Tactical Disaster

[bayblue]

And as you say, get sent off. I was saying the same, then he changed it v Barca. If he can change it for that, then he can also adapt when we are fighting for the title, with a half fit team.

But will he? Doubt it somehow. Sure as he'll Palace and Everton will both try to exploit our weaknesses is next couple of games.

[Hazy2]

And I would add, that if we'd kept Barry, we would now be pretty much champions.

Barry in that two man midfield would have ground to a halt, literally, stuck in the grass. It's the system, not the players (at this point of the season anyway).

It's not ideal for him, but he did it many times successfully with Yaya or Nige. Barry is on another planet compared to Garcia for instance, when it comes to reading the game. Garcia has to make full length sliding tackles to do stuff Barry would do without breaking sweat, because he's already read it. He makes those around him play better, by doing shit they would have to do, because he sees it so early.

No comparison imo.

I always thought Barry and Milner could have shared that role, apprentice if you like, now I feel sorry for both one was forced out and the other is heading for a Micah type demise. Poor waste of decent talent who are better than an improved Garcia, he could hardly have got worse TBH. Brutal truth it has failed anyway, so daft idea.

[blues2win]

I've been saying this for ages we need three in central midfield which means Garcia and Fernandinho playing a holding role. That then frees up Yaya to play further forward. Going forward we clearly need someone to rotate at right back with Zaba as well as a centre back. We also need to see more dividend from our EDS spending over the next season or two. I'm frustrated with Nasri because he should really be doing the business when Silva's not playing but maybe he's knackered. With so few games to go and the chance of a Premier League title you'd think adrenalin would carry them over the finishing line but apparently not.

[Ted Hughes]

Personally, I would prefer our basic system to be exactly the one Txiki has installed in the rest of the club, ie 4-3-3.

Which type of 4-3-3 we operate, & which players selected, I would change to adapt to the oppo, but I would start with 4-3-3 then use his 4-2-2-2 as an alternative, along with 4-5-1 etc, rather than starting 4-2-2-2. I don't agree with the idea of two strikers right up front marked, ever, unless they are Ian Wright & Mark Bright, or Ferdinand & Shearer. It just leaves a fucking big hole in the team & we lose the ball whenever we pass it to them.

I would also consider adapting the 433 further to Pep's 3-4-3 once we had nailed it, to help v bus parkers. Gareth Taylor has even had the U16s doing that on occasion apparently.

[bayblue]

Personally, I would prefer our basic system to be exactly the one Txiki has installed in the rest of the club, ie 4-3-3. Which type of 4-3-3 we operate, & which players selected, I would change to adapt to the oppo, but I would start with 4-3-3 then use his 4-2-2-2 as an alternative, along with 4-5-1 etc, rather than starting 4-2-2-2. I don't agree with the idea of two strikers right up front marked, ever, unless they are Ian Wright & Mark Bright, or Ferdinand & Shearer. It just leaves a fucking big hole in the team & we lose the ball whenever we pass it to them. I would also consider adapting the 433 further to Pep's 3-4-3 once we had nailed it, to help v bus parkers. Gareth Taylor has even had the U16s doing that on occasion apparently.

Agree with that.
Fundamental point though is that we are flexible and innovative enough to be able to adapt according to player availability and capability.
That's hard to achieve in practice, (remember Mancinis several attempts at 3 at the back?) hence why he might want a more settled approach and be prepared to live (or die) with the ups and downs of it.

[Ted Hughes]

Personally, I would prefer our basic system to be exactly the one Txiki has installed in the rest of the club, ie 4-3-3. Which type of 4-3-3 we operate, & which players selected, I would change to adapt to the oppo, but I would start with 4-3-3 then use his 4-2-2-2 as an alternative, along with 4-5-1 etc, rather than starting 4-2-2-2. I don't agree with the idea of two strikers right up front marked, ever, unless they are Ian Wright & Mark Bright, or Ferdinand & Shearer. It just leaves a fucking big hole in the team & we lose the ball whenever we pass it to them. I would also consider adapting the 433 further to Pep's 3-4-3 once we had nailed it, to help v bus parkers. Gareth Taylor has even had the U16s doing that on occasion apparently.

