The mancityfans.net football forum

quite incredible that the spanish judge in this case has ordered for the destruction of all evidence

hopefully the international outcry will result in a reversal of this ludicrous decision

advt - what's the reaction in the spanish press?

info for those who know nothing about this

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case

Nigels Tackle wrote:quite incredible that the spanish judge in this case has ordered for the destruction of all evidence

hopefully the international outcry will result in a reversal of this ludicrous decision

advt - what's the reaction in the spanish press?

info for those who know nothing about this

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case

To be honest, Spain is scandal central so it's difficult to follow any one case too closely. The two biggest stories here for the last few weeks have been 1) the allegations of corruption against top-tier members of the governing party, and 2) the trial of the king's son-in-law for - you've guessed it - corruption.

The one thing that's caught my eye in the Fuentes case is that Real Madrid are constantly being put on the back foot over payments they've made to him in the past. That club is rotten to the core.

Thanks for opening this NT, I was looking for the original thread buy couldn't find it.

The Spanish drugs agency are to appeal against the destruction of the blood bags and WADA are considering whether to join with them, though I wouldn't hold your breath. Doping wasn't an offence in Spain at the time of the original operation and that is the get out clause.

Fuentes has already been silenced by the court from publicly identifying any of the 35 athletes on the list, though he did state that he knew the identity of every persons and their code names. He aslo stated that the list contained cyclists, boxers and FOOTBALLERS.

French newspaper Le Monde were stopped by court action from publishing documents that related to the pre-season fitness programmes of both Real and Barca.

Kin 'ell, don't be surprised if, in a year or two, you're reading about Fuentes having a tragic 'accident' somewhere.

Barcelona's fortunes have had a bit of a downturn of late.

Tokyo Blue wrote:Barcelona's fortunes have had a bit of a downturn of late.

wait until the German Drug Baron is 'outed' :-) !

Just finished Tyler Hamilton's book and you have to question whether anyone in cycling was riding clean and still is! Although what is thoroughly deploring is the stated fact that there are tennis players and footballers who Dr Fuentes was involved with and the fact that he was willing to expose the names in a court, I still find it incredible that no-one has so far managed to get those names out in the public domain, but there must be plenty of 'clients' worringly scouring the internet incase something relents. If it wasn't for USADA would we even have some of the truth about Lance Armstrong's blood transfusion / EPO riddled history?

Most of this was already covered a while back during the court case mate.
There seems to have been some major efforts from some powers that be in Spain to subdue this.

It took years to get Fuentes into court.
He was only tried on public health grounds and not drug supplying.
When Fuentes stated he knew all the identities on a list of users he had supplied, the judge ruled he could not reveal them.
He stated that there were cyclists, footballers, tennis players and boxers on the list of athletes he supplied and/or doped.
WADA requested the blood bags (almost 100) in order to test them and identify users. This was refused by the judge, who ordered them to be destroyed.

Some names have been revealed but by other means. Often by witness statements in other cases followed by subsequent admissions.

There are estimations that around that time probably as much as 90+% of the peloton were juicing or doping and there were several high profile incidents, such as the Festina affair.

It needs to be said that Cycling (and athletics) are probably the most active in the drugs war and therefore they catch more, hence their poor record relative to other sports. Many sports only pay lip service to the fight and so appear to be cleaner.

It would also be true to say that certain national bodies are more active too, whilst other national bodies and drugs agencies do far too little in all sports.

Dunnylad wrote:Just finished Tyler Hamilton's book and you have to question whether anyone in cycling was riding clean and still is! Although what is thoroughly deploring is the stated fact that there are tennis players and footballers who Dr Fuentes was involved with and the fact that he was willing to expose the names in a court, I still find it incredible that no-one has so far managed to get those names out in the public domain, but there must be plenty of 'clients' worringly scouring the internet incase something relents. If it wasn't for USADA would we even have some of the truth about Lance Armstrong's blood transfusion / EPO riddled history?

