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I wanted to start this topic with comments posted in the Klose thread and with Suarez rabies, because I can't really decide on this matter.

To become a truly great player, do you just measure pure ability or do you also count a player's sense of fair play, his tendency to throw himself around on the pitch at the slightest touch, etc?

I want to say that I'm in the camp that also count personality on the pitch and not just only ability, but I can't really make my mind up. I like the fact that Messi doesn't fall down easily, but at the same time, if Suarez came back after this suspension and literally broke every record possible in his last active 4 or 5 years, I'm not sure I would think that Messi is better than him just because he's more fair play than Suarez.

What do you lot think?

Also, as a bonus question: Can you become a true great if you've never taken your national team far in the World Cup? I.E, if Argentina crashes out in the next two games because Messi fades away, would you hold that against him? I would, a little bit at least.

Of course personality matters. Besides Messi and Suarez are same age and Messi has been among three best players about seven years or so already. There's nothing Suarez could do to match Messi over their respective careers.

You'd have to take international success into account but Messi has some of that as well. Olympics winner, Copa America runner up and twice been to World Cup quarterfinals. 2010 he was easily one of the best players in tournament.

Messi is the greatest player I have ever seen in my twenty odd years watching football, world cup or no world cup. I think sometimes players don't get the credit they deserve when playing but once they retire they get appreciated for what they truly are(in general, I know messi gets a lot of praise).

Cocacolajojo wrote:I wanted to start this topic with comments posted in the Klose thread and with Suarez rabies, because I can't really decide on this matter.

To become a truly great player, do you just measure pure ability or do you also count a player's sense of fair play, his tendency to throw himself around on the pitch at the slightest touch, etc?

I want to say that I'm in the camp that also count personality on the pitch and not just only ability, but I can't really make my mind up. I like the fact that Messi doesn't fall down easily, but at the same time, if Suarez came back after this suspension and literally broke every record possible in his last active 4 or 5 years, I'm not sure I would think that Messi is better than him just because he's more fair play than Suarez.

What do you lot think?

Also, as a bonus question: Can you become a true great if you've never taken your national team far in the World Cup? I.E, if Argentina crashes out in the next two games because Messi fades away, would you hold that against him? I would, a little bit at least.

Puskas finished runner up with Hungary in 1954 and I don't think it harmed his standing in terms of greatness. Sometimes it is about the team around you and in Messi's case certainly in defence Argentina haven't been the strongest in the past. However, of the modern era he's done more at an international level than the Fake Ronaldo so there's some kudos there.

I don't think international success matters TBH, otherwise we're saying that if you're born in the wrong country(and don't have the right grandparents) then you can never be a true great no matter what you do in the game.

Not being German or Argentinian helps. Also not being a cheating, diving, moaning shit of the lowest order.

Apologies for the tautology there.

Slim wrote:I don't think international success matters TBH, otherwise we're saying that if you're born in the wrong country(and don't have the right grandparents) then you can never be a true great no matter what you do in the game.

Then again, there have been lot of instances where one great player has carried his team on his back. If not to glory in actual tournament then at least take their team to the tournament and some decent performances there.

Gareth Bale will be carrying Wales for the next decade or so and if he continues to improve the way he has, will be up there soon for the top indivdual awards, but will never make it on the international stage. Not his fault though, just like George Weah, amazing footballer in his prime but was never going to be able to grace the big stage internationally.

International football matters historically in how players are rated vs others, in the sense that more people around the world notice how good you are, if you perform on the international stage & especially if you win. PR makes a difference on top of that though. Pele was rarely the best player at a tournament, but the legend which has followed allied to the pictures of him holding up the World Cup, gives the impression that he was 'the' best each time. All down to PR, & he's still at it.

PR can work without International success though. Beckham was rarely the best player even in a failling England team, but appears as if he was some kind of legend, purely down to getting his face on TV, compared to Scholes for instance, who most match going rags will remember as a miles better player. One day, Beckham will be universally accepted as an England & Utd 'great' because he is determined to promote it, so that people around the world who never even saw him, believe he was the dog's bollocks, because he must have been, in order to be on TV so much.

Notoriety could actually work historically for Suarez in that respect; 'he was as good as Messi or Ronaldo, but had this vicious streak' 'so he never got the credit'. I can imagine scouse grandads telling kids that & it being accepted.

If Messi helps win the World Cup, then the subsequent PR opportunities will elevate him to Godlike status in Argentina. If not, Maradona will always be rated higher & keep his face on TV, just to make sure.

