Premier league reality

[john68]

For too many years I have defended City against the rags and other fans, against out of context media reportage that has twisted and stories and lies manufactured to attack our club. Now I find that I am having to defend City from City fans themselves. I come on here and thread after thread is like reading through a huge never ending suicide note of bleating, whingeing and disgruntled fans.

City spends millions = the best squad = City MUST win the League = coming 2nd is NOT good enough = FAILURE. Sorry folks, that equation never stacked up in the past, doesn't now and no matter what the likes of Merson, Custis, Lawrenson, Green, Hanson, or anyone else tells you, it doesn't stack upnow and it never will in the future. GET REAL.

I don't doubt the genuine and gut wrenching disappointments of the last few weeks are real and painful, I feel them too but it is senseless and the only thing it damages is CITY. The rags and the media must be sat round laughing their heads off at the results of their work. They have helped build unreal expectation "City must win the League this season"..."City are favourites"..."City can only throw it away"..."If City lose it now, they will have failed"..."Mancini has lost control of the dressing room"..."There is no plan B"..."Mancini has lost it under pressure"..."City have capitulated"...and now are having a field day at yours and City's expense. Non of it is true.

Does anyone truly think that it's reasonable to build a Premier League wining side in a couple of years...Obviously, there are some idiots who do. Never been done before, by any club, any manager, at any time. We are the nearest anyone has ever got to doing it and we are so near it. We may be dropping behind in the race but with 7 games to go we are still hanging on with a chance. If we should do it,and we can, IT WOULD BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RISE IN ANY TEAM....EVER.

check out some facts...then wobble yer heads.

[Im_Spartacus]

For too many years I have defended City against the rags and other fans, against out of context media reportage that has twisted and stories and lies manufactured to attack our club. Now I find that I am having to defend City from City fans themselves. I come on here and thread after thread is like reading through a huge never ending suicide note of bleating, whingeing and disgruntled fans.

City spends millions = the best squad = City MUST win the League = coming 2nd is NOT good enough = FAILURE. Sorry folks, that equation never stacked up in the past, doesn't now and no matter what the likes of Merson, Custis, Lawrenson, Green, Hanson, or anyone else tells you, it doesn't stack upnow and it never will in the future. GET REAL.

I don't doubt the genuine and gut wrenching disappointments of the last few weeks are real and painful, I feel them too but it is senseless and the only thing it damages is CITY. The rags and the media must be sat round laughing their heads off at the results of their work. They have helped build unreal expectation "City must win the League this season"..."City are favourites"..."City can only throw it away"..."If City lose it now, they will have failed"..."Mancini has lost control of the dressing room"..."There is no plan B"..."Mancini has lost it under pressure"..."City have capitulated"...and now are having a field day at yours and City's expense. Non of it is true.

Does anyone truly think that it's reasonable to build a Premier League wining side in a couple of years...Obviously, there are some idiots who do. Never been done before, by any club, any manager, at any time. We are the nearest anyone has ever got to doing it and we are so near it. We may be dropping behind in the race but with 7 games to go we are still hanging on with a chance. If we should do it,and we can, IT WOULD BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RISE IN ANY TEAM....EVER.

check out some facts...then wobble yer heads.

1. Next season will be the 4th season of the project. Its not happened overnight as you suggest

2. The rag media had nothing to do with putting us at the top of the league, nor is it their fault we are no longer there. The responsibility falls to the players on the pitch, and the buck stops with the manager.

3. Every headline that you quote, maybe aside from mancini loosing the dressing room, is true at the point it was said.

4. Why do you choose to completely ignore the shambles on the pitch amongst all this. It has fuck all to do with the media, it has everything to do with results, a commodity the club has found in extremely short supply on the road because of a simple factor, a managers inability to crack a tactical problem. Yes there has been bad luck, yes there have been dodgy decisons, but that shit happens, and will continue to happen. If you keep scoring goals, there is very little any referee can do to fuck you over.

5. Well done for not mentioning the past. As it has zero bearing on today

[Chinners]

a'fucling'men John ...

[CityGer]

Decent post John, much of which I agree with.