Agree with that.
Fundamental point though is that we are flexible and innovative enough to be able to adapt according to player availability and capability.
That's hard to achieve in practice, (remember Mancinis several attempts at 3 at the back?) hence why he might want a more settled approach and be prepared to live (or die) with the ups and downs of it.

I don't think Zabba or Kolarov have the brains or talent to play 3 at the back, & Micah Clichy certainly don't. In fact I'd rather see any of them as one of the 3, than one of the wingbacks. Some of the kids do though.

[Wonderwall]

Personally, I would prefer our basic system to be exactly the one Txiki has installed in the rest of the club, ie 4-3-3. Which type of 4-3-3 we operate, & which players selected, I would change to adapt to the oppo, but I would start with 4-3-3 then use his 4-2-2-2 as an alternative, along with 4-5-1 etc, rather than starting 4-2-2-2. I don't agree with the idea of two strikers right up front marked, ever, unless they are Ian Wright & Mark Bright, or Ferdinand & Shearer. It just leaves a fucking big hole in the team & we lose the ball whenever we pass it to them. I would also consider adapting the 433 further to Pep's 3-4-3 once we had nailed it, to help v bus parkers. Gareth Taylor has even had the U16s doing that on occasion apparently.

Agree with that.
Fundamental point though is that we are flexible and innovative enough to be able to adapt according to player availability and capability.
That's hard to achieve in practice, (remember Mancinis several attempts at 3 at the back?) hence why he might want a more settled approach and be prepared to live (or die) with the ups and downs of it.

I don't think Zabba or Kolarov have the brains or talent to play 3 at the back, & Micah Clichy certainly don't. In fact I'd rather see any of them as one of the 3, than one of the wingbacks. Some of the kids do though.

why would you put them in a back 3?

----- MDM --- Kompany --- Nastasic/Lescott-------

Zabba----Silva----Fernandinho----Nasri------Milner/Clichy

-------------Toure
--------------------------Aguero

Lots of areas we can mix and match with that, Toure and Silva changing (Dzeko, Kolarov, Negredo, Jovetic, Richards)

[Beefymcfc]

Are we now saying that Pellers isn't the tactical genius we thought he was?

[getdressedmctavish]

If the epitaph is to be written for our title challenge the following decisions will count against the Count.
1, letting Barry go because it was a choice between him and Rodwell(Barry's own words), an ever present v a never fit, as ridiculous a decision as could be made
2, the marginalisation of Milner and Lescott and in particular insisting Milner is a winger rather than a utility player
3the decision to stick with Garcia rather than buying a high energy destroyer(as hard as an improved Garcia has tried)
4the failure to see the value of 451 in many situations
5letting games drift

That said our defeats and point losses have all been by the odd goal(I think) which suggests that with some wheeling and dealing things can be put right. We need players of a type, not necessarily the greatest players in the world.

Can we go to Palace and show the right approach re the kicking that will go on? Can we stifle Everton's wing play. If we go like fancy dans we'll deservedly get fuck all, imo

[Ted Hughes]

Personally, I would prefer our basic system to be exactly the one Txiki has installed in the rest of the club, ie 4-3-3. Which type of 4-3-3 we operate, & which players selected, I would change to adapt to the oppo, but I would start with 4-3-3 then use his 4-2-2-2 as an alternative, along with 4-5-1 etc, rather than starting 4-2-2-2. I don't agree with the idea of two strikers right up front marked, ever, unless they are Ian Wright & Mark Bright, or Ferdinand & Shearer. It just leaves a fucking big hole in the team & we lose the ball whenever we pass it to them. I would also consider adapting the 433 further to Pep's 3-4-3 once we had nailed it, to help v bus parkers. Gareth Taylor has even had the U16s doing that on occasion apparently.

