The mancityfans.net football forum

Every time I watch us at the moment it reminds me of when a team has a powerplay in Ice Hockey. That is when the oppo has a man down. The accepted method is to get yourself in the attacking third and set yourselves up moving the puck around, and probing for an opening. Like wise the defensive team set themselves in 'box' formation, and a game of cat and mouse ensues for a couple of minutes with the short handed team hoping to counter attack if possible, but usually content to merely clear their lines.
This is what seems to happen with us. Rather than sweep upfield in a flowing movement we give it to Yaya who will arse about with it until we're set but also so is the defence.
Is Bob a closet Maple Leafs fan?

The other thing that springs to mind is when we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Barton scoring a penalty and the rest of the game taking place on the edge of our box with the Arse never really looking like breaking us down.

Do we train like this or does it look different at Carrington? It has gone on a right long time now.

it's just too slow. We attack with no real purpose and when we do attack we rarely do in numbers.

funny u mention arsenal there . as city remind me of them a few years ago. they were playing great football but would never shoot . over passing even when there was a clear opening .

Bridge'srightfoot wrote:it's just too slow. We attack with no real purpose and when we do attack we rarely do in numbers.

Yes. With this style of play, even Falcao wouldnt be much of use for us.
We are too predictable, slooooooow. No sense of urgency whatsoever.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Every time I watch us at the moment it reminds me of when a team has a powerplay in Ice Hockey. That is when the oppo has a man down. The accepted method is to get yourself in the attacking third and set yourselves up moving the puck around, and probing for an opening. Like wise the defensive team set themselves in 'box' formation, and a game of cat and mouse ensues for a couple of minutes with the short handed team hoping to counter attack if possible, but usually content to merely clear their lines.
This is what seems to happen with us. Rather than sweep upfield in a flowing movement we give it to Yaya who will arse about with it until we're set but also so is the defence.
Is Bob a closet Maple Leafs fan?

The other thing that springs to mind is when we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Barton scoring a penalty and the rest of the game taking place on the edge of our box with the Arse never really looking like breaking us down.

Do we train like this or does it look different at Carrington? It has gone on a right long time now.

Mr Higgingbottom never talks about us passing the fucking ball around outside the box for eons with no resulting money shot. In fact, he talks a lot about goals, goals, and great saves, etc....

I've had a day to reflect on this, and Mancini's reaction to this makes me feel like some folks aren't executing what he perceives his tactic and strategy to be -- Aguero, Milner maybe i dunno. The fault he's got in my opinion is, Balo aside, he doesn't seem to be punitive in his actions with others enough if they aren't following his instructions, and he seems to have no plan B, yet again. Still.

Regardless, i think your Power Play analogy is a good one Piccs. We are more likely the side that gets scored on with a lightning counter from the team that has a man in the Penalty Box than the side that preys upon the advantage, aren't we?

I feel like we also like direct speed in our attack to be able to menace teams with quick sweeping moves ... Aguero is quick yes, but he is not among the fastest players in the league, top speed wise, I don't think he is that fast ... but he'll lose anyone in the first 5 steps.

Dave and Nasri are just not fast at all, although silva can move the ball quickly, he needs a sufficiently fast player to take advantage of it. If we play with silva and milner on the wings, we are pretty much signaling to the other team that we will be attacking slowly ... and that they don't have to be scared of crosses coming in. Tevez and aguero are both midgets so that takes care of that. Deny us space in the middle and you'll frustrate us for a majority of the game ... it's pretty simple.

We didnt bring on Dzeko until late, and even then it's not like we cross it to him. Playing dzeko in a slow build up attack is not a good idea, in my opinion.

I hope we start giving sinclair a chance, not necessarily because of his crossing or finishing skill ... which are moderate imo, but because he is faster than nasri and milner and tevez and barry and garcia and yaya (until yaya gets up to speed). Get him to run the line, give us width and we'll suddenly have a new option AND more space to play in when we want to fuck around outside their box.

I don't think sinclair is the best player to do this ... but is really the only player we have that can do it now.

DoomMerchant wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Every time I watch us at the moment it reminds me of when a team has a powerplay in Ice Hockey. That is when the oppo has a man down. The accepted method is to get yourself in the attacking third and set yourselves up moving the puck around, and probing for an opening. Like wise the defensive team set themselves in 'box' formation, and a game of cat and mouse ensues for a couple of minutes with the short handed team hoping to counter attack if possible, but usually content to merely clear their lines.
This is what seems to happen with us. Rather than sweep upfield in a flowing movement we give it to Yaya who will arse about with it until we're set but also so is the defence.
Is Bob a closet Maple Leafs fan?

The other thing that springs to mind is when we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Barton scoring a penalty and the rest of the game taking place on the edge of our box with the Arse never really looking like breaking us down.

Do we train like this or does it look different at Carrington? It has gone on a right long time now.