That book was what caused me to post in the tdf thread a while back about being suspicious that anyone who is above the level of the field is at it.

Some of the stuff he reveals in that book about the blood doping is fucking jaw dropping, and leaves you in very little doubt that the spanish footballers (an possibly more) were upto the same tricks.

I have to admit though, I don't understand what's wrong with taking your blood out and putting it back in at some point down the line, and when it goes wrong and you get someone else's you rightly get caught and fucked for it as Hamilton was.

I remember when Jose first went to Chelsea he was having the players doing 'blood spinning' and other voodoo stuff which was of questionable legality, makes you wonder how he got that level of performance out of Porto the two years previous doesn't it?

Im_Spartacus wrote:

Dunnylad wrote:Just finished Tyler Hamilton's book and you have to question whether anyone in cycling was riding clean and still is! Although what is thoroughly deploring is the stated fact that there are tennis players and footballers who Dr Fuentes was involved with and the fact that he was willing to expose the names in a court, I still find it incredible that no-one has so far managed to get those names out in the public domain, but there must be plenty of 'clients' worringly scouring the internet incase something relents. If it wasn't for USADA would we even have some of the truth about Lance Armstrong's blood transfusion / EPO riddled history?

That book was what caused me to post in the tdf thread a while back about being suspicious that anyone who is above the level of the field is at it.

Some of the stuff he reveals in that book about the blood doping is fucking jaw dropping, and leaves you in very little doubt that the spanish footballers (an possibly more) were upto the same tricks.

I have to admit though, I don't understand what's wrong with taking your blood out and putting it back in at some point down the line, and when it goes wrong and you get someone else's you rightly get caught and fucked for it as Hamilton was.

I remember when Jose first went to Chelsea he was having the players doing 'blood spinning' and other voodoo stuff which was of questionable legality, makes you wonder how he got that level of performance out of Porto the two years previous doesn't it?

It's a question of what's in your blood that needs taking out an replacing with 'clean' (legal) blood via transfusion. Abnormal cell counts are usually a give-away. Alternatively you get your excuses in early like Barca have done with Neymar and claim he has a condition giving him a low blood cell count.

FFS, once again, the big difference between "now and then" is that now you know you'll get found out - eventually - but then, you didn't.

Thanks John68 much appreciated, David Millar's book was tame in terms of revelations, but Tyler Hamilton's was jaw dropping and his off hand comments make you wonder about O'Grady (before he was busted) and even Jens Voigt

What is wrong is that it should be cycling & athletics that is so tainted when the other sports are turning a blind eye or actively covering up.

Someone conceptualised Ireland's rapid rise & fall and you do wonder when everything is so rife in other sports how much football is tainted - not that I'm saying something was happening with Ireland, but the Fuentes evidence makes you wonder how wide spread it all is - in my eyes it's criminal we don't know, but then we also don't know how much the PL is bent in terms of refs & influential managers / teams so why should this be any different

Sparty,
I an uncertain what you mean by "what is wrong with taking your blood out etc...".
If you mean medically, then as long as it is done in a suitable environment by a qualified person, then I believe it to be a safe procedure. Dr Fuentes was tried and found guilty only of public health offences, regarding the clinical safety of the tranfusion area, storage and transportation environments he operated in.

If you mean what is wrong ethically, then we have to understand that the essence of sport is the measure of athletes/teams, competing in fair and open competition on a reasonably level playing field without any unfair advantage. (my simplistic definition).

Apart from what Dameerto has already posted, there is also a proven and definite aerobic advantage to be gained by retransfusing. Supposing a pint of blood is removed from an athlete and stored until such time as his/her body has replenished and recovered to its usual capacity. Retransfusing would mean the athlete would now have an extra pint in his circulatory system. As the blood is the vehicle by which oxygen is circulated round the body to regenerate the muscles etc, the extra blood means the body resupplied with much less effort and a far lower heart rate and less physical exertion = higher performance.