Agree with that.
Fundamental point though is that we are flexible and innovative enough to be able to adapt according to player availability and capability.
That's hard to achieve in practice, (remember Mancinis several attempts at 3 at the back?) hence why he might want a more settled approach and be prepared to live (or die) with the ups and downs of it.

I don't think Zabba or Kolarov have the brains or talent to play 3 at the back, & Micah Clichy certainly don't. In fact I'd rather see any of them as one of the 3, than one of the wingbacks. Some of the kids do though.

why would you put them in a back 3?

----- MDM --- Kompany --- Nastasic/Lescott-------

Zabba----Silva----Fernandinho----Nasri------Milner/Clichy

-------------Toure
--------------------------Aguero

Lots of areas we can mix and match with that, Toure and Silva changing (Dzeko, Kolarov, Negredo, Jovetic, Richards)

Woah I'm not advocating doing it now ! That WOULD kill the season off ;)

I'm talking in the future, if we mastered 4-3-3 we could also then learn 3 at the back, but I'm also talking Pep's Barca style, 3-4-3 rather than Mancini's system, so my 'wingbacks' comment was a bit misleading in that there wouldn't actually be any fullback types at all as it's a 'diamond' hence not especially suited to fullback types.

In the Prem, at least two of the back 3 would probably have to be 'proper' centre backs, to deal with centre forwards, but the 3rd could be a more mobile, quicker type. Pep did it without defenders of course!

Example: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/29/ ... l-tactics/

[Hazy2]

The thread on spoilt, yep that is me. Goals we have had a ton, we just have a flakey look when faced with runners, super stars and delevering when it matters, What worries me is the dippers have managed it ?, that has to be the txiki question, no pun intended

[Ted Hughes]

The thread on spoilt, yep that is me. Goals we have had a ton, we just have a flakey look when faced with runners, super stars and delevering when it matters, What worries me is the dippers have managed it ?, that has to be the txiki question, no pun intended

If we had 3 up top playing every week as consistenly well as theirs, then we could also just play on the counter & score shitloads. Add to that the free kicks & pens.

It relies on naivety from the oppo too, which we had in spades v them, & brilliant set piece conversion. It can't last imo. People will be working on it for next season & they will also be less sharp due to more games. Almost everything has gone right for them all season in an attacking sense & it's almost unheard of. Even now, the slightest loss of efficiency going forward & they would finish 3rd.

[Hazy2]

The thread on spoilt, yep that is me. Goals we have had a ton, we just have a flakey look when faced with runners, super stars and delevering when it matters, What worries me is the dippers have managed it ?, that has to be the txiki question, no pun intended

If we had 3 up top playing every week as consistenly well as theirs, then we could also just play on the counter & score shitloads. Add to that the free kicks & pens.

It relies on naivety from the oppo too, which we had in spades v them, & brilliant set piece conversion. It can't last imo. People will be working on it for next season & they will also be less sharp due to more games. Almost everything has gone right for them all season in an attacking sense & it's almost unheard of. Even now, the slightest loss of efficiency going forward & they would finish 3rd.

Ted they were very unlucky at our place, we froze at Anfield, made mistakes and paid for it, we have goals in us by the bucket load, we do not have the ability to shut a game down ride a storm and battle. Every time we have faced teams this season and I do not include Bayern away as that was just a dead rubber. We have made errors and been found wanting, IMHO Pellers is a decent bloke he lacks the hard nosed edge to be a winner, I wish it was not the case, it just is and he at 6o+ is not gonna change, Nice is great, it will not defeat the best. The dippers will not fade away Rodgers is a very good manager and they will attract players.

