsoever is quite sick in my humble opinion.

The enquiries say a lot more than that.
The police chief froze.
The ground was allocated the semi on a nod and a wink.
Much safety work wasn't completed.
The police there put more effort into stopping the incoming crowd gibbing into the seats rather than directing them away from the central pens that were full.
The police tried to cover it up.
It could have been us there that day if we'd had a good side.
It's lazy and untrue to blame the scousers. I can't stand them, but it was NOT their fault.
There but for the grace of God.

I was thinking of posting that on Teamtalk when they asked for our help yesterday, but thought best shut up.

The event was one of several appallingly managed events/major emergencies prior to the development of Emergency procedures etc after the late 90s. Before that they just didn't exist.

You cannot blame an uncontrolled crowd for something which should have been controlled. The senior police officer was obviously number 1 to blame, but then he was acting in a system that put him in something of an impossible situation.

Other events which fell into this sort of area were Lockerbie, Hatfield, another rail crash I cant't recall, and the football disasters.

Nothing is going to bring these people back, and one suspects elements are just looking for some word out of place from a Thatcher cabinet in discussion.

Another word on emergencies at that time I picked up at a Cabinet Office course - did you know at Lockerbie someone ordered every duty ambulance in Glasgow - 90 - to drive south all the way down to the incident, leaving Glasgow with no cover? And there were 2 injured people.

Stunning thinking, but seemed like a good idea at the time.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:The enquiries say a lot more than that.
The police chief froze.
The ground was allocated the semi on a nod and a wink.
Much safety work wasn't completed.
The police there put more effort into stopping the incoming crowd gibbing into the seats rather than directing them away from the central pens that were full.
The police tried to cover it up.
It could have been us there that day if we'd had a good side.
It's lazy and untrue to blame the scousers. I can't stand them, but it was NOT their fault.
There but for the grace of God.

Would you say that the Liverpool fans are completely blameless? Because that seems to be what they want the next enquiry to show.

It was the LIverpool fans who created the crush outside the turnstiles, it was Liverpool fans - and lots of them - who went into the ground without tickets (why were they even in the crush outside the turnstiles of they didn't have tickets??) and it was the Liverpool fans who continued to pile into the central pen even when it must have been very very obvious that it was already extremely overcrowded!

Liverpool fans are to blame, just as others are.

I just don't see the point in trying to heap all the blame onto one person, or one body of people, when it is bloody obvious that it was caused by a tragic string of events.

Why would it be obvious that the pen was full if you were outside?
Who says that there were hordes of people with no tickets?
Neither were the vast majority of fans pissed, another lie from the police.

Not enough turnstiles to get everybody in on time.
Nobody to direct people way from the problem area.
A ground where safety recommendations hadn't been acted on.
A police chief who froze.
When he did act it was to treat it as a public disorder event rather than a potential disaster.
A cover up afterwards.
As a football fan who has been to big games, I'm surprised you are not more keen for the truth about crowd control to be exposed.
The F A, Sheff Wednesday and the police must shoulder a great deal of blame.
The lie has always blamed Liverpool fans.

I think the blame lies all round. If thousands of fans turn up without tickets, jump the gates etc then of course you have to look at the organisation (or lack of it) by the authorites. The fans however also have to look at themselves as well. It's like the recent rioters blaming it on the police because they were not about to stop the looting ... risible

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Why would it be obvious that the pen was full if you were outside?

Once they were inside the ground and trying to get into the central pen it would have been very obvious that it was already over-crowded, why not just try another pen?

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Who says that there were hordes of people with no tickets?

Liverpool fans on the pitch during and after the disaster where telling the tv cameras. It is also mentioned in the final report by Lord Taylor, as was the problem with ticket touts (who should also shoulder some of the blame)

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Neither were the vast majority of fans pissed, another lie from the police.

They claim that the "vast majority" of fans were pissed? That's a new one on me, if true it's a disgusting accusation.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Not enough turnstiles to get everybody in on time.
Nobody to direct people way from the problem area.
A ground where safety recommendations hadn't been acted on.
A police chief who froze.
When he did act it was to treat it as a public disorder event rather than a potential disaster.
A cover up afterwards.
As a football fan who has been to big games, I'm surprised you are not more keen for the truth about crowd control to be exposed.
The F A, Sheff Wednesday and the police must shoulder a great deal of blame.
The lie has always blamed Liverpool fans.

As a football fan I have been to Hillsborough since the disaster and since it was made all-seater. I have sat in the Leppings Lane and witnessed thousands of fans trying to exit through 3 narrow tunnels after the game. I will never go back because, in my opinion, it is clearly still not safe!

