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This goes out to Bib, Duckman, Cit.Revenge and others who know anything:

How is it that the countries of former Yugoslavia spent several years killing each other in quite gruesome and meticulous ways, but whenever people from the different republics of the Balkans of today end up at City, they gang together like it ain't no thing. I remember seeing the video when Dzeko joined and Kolarov was waiting for him. Jovetic called Nastacic to enquire about City. It seems that the war is a thing of the past. Is it like that among the regular people who aren't paid millions to kick a ball around as well or is this a football thing?

I suppose the overwhelming majority of players were very young kids during the wars. There are more important things to them all, like shared language, music (Serbo-Croatian has without a doubt the strongest musical heritage in Europe after the English language), sense of humour, etc. It's the same at conferences I attend - all the ex-Yugoslav delegates tend to bunch together, and even the Kosovans will speak in Serbo-Croatian, even though they would never dream of doing so in their home country.

That's just reminded me for Antti - I'm sure I read that Kolarov comes from a relatively middle-class background.

BlueinBosnia wrote:I suppose the overwhelming majority of players were very young kids during the wars. There are more important things to them all, like shared language, music (Serbo-Croatian has without a doubt the strongest musical heritage in Europe after the English language), sense of humour, etc. It's the same at conferences I attend - all the ex-Yugoslav delegates tend to bunch together, and even the Kosovans will speak in Serbo-Croatian, even though they would never dream of doing so in their home country.

That's just reminded me for Antti - I'm sure I read that Kolarov comes from a relatively middle-class background.

Proves my point, Kolarov shouldn't be playing professional football.

Same reason Bert Trautmann wasn't a rabid Nazi. In wars people are the pawns of higher powers.

Tony P wrote:Same reason Bert Trautmann wasn't a rabid Nazi. In wars people are the pawns of higher powers.

Not quite the same

Scatman wrote:

Tony P wrote:Same reason Bert Trautmann wasn't a rabid Nazi. In wars people are the pawns of higher powers.

Not quite the same

No, not quite, but similar ;)

Would it be similar in a way to a team from Sarajevo signing two kids from Belfast, one from either side of the divide?

BlueinBosnia wrote:I suppose the overwhelming majority of players were very young kids during the wars. There are more important things to them all, like shared language, music (Serbo-Croatian has without a doubt the strongest musical heritage in Europe after the English language), sense of humour, etc. It's the same at conferences I attend - all the ex-Yugoslav delegates tend to bunch together, and even the Kosovans will speak in Serbo-Croatian, even though they would never dream of doing so in their home country.

That's just reminded me for Antti - I'm sure I read that Kolarov comes from a relatively middle-class background.

Good to know. So outside of politicians, there really aren't that many bad feelings between people nowadays?

Cocacolajojo wrote:

BlueinBosnia wrote:I suppose the overwhelming majority of players were very young kids during the wars. There are more important things to them all, like shared language, music (Serbo-Croatian has without a doubt the strongest musical heritage in Europe after the English language), sense of humour, etc. It's the same at conferences I attend - all the ex-Yugoslav delegates tend to bunch together, and even the Kosovans will speak in Serbo-Croatian, even though they would never dream of doing so in their home country.

That's just reminded me for Antti - I'm sure I read that Kolarov comes from a relatively middle-class background.

Good to know. So outside of politicians, there really aren't that many bad feelings between people nowadays?

Yes and no. Some people like to blame other ethno-religio-nationalities for problems nowadays, most don't. However (and this is talking strictly from a BiH perspective) rapid urbanisation in the lead up to the war (especially of Sarajevo, after the construction of its Winter Olympic infrastructure and Banja Luka, which was destroyed by an earthquake in the 1960s and rebuilt as a 'planned city', with massive suburbs), and especially after the war (with Eastern Bosnians, who were traditionally more conservative in both ethnicities that dominated the area, and Sandjaks, Serbian Muslims, who are a lot more ethno-nationalistic than Bosnian Muslims, both moving en masse to towns and cities) make it a lot harder to untangle than your traditional 'town-village' divide.

My girlfriend's a Serb, and her best friends are a Croat (female) and Muslim (male) couple. All of their families were on different sides of the lines during the war, but nobody gives a toss. However, they all know that they will occasionally get problems if they go into the wrong bar and people hear their names, especially as a 'mixed' group.

I posted this article on my Facebook wall a couple of days back (http://pescanik.net/2012/03/mixed-marriages/). It describes perfectly the general problems for 'liberal' couples in Sarajevo (which tries to promote itself as a beacon of tolerance and liberal-ness to the outside world) today.

What people want to know -- are their fans all spastics? Yes or No. Circle one.

BlueinBosnia wrote:

Cocacolajojo wrote:

BlueinBosnia wrote:I suppose the overwhelming majority of players were very young kids during the wars. There are more important things to them all, like shared language, music (Serbo-Croatian has without a doubt the strongest musical heritage in Europe after the English language), sense of humour, etc. It's the same at conferences I attend - all the ex-Yugoslav delegates tend to bunch together, and even the Kosovans will speak in Serbo-Croatian, even though they would never dream of doing so in their home country.