[Crossie]

After the initial fervour of last night (good effort from the fans involved to try & create an atmosphere), once the players had half killed it with one of the most pathetic pieces of team play seen since the 1st div relegation season, I really tried to detatch myself from the proceedings & just figure out exactly what we were doing. One major factor, tbf, is that several players are clearly knackered & are pushing themselves to stay with the pace; Nasri/Zabba to name but 2. Fernandinho is also boderline buggered. That is outside the Count's control & a big problem. BUT, all the tactical evolution from early season & the improvements on it during the season have pretty much gone & in its place is what can only be described as a dog's breakfast. This is absolutely no different to Moyes' rags team, just better players. The system, doesn't exist anymore, it is a complete & utter mess. We have a 'high line' apart from when we don't. We have overlapping fullbacks who don't overlap, & if they did, they would have nobody to pass to because we have two up front but sometimes nobody up front. One slow, average, midfielder trying to patrol 50 square yards of space in front of the defence (who gets a huge cheer every time he manages to actually do it). One of the West Brom midfielders yesterday, made a pass inside Zabba, to a runner who ran behind him (this was how teams tore us apart pre season on both sides). A mate said: 'great ball that' . It was, but it is a pass almost any Premier League midfield can play. Usually, at that level, a player doesn't get the time to get himself perfectly positioned, look up & see a huge gap between cb & fullback, thus stick the ball through it. This is testimonial match level team defending. When you see this kind of stuff happening, as a manager, & we are in a title run in, you just act to fix it. One time, Aguero & Nasri were stood, marked, 50 yards up from the rest of our team & West Brom had the ball. Our defence was split from the midfield; it was like watching England in the heat in Mexico in 1970. Pellegrini has just sat & watched this kind of thing happen for 3 games in a row; oppo midfield/attack collecting the ball at the halfwayline in acres of space & running at our back 4. The 'pressing game' only happens for about 5 mins per match; it is failing. Then we are just left with nothing. We need to adapt, tighten up, play proper title fighting football & win these fucking games. If we do, we will probably be champions. Football philosphy & development is fine, but the players are fucked & they have stopped doing most of it. We have spells of brilliance where we take hold of the game, then we flag. We are getting in 'result' positions in these games then risking being torn apart. The Utd game even, was the same. When the effort level drops, we need to get them into a simple, solid shape & battle for the title, not worry about looking good. We have better players then anyone who we will play against & can get our noses in front. Do it, then form up, then counter attack. We can go back to the non defending everybody goes forward stuff next season. Am I the only one who is noticing this ?

I went last night, spot on observations.

Not at all promising, too much reliance on silva, yaya and Aguero to make magic things happen. Not enough following of the tactics we presume the team are told ore-game.

Also Nasri was hiding, even when Silva went off, receive ball - pass - hide behind defender.

[Twobob]

I went last night, spot on observations. Not at all promising, too much reliance on silva, yaya and Aguero to make magic things happen. Not enough following of the tactics we presume the team are told ore-game. Also Nasri was hiding, even when Silva went off, receive ball - pass - hide behind defender.

It was the same against Sunderland too, last night Zabba would receive the ball on the wing and instead of Nasri running into the acres of space ahead of him towards their goal he back tracked towards ours so Zabba ended up playing it square. Happened too many times.

When Silva was carried off heads dropped and it seemed like we had 10 men on the pitch.

[Twobob]

As has already been mentioned, the foundations of a solid defence and midfield have not been there all season, we've been prolific up front and that has been our defence in a way, but now that isn't there anymore our dodgy foundations are showing themselves as the work of Wimpy homes.

We've constantly seen our midfielders outnumbered by the opposition, now that we're a bit weaker up front and teams have sussed us out (in addition to the fatigue ) our soft underbelly has been exposed.

Garcia is good cover, and no matter how much he has improved he hasn't the pace or agility, Yaya is best at going forward and although he is solid at putting challenges in if it isn't in his stride he won't get there. Ferdi has often been left to cover the whole midfield often 1 vs 3.