The one point I would take issue with is that you seem to think that people's expectations have been shaped by the media and by the rags. Whilst the points you raise about them setting unreal expectations are valid, my expecations were built by our early season form, the squad of players at our disposal and the quality of the opposition.

I didn't expect to win the league back in August. Back then I would have taken second. However, we have thrown the league away. People view it as a missed opportunity and it is. I couldn't give a toss what the media tell me - I can see for myself that we have thrown it away.

People are disappointed, gutted, understandably so.

That said, your points about patience and the bigger picture are valid. I think most people see that and have the patience. You're one of the few people on this board to remember us winning the title so I don't think people have an issue with waiting a few years more and I've already stated that Bobby should be given time. However, you can't stifle people from showing their frustrations and disappointment and in the case of those who have given up hope of the title, their sense of realism.

[john68]

The Premier League is the most competitive League in the World, on any day, any team can beat any other team and this happens more here than in any other comparative major League. The title is not a gift, it has to be won week by week and game by game. Mistakes are made and have been made since its inception, even by the most successful teams. Mancini has made tons of mistakes this season, but why are we surprised? Every other manager, Taggart included has done similar and the record shows that, no matter how many mistakes, nor how big they have been, there is only one manager who has made less and that's debatable considering the points he's picked up from refereeing decisions.

In its 20 year history, only FOUR teams have been champions, the rags, Blackburn, Arsenal and Chelsea and only on seven occasions has it been taken away from the swamp. The rest of English football has tried and largely failed over time to overhaul the rags. We are so near to it (and it's not over yet) and we have got to that stage in a fraction of the time it took the others.

It's ok to analyse and get forensic about every action taken by Mancini but FFS, do the same with the others too. Chairmen, managers and clubs who have been at it a lot longer than us have fallen by the wayside this season. Mancini and City are still just about in there. Give us some credit.

[Im_Spartacus]

The Premier League is the most competitive League in the World, on any day, any team can beat any other team and this happens more here than in any other comparative major League. The title is not a gift, it has to be won week by week and game by game. Mistakes are made and have been made since its inception, even by the most successful teams. Mancini has made tons of mistakes this season, but why are we surprised? Every other manager, Taggart included has done similar and the record shows that, no matter how many mistakes, nor how big they have been, there is only one manager who has made less and that's debatable considering the points he's picked up from refereeing decisions.

In its 20 year history, only FOUR teams have been champions, the rags, Blackburn, Arsenal and Chelsea and only on seven occasions has it been taken away from the swamp. The rest of English football has tried and largely failed over time to overhaul the rags. We are so near to it (and it's not over yet) and we have got to that stage in a fraction of the time it took the others.

It's ok to analyse and get forensic about every action taken by Mancini but FFS, do the same with the others too. Chairmen, managers and clubs who have been at it a lot longer than us have fallen by the wayside this season. Mancini and City are still just about in there. Give us some credit.

Mate i see around us that chelsea and arsenal fans are going fucking purple with some of the shit their managers have pulled this year. Difference being that we dont have a novice in charge like chelsea did, and we dont have someone in charge who insists he is going to do it on a shoestring, being totally reliant on one player.

Someone posted yesterday that a 2nd class manager wont win with a 1st class team. But a 1st class manager will still win with a 2nd class team. So so true, and there are only really two people out there that you can apply that to.

[Rag_hater]

The Premier League is the most competitive League in the World, on any day, any team can beat any other team and this happens more here than in any other comparative major League. The title is not a gift, it has to be won week by week and game by game. Mistakes are made and have been made since its inception, even by the most successful teams. Mancini has made tons of mistakes this season, but why are we surprised? Every other manager, Taggart included has done similar and the record shows that, no matter how many mistakes, nor how big they have been, there is only one manager who has made less and that's debatable considering the points he's picked up from refereeing decisions.

In its 20 year history, only FOUR teams have been champions, the rags, Blackburn, Arsenal and Chelsea and only on seven occasions has it been taken away from the swamp. The rest of English football has tried and largely failed over time to overhaul the rags. We are so near to it (and it's not over yet) and we have got to that stage in a fraction of the time it took the others.