Wonderwall wrote:Gareth Bale will be carrying Wales for the next decade or so and if he continues to improve the way he has, will be up there soon for the top indivdual awards, but will never make it on the international stage. Not his fault though, just like George Weah, amazing footballer in his prime but was never going to be able to grace the big stage internationally.

I was thinking Ibra.

Wonderwall wrote:Gareth Bale will be carrying Wales for the next decade or so and if he continues to improve the way he has, will be up there soon for the top indivdual awards, but will never make it on the international stage. Not his fault though, just like George Weah, amazing footballer in his prime but was never going to be able to grace the big stage internationally.

I think you just brought an elephant into the room

Slim wrote:

Wonderwall wrote:Gareth Bale will be carrying Wales for the next decade or so and if he continues to improve the way he has, will be up there soon for the top indivdual awards, but will never make it on the international stage. Not his fault though, just like George Weah, amazing footballer in his prime but was never going to be able to grace the big stage internationally.

I was thinking Ibra.

Ibrahimoviv? He has been to world cup few times.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Slim wrote:

Wonderwall wrote:Gareth Bale will be carrying Wales for the next decade or so and if he continues to improve the way he has, will be up there soon for the top indivdual awards, but will never make it on the international stage. Not his fault though, just like George Weah, amazing footballer in his prime but was never going to be able to grace the big stage internationally.

I was thinking Ibra.

Ibrahimoviv? He has been to world cup few times.

Yes but you'd have to admit his international career will mostly be a footnote unless he displays some magic there like he's done at club level.

Thought it would be interesting to bring this debate up now.
Imo to be considered a true great or 'the best player ever' as Messi has been dubbed by some, you have to do it at the World Cup. You have to perform on the biggest stage and there is no bigger stage than a world cup final. He was given the chance to really stake his claim and he didn't.

Last night he was ordinary, very ordinary and he was all tournament, despite ridiculously being given the award. His team needed him to step up and show what a good player he is but he was non-existent. If that was Rooney or Gerrard for England, they would have been absolutely slated on here.
Certainly a great, but not imo the best player ever.
Same goes to Tranny who's never done it on the biggest stage either.

Maradona would have won that game for Argentina, comfortably. Messi was playing for himself.

You just had to look at the team talk for extra time to see what was wrong - the whole team was bunched around their manager listening to him except Messi who was wandering off on his own.

I noticed that too. Absolute wanker's trick however you look at it.

Messi didn't need to listen to Sabella because he's told him what to say.

Hutch's Shoulder wrote:Messi didn't need to listen to Sabella because he's told him what to say.

Perhaps he just had awful gas and flatulanty rather than blatantly ignored the manager. Really! talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

( not you but the thread in general). None of us know what was going on.


Messi has carried this team into the final. Like Barcelona , Argentina would be average , plodding a lot better than England without him. They did well against Germany because they defended properly. Even then the Germans had a couple of chances. So too Argentina.

It was a very enjoyable game with very little room for the slightest mistake. Argentina were beaten by an excellent goal. A goal that stays in the memory... a la Mackenzie at Wembley .

zuricity wrote:

Hutch's Shoulder wrote:Messi didn't need to listen to Sabella because he's told him what to say.

Perhaps he just had awful gas and flatulanty rather than blatantly ignored the manager. Really! talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

( not you but the thread in general). None of us know what was going on.


Messi has carried this team into the final. Like Barcelona , Argentina would be average , plodding a lot better than England without him. They did well against Germany because they defended properly. Even then the Germans had a couple of chances. So too Argentina.

It was a very enjoyable game with very little room for the slightest mistake. Argentina were beaten by an excellent goal. A goal that stays in the memory... a la Mackenzie at Wembley .

What seems more likely? He was in it for himself, the whole team had grouped together, showing a sign of unity- he felt he was too important. Awful behavior whatever spin you will try and no doubt put on it.


He absolutely did not carry the team into the final. Players like Zabaleta, Mascherano, Demichellis and even the keeper did by keeping them strong at the back and tough to break down.
Messi had moments in the tournament and he wasn't awful but he certainly didn't perform anywhere near his best. It was his chance to stake a claim to be regarded as the best ever and in the semi final and then the final he was anonymous.

It was a Germany side with an unbelivably slow centre back in Hummels and Boateng who was given the run around by Danny fucking Welbeck at Old Trafford.
He played for himself and not the team.
It's a joke he was awarded player of the tournament.