Sorry if that explanation was convoluted and cockeyed but I'm a cab driver not a doctor.

john68 wrote:Sparty,
I an uncertain what you mean by "what is wrong with taking your blood out etc...".
If you mean medically, then as long as it is done in a suitable environment by a qualified person, then I believe it to be a safe procedure. Dr Fuentes was tried and found guilty only of public health offences, regarding the clinical safety of the tranfusion area, storage and transportation environments he operated in.

If you mean what is wrong ethically, then we have to understand that the essence of sport is the measure of athletes/teams, competing in fair and open competition on a reasonably level playing field without any unfair advantage. (my simplistic definition).

Apart from what Dameerto has already posted, there is also a proven and definite aerobic advantage to be gained by retransfusing. Supposing a pint of blood is removed from an athlete and stored until such time as his/her body has replenished and recovered to its usual capacity. Retransfusing would mean the athlete would now have an extra pint in his circulatory system. As the blood is the vehicle by which oxygen is circulated round the body to regenerate the muscles etc, the extra blood means the body resupplied with much less effort and a far lower heart rate and less physical exertion = higher performance.

Sorry if that explanation was convoluted and cockeyed but I'm a cab driver not a doctor.

I think when you talk about ethically, I agree that if it gives you an edge, its always potentially going to be questionable just like Mourinho's blood spinning shenanigens. But on the other side of the coin, if its your own physiology and not affected by substances that didn't belong to you in the first place, so long as its medically ethical, not dangerous to you or others, why not do it?

Fair explanation btw, and when I was reading about this in Hamilton's book, I always wondered why adding a bag of blood didnt give them higher blood pressure, but like you say, thats probably the sort of simplification which shows why were not doctors haha.

What makes me wonder with footballers, is that the extent this stuff was happening within the peloton gave a half reasonable defence of 'I couldnt compete on a level playing field if I didnt do it', and I do have some sympathy with that view. But what would the Spanish footballers' and Barcelona's excuse be?

Just sticking with the cycling...
At a team level, being a comparatively poor sport financially, teams have to ensure they satisfy their sponsors and financial backers top guarantee income and survival. Winning races and stages as well as being on TV in breakaways is crucial. They HAVE to compete and riders HAVE to ensure that their masters are happy. With 90% of the peloton juicing and doping, you can see the pressure they are under.
Individually, riders are looking for contracts to pay their bills/feed their families and to keep their jobs. They HAVE to perform.
The cycling authorities have to develop the sport and grow it globally and commercially. They HAVE to ensure cycling puts on a sporting show to ensure global income.....Very simply and in a nutshell, doping and juicing benefited everyone...The omerta (shhhhh!).

Beyond cycling, that latter reason affects other sports. Simple answer, "If we don't test, we don't catch the culprits, no negative stories, our sport is clean."

I'll deal with testing in a separate post.

After the Armstrong case,USADA made the point that it wan't the testing that nailed him but the overwhelming weight of witness statements and evidence gathered over a long period of sustained effort by a number of agencies (Police etc) and the doggedness and courage of certain journalists. WADA and (in that particular case) USADA were unable to do it alone.

There is cause for optimism in certain sports such as cycling and athletics.
The "Biological Passport", the "Anywhere/Anytime" policy, the longer term storage of samples coupled with retrospective testing for new substances (such as Alcar) for which there has yet to be acceptable levels set (it occurs naturally in the body), longer bans and importantly, a new attitude and will to race clean from within the teams and riders themselves.

With regard to your question about football...Whilst the benefits of cheating are more marked in individual, strength or aerobically based sports, they are less beneficial in skill based or team games. There are obvious benefits in football: increased fitness/strength etc but substance/blood abuse does nothing to enhance how a payer times a tackle,traps a ball or how accurately he crosses or dribbles. For the likes of Barca, it would help their fitness levels to increase their workload and assist them to play a high octane game. Though there is no evidence to confirm it, it has been noted just how hard certain teams work, tackling back etc, off the ball.

Hope that is helpful, I have tried to be balanced and as factual as I can.