It's ok to analyse and get forensic about every action taken by Mancini but FFS, do the same with the others too. Chairmen, managers and clubs who have been at it a lot longer than us have fallen by the wayside this season. Mancini and City are still just about in there. Give us some credit.

Your always preaching patience.We have been patient for years now is our time and to watch some fucker balls it up through not knowing what is required is a bit sickening.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

Spartacus, do you really think we are a shambles on the pitch? Bit of an over reaction surely?

[Im_Spartacus]

Spartacus, do you really think we are a shambles on the pitch? Bit of an over reaction surely?

No, i dont think its an overreaction.

We are at the business end of the season, and off the top of my head have found ourselves behind in 6 of the last 6 games we have played, largely to counter attacks, which i just cant fathom, as we werent creating anything at the other end at the time we were countered.

We have ended up kitchen sinking it for the last 10 minutes of each game, and won two of them - one of which was pointless because of how far behind we had fallen in the tie. So i make that one success in 6 games.

You think two wins out of 6 is a good return?

[Florida Blue]

The Premier League is the most competitive League in the World, on any day, any team can beat any other team and this happens more here than in any other comparative major League. The title is not a gift, it has to be won week by week and game by game. Mistakes are made and have been made since its inception, even by the most successful teams. Mancini has made tons of mistakes this season, but why are we surprised? Every other manager, Taggart included has done similar and the record shows that, no matter how many mistakes, nor how big they have been, there is only one manager who has made less and that's debatable considering the points he's picked up from refereeing decisions.

In its 20 year history, only FOUR teams have been champions, the rags, Blackburn, Arsenal and Chelsea and only on seven occasions has it been taken away from the swamp. The rest of English football has tried and largely failed over time to overhaul the rags. We are so near to it (and it's not over yet) and we have got to that stage in a fraction of the time it took the others.

It's ok to analyse and get forensic about every action taken by Mancini but FFS, do the same with the others too. Chairmen, managers and clubs who have been at it a lot longer than us have fallen by the wayside this season. Mancini and City are still just about in there. Give us some credit.

Your always preaching patience.We have been patient for years now is our time and to watch some fucker balls it up through not knowing what is required is a bit sickening.

Do you have the magic bullet to solve it all? Are you saying some mercenary would solve it all? Look I am so indifferent on Mancini it is boring, I can take him or leave him, but I firmly believe in the devil you know versus the one you don't. Anyway, less I digress. What is it exactly he has done wrong? I don't want a "he doesn't have a clue" comment, I want specifics, and then I would love to hear you tell us for sure how you or someone who "gets it" would make it work.

Look I think some of his tactical moves are terrible, I think the biggest difference between us and the rags is the manager, but I really do not think you or most anyone else who I would call loyal (i.e. Gus and Jose would not make me happy as mercenaries) could really be doing a much better job.

Onto John68's point and yours about patience, we have had a top team in place for two seasons. Top talent wise, but unfortunately not top chemistry. While all very very good players with their own skill sets, every striker we have not named Aguero is not fitting in. Tevez is a mess, Dzeko is not a good fit for a team without a true winger to utilize his best skills, and Mario (while I love him) is out of control 99% of the time. The chemistry is still not there, and we need to find a way to solve it. We solve that, and then maybe there is that magic bullet.

That said, I expect us within the next 2 seasons to start a run to rival the one scum has had.

[john68]

1. Next season will be the 4th season of the project. Its not happened overnight as you suggest.

We are currently into only the 2nd full season of Mancini's tenure and with 7 games remaining, the 2nd season is still incomplete. Although some players from the Hughes period are still here, tactically and strategically the 1st team project started again. Mancini has had only 2 close seasons to enact his part of the plan.

2. The rag media had nothing to do with putting us at the top of the league, nor is it their fault we are no longer there. The responsibility falls to the players on the pitch, and the buck stops with the manager.

Nor did I suggest it did Mate. I think I was quite explicit regarding the role the media had played. You are happy to discredit the players and blame Mancini for no longer being top of the League but you fail to credit them for getting us there in the 1st place.