I do want the truth, but I believe the truth that was published in 1990 and don't see the point in keep asking for another version of the truth just because the findings didn't completely exonerate the Liverpool fans

Chinners wrote:It's like the recent rioters blaming it on the police because they were not about to stop the looting ... risible

A bit of an extreme analogy but I agree with the sentiment.

Why shouldn't there be full disclosure of the documents? If the truth is already out there, what's to hide?

If this had been City fans and any of my relatives, I would expect nothing less.

saulman wrote:Why shouldn't there be full disclosure of the documents? If the truth is already out there, what's to hide?

What good would it do? Lord Taylor had access to the documents when making his report so why not just accept that?

What if the 'hidden' documents show that Liverpool fans were to blame after all?

This is really annoying you isn't it KK

King Kev wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Why would it be obvious that the pen was full if you were outside?

Once they were inside the ground and trying to get into the central pen it would have been very obvious that it was already over-crowded, why not just try another pen?

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Who says that there were hordes of people with no tickets?

Liverpool fans on the pitch during and after the disaster where telling the tv cameras. It is also mentioned in the final report by Lord Taylor, as was the problem with ticket touts (who should also shoulder some of the blame)

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Neither were the vast majority of fans pissed, another lie from the police.

They claim that the "vast majority" of fans were pissed? That's a new one on me, if true it's a disgusting accusation.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Not enough turnstiles to get everybody in on time.
Nobody to direct people way from the problem area.
A ground where safety recommendations hadn't been acted on.
A police chief who froze.
When he did act it was to treat it as a public disorder event rather than a potential disaster.
A cover up afterwards.
As a football fan who has been to big games, I'm surprised you are not more keen for the truth about crowd control to be exposed.
The F A, Sheff Wednesday and the police must shoulder a great deal of blame.
The lie has always blamed Liverpool fans.

As a football fan I have been to Hillsborough since the disaster and since it was made all-seater. I have sat in the Leppings Lane and witnessed thousands of fans trying to exit through 3 narrow tunnels after the game. I will never go back because, in my opinion, it is clearly still not safe!

I do want the truth, but I believe the truth that was published in 1990 and don't see the point in keep asking for another version of the truth just because the findings didn't completely exonerate the Liverpool fans

When you were outside the tunnels into the Kippax, did you know what it would be like inside?
When you're at a match do you know whether there are a lot of people with or without tickets? Do you have ESP or X ray vision? Do you know fans who travelled to Wembley hoping to buy a ticket outside? I do.
Yes the police did blame drunken fans. Blood alchohol levels were taken of all the victims and the vast vast majority were sober.
The build up outside was down to the ground not having enough turnstiles open. It doesn't matter that it was Liverpool fans here, it would have been the same for any set of supporters, they would just have been wearing different colours.


>>>>> I will never go back because, in my opinion, it is clearly still not safe!
You put in a nutshell there. You didn't think it was safe....... and guess what? It wasn't. Then somehow you blame Liverpool fans. Defeated by your own words there KK

Chinners wrote:I think the blame lies all round. If thousands of fans turn up without tickets, jump the gates etc then of course you have to look at the organisation (or lack of it) by the authorites. The fans however also have to look at themselves as well. It's like the recent rioters blaming it on the police because they were not about to stop the looting ... risible

Spot on Chinners.

King Kev wrote:

saulman wrote:Why shouldn't there be full disclosure of the documents? If the truth is already out there, what's to hide?

What good would it do? Lord Taylor had access to the documents when making his report so why not just accept that?

What if the 'hidden' documents show that Liverpool fans were to blame after all?

Whether it does any good is irrelevant. There should be no reason to withold such information from grieving families.

If it were my son that had been killed I would want to see for myself what happened. There have been enough whitewashes in the past, I know I wouldn't trust any inquiry without being in possession of all the facts myself.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:When you were outside the tunnels into the Kippax, did you know what it would be like inside?

If the tunnels leading into that part of the stand were extremely packed (as they must have been) then I reckon I could have worked out that the part of the the stand the tunnel was leading to was also extremely packed!

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:When you're at a match do you know whether there are a lot of people with or without tickets? Do you have ESP or X ray vision?

I wasn't blaming people for not knowing if others had tickets or not, I was blaming those who turned up, and gained entry, without tickets. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Yes the police did blame drunken fans. Blood alchohol levels were taken of all the victims and the vast vast majority were sober.

I have already agreed that it was a disgusting accusation. I think you may have made up the bit about police accusing the "vast majority" of Liverpool fans though.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:The build up outside was down to the ground not having enough turnstiles open. It doesn't matter that it was Liverpool fans here, it would have been the same for any set of supporters, they would just have been wearing different colours.