So you often see our back 4 in the box, the oppo's midfield, forwards and in some cases their full backs pressing on the back four while our 'midfield' flaps around chasing shadows.

Mostly, when the play is in front of us our back 4 have been fantastic unless we're caught on the counter and we look all over the place, its crosses behind us that make me worry.

At this stage of the season I'd love to see us just win 1-0 and look relatively unthreatened at the back just for once!

[Hazy2]

Palace have a player Jedinac if spelt wrong sorry, watch him cover every blade on Sunday he is the heartbeat for them, leads by example. On paper they are 100 mph, fine ride the 1st 20 mins and allow your ability to create a chance or two.
Tough game lots of energy, I hope I am wrong but if we get it wrong it will be a tough end to our season as the dippers may have piled on the pressure against a Chelsea team who might have thrown the towel in. Depends upon tonight. This City team has to deal with hard working teams like Palace if we want to be a dominant force. That is where the dippers have won it, and years into the project we seem to be the same at the so called lesser lights.

[clippo22]

Relieved to read that Everton will be without Kevin Mirralles for the ret if the season, their midfield will look weaker without him or Barry in it.

Regarding out tactics, recently with Garcia in midfield a lot if the time he is so deep he in between kompany and MD. Meaning it literally is just Ferna in midfield when the wingers have pushed right up. Our biggest problem recently has been our lack or urgency or tempo. Gary Neville talked about it last night regarding the scum and I think recently a lot of it applies to us. Haven't created enough, build up play is far too slow and we have lots of possession without doing much with it. We need urgency and tempo, not urgency in the last 5 which then turns to panic and poor decision making.

Nasri slows the play down too much, agree that jovetic needs more game time. He was constantly looking for the ball yesterday and he was putting in too much effort when those around him weren't really interested in making runs and creating more opportunities.

[Wonderwall]

Relieved to read that Everton will be without Kevin Mirralles for the ret if the season, their midfield will look weaker without him or Barry in it.

Regarding out tactics, recently with Garcia in midfield a lot if the time he is so deep he in between kompany and MD. Meaning it literally is just Ferna in midfield when the wingers have pushed right up. Our biggest problem recently has been our lack or urgency or tempo. Gary Neville talked about it last night regarding the scum and I think recently a lot of it applies to us. Haven't created enough, build up play is far too slow and we have lots of possession without doing much with it. We need urgency and tempo, not urgency in the last 5 which then turns to panic and poor decision making.

Nasri slows the play down too much, agree that jovetic needs more game time. He was constantly looking for the ball yesterday and he was putting in too much effort when those around him weren't really interested in making runs and creating more opportunities.

I am hoping Yaya will be back for the toffees game

[zuricity]

Relieved to read that Everton will be without Kevin Mirralles for the ret if the season, their midfield will look weaker without him or Barry in it.

Regarding out tactics, recently with Garcia in midfield a lot if the time he is so deep he in between kompany and MD. Meaning it literally is just Ferna in midfield when the wingers have pushed right up. Our biggest problem recently has been our lack or urgency or tempo. Gary Neville talked about it last night regarding the scum and I think recently a lot of it applies to us. Haven't created enough, build up play is far too slow and we have lots of possession without doing much with it. We need urgency and tempo, not urgency in the last 5 which then turns to panic and poor decision making.

Nasri slows the play down too much, agree that jovetic needs more game time. He was constantly looking for the ball yesterday and he was putting in too much effort when those around him weren't really interested in making runs and creating more opportunities.

I don't know , people keep forgetting that teams,(Sunderland,scouse,wba) keep packing their box with 10 defenders when we play them. Scouse were doing this with Norwich yesterday and still nearly came unstuck.

I mean , look at Sterlings second goal for scouse on sunday . Gifted the ball in scouses half and was allowed to run all the way to the Norwich box.

I think the urgency is there, it's just damn difficult to break through so many players defending compactly in 'their' box.