3. Every headline that you quote, maybe aside from mancini loosing the dressing room, is true at the point it was said.

City being favourites was only a media manufactured issue. The League is a long running competition and even Taggart was right when he said it is never won by Xmas. If you check the stats of the Premier league run ins over the last 8 games or so, you will note that he was right.
City have thrown nothing away, our early season form was the result of our tactics versus opposition tactics, Theirs changed and as the next part of our evolution, we have to learn to surpass that challenge. That we haven't done so yet, is disappointing but not surprising.
We have failed, only in our inability to surpass the new challenges thrown up by other teams as the season developed. Mancini is not God, nor are the players. Mistakes have been made, many of them. All managers make them, Taggart included. Is it reasonable to think we would get everything right at the 2nd time of asking? No other team or manager ever did that.
There has been quite a number of plans. We are probably quite a way down the alphabet by now, not stuck on "B". When Mancini took over he focussed on defence, then he moved to expanding the role of Yaya moving forward, The full backs pushing on, upfield and wide was another strategy, this season opened with a whole new set of strategies using Aguero's strengths rather than Tevez's...Barry as an anchor rather than De Jong. City have developed and evolved dramatically during Mancini's tenure. Many plans.


4. Why do you choose to completely ignore the shambles on the pitch amongst all this. It has fuck all to do with the media, it has everything to do with results, a commodity the club has found in extremely short supply on the road because of a simple factor, a managers inability to crack a tactical problem. Yes there has been bad luck, yes there have been dodgy decisons, but that shit happens, and will continue to happen. If you keep scoring goals, there is very little any referee can do to fuck you over.

I am quite happy to deal with what is happening on the pitch and I never inferred the media had any part in that. I also agree that our results and our form are not as good as I would like them to be. I do understand that as this season has gone on, other managers have looked at how we play, studied our strategies and taken actions to negate them. It's what happens. Managers and coaches will talk and discuss us and ways will be found to stop us...It was always inevitable that our free flowing game would be opposed. Other managers and coaches aren't idiots and they will be forensic in their studies. It is happening to us, just as it has happened to every other club. That is why, it takes teams so long to attain greatness and then sustain it over a longer period. It's usual and it's what football is about.


5. Well done for not mentioning the past. As it has zero bearing on today[/quote]

Thank you for your compliment. For your information, I actually do the full range, past, present and future. But please don't discount the past, we can learn much from it. Its lessons can be a good tool to help us deal with the present. The past often shows us our mistakes and can assist our progress. Regarding the future, I think it's true to suggest that I am one of the few who have been keen to discuss the direction that football is moving and where it might be in the next few years. Maybe you missed that. There didn't seem to be too much interest in any vision of the future by many who would consider themselves progressive and myself a dinosaur.

[ruralblue]

I mentioned on the b'burn / rags thread last night, when folk were throwing in the towel that it isn't over yet and it is still achievable though I think one or two think I must need my head checking. Utd can have a wobble just as we are doing, they can draw one, lose one and the points gao could close again. 7 games a possible 21 points it is do-able. Once it really goes out of reach mathematically then I will accept our chance 'THIS' season is over, until then anything can happen. Am I going to get depressed or suicidal over it if we fall and come second?, no am I fuck. Yup it will hurt a bit, I may be fucked off a little but that's life. :-)

[Nigels Tackle]

I mentioned on the b'burn / rags thread last night, when folk were throwing in the towel that it isn't over yet and it is still achievable though I think one or two think I must need my head checking. Utd can have a wobble just as we are doing, they can draw one, lose one and the points gao could close again. 7 games a possible 21 points it is do-able. Once it really goes out of reach mathematically then I will accept our chance 'THIS' season is over, until then anything can happen. Am I going to get depressed or suicidal over it if we fall and come second?, no am I fuck. Yup it will hurt a bit, I may be fucked off a little but that's life. :-)

amen

[john68]

CityGer,

I agree that City's early form changed the expectations and hopes of city fans. "We score when we want" was awesome and we blew teams away and I fully understand the disappointment being felt at present that it couldn't be sustained.

I am not unlike Carl, Piccs and probably most on here in my emotional response to results and I fully understand why Carl gets angry, I usually emotionally agree. I get the gut churning when things go wrong and have been known to jump out my cab on the rank when we score or get a good result.