Mr Higgingbottom never talks about us passing the fucking ball around outside the box for eons with no resulting money shot. In fact, he talks a lot about goals, goals, and great saves, etc....

I've had a day to reflect on this, and Mancini's reaction to this makes me feel like some folks aren't executing what he perceives his tactic and strategy to be -- Aguero, Milner maybe i dunno. The fault he's got in my opinion is, Balo aside, he doesn't seem to be punitive in his actions with others enough if they aren't following his instructions, and he seems to have no plan B, yet again. Still.

Regardless, i think your Power Play analogy is a good one Piccs. We are more likely the side that gets scored on with a lightning counter from the team that has a man in the Penalty Box than the side that preys upon the advantage, aren't we?

i think the players are trying too hard to follow bobby's instructions and that this is stifling them. the one man who doesn't seem to follow instructions to the letter is balo - hence the punishments.

i recently commented that i think that they are over coached... i mean what the fuck is that flip chart they show to the subs before they go on all about? honestly, please someone tell me the value of it?

bobby needs to stop being so fucking stubborn and needs to let the players have some freedom/take some responsibility on the park - we have some of the finest players in the world pulling on the blue shirt week in week out, i wish that they were being allowed to show us what they can do...

Nigels Tackle wrote:

DoomMerchant wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Every time I watch us at the moment it reminds me of when a team has a powerplay in Ice Hockey. That is when the oppo has a man down. The accepted method is to get yourself in the attacking third and set yourselves up moving the puck around, and probing for an opening. Like wise the defensive team set themselves in 'box' formation, and a game of cat and mouse ensues for a couple of minutes with the short handed team hoping to counter attack if possible, but usually content to merely clear their lines.
This is what seems to happen with us. Rather than sweep upfield in a flowing movement we give it to Yaya who will arse about with it until we're set but also so is the defence.
Is Bob a closet Maple Leafs fan?

The other thing that springs to mind is when we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Barton scoring a penalty and the rest of the game taking place on the edge of our box with the Arse never really looking like breaking us down.

Do we train like this or does it look different at Carrington? It has gone on a right long time now.

Mr Higgingbottom never talks about us passing the fucking ball around outside the box for eons with no resulting money shot. In fact, he talks a lot about goals, goals, and great saves, etc....

I've had a day to reflect on this, and Mancini's reaction to this makes me feel like some folks aren't executing what he perceives his tactic and strategy to be -- Aguero, Milner maybe i dunno. The fault he's got in my opinion is, Balo aside, he doesn't seem to be punitive in his actions with others enough if they aren't following his instructions, and he seems to have no plan B, yet again. Still.

Regardless, i think your Power Play analogy is a good one Piccs. We are more likely the side that gets scored on with a lightning counter from the team that has a man in the Penalty Box than the side that preys upon the advantage, aren't we?

i think the players are trying too hard to follow bobby's instructions and that this is stifling them. the one man who doesn't seem to follow instructions to the letter is balo - hence the punishments.

i recently commented that i think that they are over coached... i mean what the fuck is that flip chart they show to the subs before they go on all about? honestly, please someone tell me the value of it?

bobby needs to stop being so fucking stubborn and needs to let the players have some freedom/take some responsibility on the park - we have some of the finest players in the world pulling on the blue shirt week in week out, i wish that they were being allowed to show us what they can do...

Think you've nailed it. He's over complicating it.
Agree about the flip chart. You don't need to show someone like Tevez a fucking chart, saying 'score' would be adequate. He knows what to do.

All he needs to do with said flip chart is draw a semi circle say 15 yards from the edge of the box and write a big bloody SHOOT WHEN HERE in the middle. It is over complicated, we're trying to walk it in, we are the new arse

anthonytomo wrote:All he needs to do with said flip chart is draw a semi circle say 15 yards from the edge of the box and write a big bloody SHOOT WHEN HERE in the middle. It is over complicated, we're trying to walk it in, we are the new arse

It's just so slow though that when they get the ball they can't shoot. Mostly Aguerro or Tevez have to try and work a shooting opportunity and more often than not they're crowded out.

The arguments about over complicating things and not having enough shots on target are bollocks I'm afraid. This is not just my opinion, it is fact.

This chart was published by [urlnp=http://www.eplindex.com/23433/shots-on-target-goals-using-data-analysis-betting.html]eplIndex[/urlnp] on 17 December, as you will see, City have the third best record for Total Shots, and no other team has had as many Shots On Target as us.



It would seem that it is the quality of shots that is our problem, rather than the number of shots.

Out-shot by Everton? FFS, things must be grim .....

King Kev wrote:The arguments about over complicating things and not having enough shots on target are bollocks I'm afraid. This is not just my opinion, it is fact.

This chart was published by [urlnp=http://www.eplindex.com/23433/shots-on-target-goals-using-data-analysis-betting.html]eplIndex[/urlnp] on 17 December, as you will see, City have the second best record for Total Shots, and no other team has had as many Shots On Target as us.