That's just reminded me for Antti - I'm sure I read that Kolarov comes from a relatively middle-class background.

Good to know. So outside of politicians, there really aren't that many bad feelings between people nowadays?

Yes and no. Some people like to blame other ethno-religio-nationalities for problems nowadays, most don't. However (and this is talking strictly from a BiH perspective) rapid urbanisation in the lead up to the war (especially of Sarajevo, after the construction of its Winter Olympic infrastructure and Banja Luka, which was destroyed by an earthquake in the 1960s and rebuilt as a 'planned city', with massive suburbs), and especially after the war (with Eastern Bosnians, who were traditionally more conservative in both ethnicities that dominated the area, and Sandjaks, Serbian Muslims, who are a lot more ethno-nationalistic than Bosnian Muslims, both moving en masse to towns and cities) make it a lot harder to untangle than your traditional 'town-village' divide.

My girlfriend's a Serb, and her best friends are a Croat (female) and Muslim (male) couple. All of their families were on different sides of the lines during the war, but nobody gives a toss. However, they all know that they will occasionally get problems if they go into the wrong bar and people hear their names, especially as a 'mixed' group.

I posted this article on my Facebook wall a couple of days back (http://pescanik.net/2012/03/mixed-marriages/). It describes perfectly the general problems for 'liberal' couples in Sarajevo (which tries to promote itself as a beacon of tolerance and liberal-ness to the outside world) today.

To add my view to this excellent reply and others above. Like most wars it was about politics, power and greed.

The few got rich at the expense of the many. Dont underestimate outside self interest internally and from the EU (especially UK and Germany), USA, Russia and others in the break up of the former Yugoslavia. (Paddy Ashdown was one of the few politicians to emerge with any credit) Foreign companies have taken control of many previously strong industries whilst others have been lost leaving the door open for exports into states "impoverished through war" - not that you would notice! Now we have the EU with its roadmap for membership of the former states of Yugoslavia with Croatia becoming a member on 1 July 2013.

EU membership, as with so much, appears to be decisions by politicians without mandate. Travelling from BiH to Croatia on 1 July, the border crossing was blocked by protesters, lorries and cars on the BiH side and we had to find an alternative route. Business and politics go hand in hand.

There were issues over power, control and interests but most people still identify with the former state of Yugoslavia whilst recognising people do hold grudges and resentment from the war. At the same time there are strong bonds between those who fought together and tell a different story from what we usually read. Where people were tolerent and got on well what ever their beliefs or where they lived, politics created artificial divides.

President Josep Broz Tito had succeeded in unifying the Balkans after WW2 to create the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. He died in 1980 leaving a power vacuum in Yugoslavia but with the size and resources to become a major economic power in Europe. Tito has been described as a benign dictator with his brand of communist capitalism that saw the nation prosper and grow. No doubt his death sparked a power grab from outside that eventually led to war. Factions that happily lived side by side were divided to rule. One of the most cosmopolitan areas is the current BiH which became a major battleground.

Many people were displaced by war around Europe including places like Denmark, Netherlands and even the UK. Places that suffered like Mostar and Sarajevo in BiH have been rebuilt and people are starting to return with new ideas although pockets of prejudice remain. (Yugoslav languages have a common basis but different dialects are not always easily understood between states. The western alphabet is increasingly being used as well as cyrillic.)

So back to OP's question. The players will still relate to the former Yugoslavia state and the Tito legacy of what might have been as a major economic nation in Europe. They will have more in common than differences. Culture, values, outlook, food, music and language will be common. (think English, Irish, Scots, Welsh who fight each other but fought and died as comrades with each other) They are a proud, hard working peoples whose outlook is not so far removed from the best we offer in the UK. We could learn from them.

spiny wrote:
To add my view to this excellent reply and others above. Like most wars it was about politics, power and greed.

The few got rich at the expense of the many. Dont underestimate outside self interest internally and from the EU (especially UK and Germany), USA, Russia and others in the break up of the former Yugoslavia. (Paddy Ashdown was one of the few politicians to emerge with any credit) Foreign companies have taken control of many previously strong industries whilst others have been lost leaving the door open for exports into states "impoverished through war" - not that you would notice! Now we have the EU with its roadmap for membership of the former states of Yugoslavia with Croatia becoming a member on 1 July 2013.

EU membership, as with so much, appears to be decisions by politicians without mandate. Travelling from BiH to Croatia on 1 July, the border crossing was blocked by protesters, lorries and cars on the BiH side and we had to find an alternative route. Business and politics go hand in hand.

There were issues over power, control and interests but most people still identify with the former state of Yugoslavia whilst recognising people do hold grudges and resentment from the war. At the same time there are strong bonds between those who fought together and tell a different story from what we usually read. Where people were tolerent and got on well what ever their beliefs or where they lived, politics created artificial divides.