Agreed, but I suspect that fans of other clubs may have behaved differently. I have been in crushes amongst City fans in the past and they were usually sorted out by a few sensible ones directing others away from the crush and the majority of fans following those directions.
A prime example was on the platform of Lokeren station after the game there. We got there early and by the time the train was due there were far too many people behind us on the platform. Thankfully a few City fans took it upon themselves to direct fans behind us to other parts of the platform whilst myself and a few others linked arms at the front and managed to hold the crowd back whilst the train pulled in. We should never have been put in that position but we sorted it out between us.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:>>>>> I will never go back because, in my opinion, it is clearly still not safe!
You put in a nutshell there. You didn't think it was safe....... and guess what? It wasn't. Then somehow you blame Liverpool fans. Defeated by your own words there KK

Not sure how I have defeated myself by saying that I believe the ground to be unsafe. If I had maintained that the ground was safe I would see your point, but I didn't!

The ground was partly to blame, the police were partly to blame, the Liverpool fans were partly to blame.

Disclosure of all information about such things should be the norm imo, why? because it is about learning lessons and anything kept hidden for reasons of not embarrassing someone or some institution is leaving gaps in what can be learnt. Those who just want to find blame will do so anyway, for the rest of us we can be more aware from the knowledge and hope to prevent similar tragedies.
Imo there is too much covering up and non-disclosing of info that has public consequences. For that to change in general there need to be precedents and mechanisms. No institution should be above the right to public truth, knowledge and insight.
This is part of a battle for freedom of information so that Govts, Quangos, Committees, Enquiries and in some cases private companies operating in the public domain, start giving up on treating the general populace like fucking idiots and pulling the wool over their eyes.

King Kev wrote:A prime example was on the platform of Lokeren station after the game there. We got there early and by the time the train was due there were far too many people behind us on the platform. Thankfully a few City fans took it upon themselves to direct fans behind us to other parts of the platform whilst myself and a few others linked arms at the front and managed to hold the crowd back whilst the train pulled in. We should never have been put in that position but we sorted it out between us.

For the record, had this ended differently and fans had been pushed into the path of the on-coming train I would have had no qualms whatsoever in saying that City fans were partly to blame.

brite blu sky wrote:Those who just want to find blame will do so anyway

I think we have all seen that this is very true.

brite blu sky wrote:... for the rest of us we can be more aware from the knowledge and hope to prevent similar tragedies.

True. Hence the Taylor Report and the measures that have been taken because of it.

King Kev wrote:

King Kev wrote:A prime example was on the platform of Lokeren station after the game there. We got there early and by the time the train was due there were far too many people behind us on the platform. Thankfully a few City fans took it upon themselves to direct fans behind us to other parts of the platform whilst myself and a few others linked arms at the front and managed to hold the crowd back whilst the train pulled in. We should never have been put in that position but we sorted it out between us.

For the record, had this ended differently and fans had been pushed into the path of the on-coming train I would have had no qualms whatsoever in saying that City fans were partly to blame.

I was inside the hall of the train station as this happened on the platform. The police locked the doors to the platform whilst people inside the hall were getting crushed and I was genuinely frightened for my safety. We had no idea what was happening on the platform, but suddenly the pressure became too much and the double doors to the platform broke open under the pressure of people pushing from the back, we legged it through the doors to escape the crush, and I admit there were blues on the floor who just got trampled on but I couldnt avoid it as the whole crowd was an immovable force by this time and I went through the door without my feet hardly touching the ground

Fortunately on that occasion as far as I recall either the train had just arrived at the platform or one had just left so it was empty so there were no implications on the platform, but it just goes to show that had that door not held in the main hall just long enough, some people would have been seriously injured on the platform, and if the door had held any longer, people would have been crushed in the hall which is pretty much the dilemma faced by the police at Hillsborough albeit on a larger scale. Whatever the police had done, there is a good chance people could have lost their life that day in Lokeren and it was only by the grace of god that it didn't

So had a disaster occurred on the platform, would it have been my fault for trying to push onto the platform to escape the crush behind me, or would it have been the fault of those at the very rear of the station who did not need to be pushing, as the could clearly see that the place was totally rammed - although would have been unaware of the crush at the front, or the congestion on the platform?

Whose fault would that have been?

Liverpool have amongst their support, the worst scum I've ever encountered in all the years I've been watching football & imo their typically scummy behaviour contributed to the disaster.

There are also plenty of decent fans amongst them & many of them will be amongst the dead. It is the job of the authorities to protect decent people from scum, whether they wear the same colours or not. In those days, the policy of the police, government & that cunt Thatcher was to treat all football fans as scum & treat us like animals. The only surprise about Hillsboro was that it took so long to happen. I've been in crowds where, because of the attitude of the police, something similar could easily have happened.

All fans should support this.