I have repeated and repeated...to the point of boring myself as well as others, that it take time to build a great team. It always has and what we are seeing now is part of that evolution. The players we cheer or moan at now are not the same player we had a couple of seasons ago. Things evolve,and the team we see ow will not be the team we will be watching in a couple of years. Nor will the tactics.

We are nowhere near the finished article yet, there is a long way to go, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of challenges to be overcome. It does surprise me that we have made so much headway in a couple of years, so much so that we are so close to grabbing Taggart by the scruff of the neck and hauling him down off his pedestal.

[ruralblue]

I mentioned on the b'burn / rags thread last night, when folk were throwing in the towel that it isn't over yet and it is still achievable though I think one or two think I must need my head checking. Utd can have a wobble just as we are doing, they can draw one, lose one and the points gao could close again. 7 games a possible 21 points it is do-able. Once it really goes out of reach mathematically then I will accept our chance 'THIS' season is over, until then anything can happen. Am I going to get depressed or suicidal over it if we fall and come second?, no am I fuck. Yup it will hurt a bit, I may be fucked off a little but that's life. :-)

amen

fuck off ;-) peace be with ya man!

[john68]

As I said Spartacus, mistakes are made by all chairmen, managers and coaches. Whether it be the Arsenal board or Wenger who governs their reluctance to spend, someone at the Emirates has made a mistake. If Wenger is ultimately proved right with his youth development policy (and who knows?), it will have taken him the best part of this season to show any improvement or sustainability and probably plenty of next season too. Arsenal fans are having to be patient like us and patience is and always has been in short supply.

Not sure who gets the blame at Chelsea but I would target Abramovitch's knee jerking and over emotional reponses to mistakes made down there.
The 1st/2nd class comment is very valid Mate but I would also add Wenger to your list that I assume contain Taggart and Mourinho. Maybe we can learn our best lesson from Taggart and Wenger. It took them both years to even challenge before eventually succeeding. Both took over big clubs that already had a sound base. Mourinho took over Chelsea after many millions were poured in and didn't have the total rebuild that Taggart, Wenger and now Mancini has taken on.

[john68]

Rag Hater,

I agree that we have been patient for years mate but consider that most of those years were being patient without hope or resources. Like Fulham or West Brom today, we would never have been able to compete with the big boys and even if we had the odd years, we hadn't the resources to sustain it.

The common factor running through the like of the rags, Arsenal and Chelsea is that it took them all a number of years development and a number of years investment before they became successful. This is not about Mourinho biding his time with us for a couple of years glory until he moves on. It is about long term success.

Don't believe that I am that most patient of men, I don't want to win the league this season,I wanted it last season and the season before. If we finish 2nd this, I will celebrate our progress but still be disappointed that we didn't drag Taggart off his perch.

[bigblue]

spartacus, you're quite the downer. And take off that barca top

[Im_Spartacus]

spartacus, you're quite the downer. And take off that barca top

So you think that going behind in the last 6 games in the manner we have is acceptable? You feel that a team at this stage of the season would, at least once, have been able to impose themselves in the opposition, who were, let me remind you:

Swansea
Stoke
Chelsea
Sunderland
Sporting x2 (6th in portuguese league)

Im sorry but there are far too many in here in complete denial about what you are seeing on the pitch. We have gone from top scorers, to scoring 2 goals from open play away from home in 5 months, and from havin the best defence to leaking like a seive.

Thats all good is it?

[ruralblue]

spartacus, you're quite the downer. And take off that barca top

So you think that going behind in the last 6 games in the manner we have is acceptable? You feel that a team at this stage of the season would, at least once, have been able to impose themselves in the opposition, who were, let me remind you:

Swansea
Stoke
Chelsea
Sunderland
Sporting x2 (6th in portuguese league)

Im sorry but there are far too many in here in complete denial about what you are seeing on the pitch. We have gone from top scorers, to scoring 2 goals from open play away from home in 5 months, and from havin the best defence to leaking like a seive.

Thats all good is it?

Sporting x 1, not two! Also Sunderland got fucking lucky! It's not complete denial John, it's trying to have a little faith and belief!