President Josep Broz Tito had succeeded in unifying the Balkans after WW2 to create the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. He died in 1980 leaving a power vacuum in Yugoslavia but with the size and resources to become a major economic power in Europe. Tito has been described as a benign dictator with his brand of communist capitalism that saw the nation prosper and grow. No doubt his death sparked a power grab from outside that eventually led to war. Factions that happily lived side by side were divided to rule. One of the most cosmopolitan areas is the current BiH which became a major battleground.

Many people were displaced by war around Europe including places like Denmark, Netherlands and even the UK. Places that suffered like Mostar and Sarajevo in BiH have been rebuilt and people are starting to return with new ideas although pockets of prejudice remain. (Yugoslav languages have a common basis but different dialects are not always easily understood between states. The western alphabet is increasingly being used as well as cyrillic.)

So back to OP's question. The players will still relate to the former Yugoslavia state and the Tito legacy of what might have been as a major economic nation in Europe. They will have more in common than differences. Culture, values, outlook, food, music and language will be common. (think English, Irish, Scots, Welsh who fight each other but fought and died as comrades with each other) They are a proud, hard working peoples whose outlook is not so far removed from the best we offer in the UK. We could learn from them.

Thanks for this answers and the others above. Clears up a lot for me.

blue in bosnia read your posts with great interest respect mate

To add a bit of perspective. Yugoslavia covered an area similar to GB or the UK with a third of the population so great scope for growth and expansion.

It is self sufficient in areas such as food and has hydro-electric power generation. The fragmentation and breakup meant easy pickings for outsiders and payoffs for insiders. Cynic? Moi? Oui?

Whats new? For anyone not familiar with history and the Balkans (ie Yugoslavia)
Balkanisation Definitions
verb
tr to divide (a territory) into small warring states
to divide (a group or organization) into small factions

This is all about politicians not individuals. Why would the City players not welcome each other and get on?

spiny wrote:It is self sufficient in areas such as food and has hydro-electric power generation. The fragmentation and breakup meant easy pickings for outsiders and payoffs for insiders. Cynic? Moi? Oui?

A great example of this, in combination with the other points you made above about the vested interests, is the fact that all of the ex-Yu countries produce significantly more renewable energy (with the exception of Macedonia - possibly the cleanest country I have ever visited) than the EU average (Montenegro tops the list at near 60%, in comparison to the UK's 6% and Germany's better-than-average 22%), and yet will be forced to only sell energy-saving lightbulbs, to a population which cannot afford these EU-approved imports.

France and Germany had vested interests in the break up of the country, undoubtedly. The UK had a Prime Minister who thought it was a Soviet satellite state (it was in fact the main country in the Non-Alligned movement). No joke:

"[The break up of Yugoslavia is due to] the collapse of the Soviet Union and of the discipline that that exerted over the ancient hatreds in the old Yugoslavia. Once that discipline had disappeared, those ancient hatreds reappeared and we began to see their consequences when the fighting occurred" (Hansard, 23 June 1992)

Tony P wrote:In wars people are the pawns of higher powers.

Sums it up for me.

Interesting, informed points of view on here

Mate we have much in common to this animosity could be effective out there. It is too delicate topic for the football forum. I'll tell you just that people are most of them have not developed critical thinking for years that single-mindedness of Communism here was not bad and cruel but it was still Communism.That is the main reason of war because people could not stop and say to it self " Hey wait a fuckin second wtf we are doing and maybe tv and leaders lie ". Hate only is bring on when it s time for elections, these politicians say this shit , these other say other shit and people out of fear and lack of civic consciousness they vote for the same idiots, but hatred is less as the years go by because we have many more other problems.So out there we are still one Country in a sense.

Cit.revenge wrote:Mate we have much in common to this animosity could be effective out there. It is too delicate topic for the football forum. I'll tell you just that people are most of them have not developed critical thinking for years that single-mindedness of Communism here was not bad and cruel but it was still Communism.That is the main reason of war because people could not stop and say to it self " Hey wait a fuckin second wtf we are doing and maybe tv and leaders lie ". Hate only is bring on when it s time for elections, these politicians say this shit , these other say other shit and people out of fear and lack of civic consciousness they vote for the same idiots, but hatred is less as the years go by because we have many more other problems.So out there we are still one Country in a sense.

Your view is one which I respect but cannot agee with. Tito united the country. Self interested parties both internal and external tore it apart both socially and economically. by war Who gained? We now see vultures like the EU at the carcass of the spoils of war in the name of regeneration.

Maybe your view has some validity but it is no different from the manipulation in the UK and EU that goes under the name of democracy. What percentage of the electorate votes did the coalition get and what were the alaternative options? Oh, forgot to mention FIFA and EUFA in the same category and yes even the hallowed FA.

And they say match betting gambling is fixed ....

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Alioune DVToure wrote:Would it be similar in a way to a team from Sarajevo signing two kids from Belfast, one from either side of the divide?

Nah we'd still fcking hate each other ;)