It would seem that it is the quality of shots that is our problem, rather than the number of shots.

Numbers don't lie KK and it's true we do shoot a lot but mostly from inside the penalty area as we did against Sunderland and all were blocked by the goalie.
I think what we lack this season is shooting from outside which can take the goalie by surprise and not give him enough time to react.

Dubaimancityfan wrote:

King Kev wrote:The arguments about over complicating things and not having enough shots on target are bollocks I'm afraid. This is not just my opinion, it is fact.

This chart was published by [urlnp=http://www.eplindex.com/23433/shots-on-target-goals-using-data-analysis-betting.html]eplIndex[/urlnp] on 17 December, as you will see, City have the second best record for Total Shots, and no other team has had as many Shots On Target as us.



It would seem that it is the quality of shots that is our problem, rather than the number of shots.

Numbers don't lie KK and it's true we do shoot a lot but mostly from inside the penalty area as we did against Sunderland and all were blocked by the goalie.
I think what we lack this season is shooting from outside which can take the goalie by surprise and not give him enough time to react.

Does it say how many of those shots are actual genuine shots rather than misplaced passes which trickle through to the keeper, how many of them are in games where we are already in the lead, compared to games where the opposition are parked in their own box ?

Answer: no. Therefore it is a meaningless chart, we all know City are riotous in attack when they get a team by the balls. That's not the problem.

If Norwich defend like they did last year we will have 30 shots & score 6 again & everybody will think we have turned the corner. If they defend like Sunderland or Reading, unless we score early, we will have 2. That's the problem.

I brought this up last year and likened it to basketball where once possession is lost or a basket is scored the opposition would sprint back to get in a defensive position. The same analogy is applied here.

However, what I noticed from the Sunderland game was that in the first half we actually broke with speed and had a couple of chances. This was when they were pressing us high and trying to force the the ball back. This has become a strategy that a few clubs are using against us, especially at the start of the season. We looked good in that half and it was only in the second half that Sunderland dropped and defended like their lives depended on it.

I'm not sure if anybody has congratulated Sunderland for a well won dogged game but I think they deserved some recognition. Having won 2 of their previous 3 games they seem to have got their shit together, just at the wrong time for us. The stats show that we had 23 shots to their 12 with only 7 on target (4 for them). 8 of them were blocked and we only had 7 where the keeper had to take action. We also had 67% and threw 29 crosses into their box which showed that their defensive set-up was spot on and they worked their balls off for the win.

The problem, as been stated, is the park the bus attitude of other teams who will gleefully take a draw or try to get something on the break. How do we counter that though, how do a team full of top drawer players get through the double decker or, in this case, the power play?

Doug mentioned that in training he sees them breaking quickly with fast passing but when we see it in the game it looks slow and laborious. But why is that, they are doing it in training but not out on the pitch? For me the answer is Yaya Toure. This is no slight on him but when we've broke with purpose it is usually with the likes of Silva, Tevez, Aguero et al and they get the ball up the pitch as fast as possible, similar to what we witnessed at the Swamp (even Dzeko's been involved). Yaya is part of that system and he can get the ball away when required, usually with pin-point accuracy but it is very rare he is part of the counter attack system.

Instead, if a non-attacking player picks the ball up they always seem to look for Yaya and get the ball to him. Garcia is a prime example at the moment, as was Rodwell when he was playing. This allows the opposition team to get back in their defensive positions and makes it very difficult to then break them down with the usual banks of 5 and 4. Yaya is a fantastic player but I believe we need to mix it up a little more and allow players to run the ball from all angles rather than 'Give it to bloody Yaya'.

The other thing is what has been posted by KK, above. I put those stats up a couple of weeks ago because I honestly believe we are getting the chances but we are just not converting them into goals. I'm watching time and time again as our front players fail to place it past the keeper or just try to blast it a goal, even though it looks a lot easier to lift your head and basically pass it passed them.

Things aren't going to change soon though I'm afraid. The park the bus attitude and our current lack of width can't be sorted easily. Without the influx of quality players we expected in the summer and injuries to 4 of our 5 recognised full-backs we will have to carry on regardless hoping that our forward players start to hit form. We're getting the chances, now is time to put them away.

Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Beefymcfc wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Does he tell them to shoot or put the ball in first time ? I suppose neither matter if there are no defenders.

Beefymcfc wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Playing against no one sounds like the most retarded way to "practice" that i can imagine. Is this to avoid injuries?

I can't imagine how sports like Hockey, Gridiron football, or basketball would be if you basically just ran dry plays without any real-life semblance of what teams are going to try and do.

Seems really amateurish if that's how the entire footy world operates. No fucking wonder we can't break down a team parking the bus...we hardly ever see it. Once a week maybe.

cheers

Ted Hughes wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Does he tell them to shoot or put the ball in first time ? I suppose neither matter if there are no defenders.

exactly...couldn't ever matter. He might as well be watching from a helicopter with binoculars.