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johnny crossan wrote:

Dameerto wrote:For someone of his physique he got bullied off the ball easier than Zinchenko (who is a slip of a lad and only 20 years old) - I'd say it was pretty appalling last night and we were very lucky it didn't cost us, fouls or not (thanks again Bravo).

It's difficult to understand how folk think he emerged with any credit from the game, most of the time he only had a lone second string teenage front runner to mark and he just failed consistently to do it.

Haven't seen anyone suggesting he deserves credit for his performance last night, just that he doesn't deserve the scathing criticism he's receiving. He's being made a scapegoat for the team's failings.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

johnny crossan wrote:

Dameerto wrote:For someone of his physique he got bullied off the ball easier than Zinchenko (who is a slip of a lad and only 20 years old) - I'd say it was pretty appalling last night and we were very lucky it didn't cost us, fouls or not (thanks again Bravo).

It's difficult to understand how folk think he emerged with any credit from the game, most of the time he only had a lone second string teenage front runner to mark and he just failed consistently to do it.

Haven't seen anyone suggesting he deserves credit for his performance last night, just that he doesn't deserve the scathing criticism he's receiving. He's being made a scapegoat for the team's failings.

Not by me. I know it's difficult to maintain fluidity with so many changes but we should have done a lot better, and he stood out. While I'm at it I also think Yaya was gash, Danilo poor, Bernardo worryingly ineffective and neither Tosin nor Zinchenko is currently anywhere near the quality we need. Left sided CB, LB and decent cover for Fern a huge priority. But what's new.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

johnny crossan wrote:

Dameerto wrote:For someone of his physique he got bullied off the ball easier than Zinchenko (who is a slip of a lad and only 20 years old) - I'd say it was pretty appalling last night and we were very lucky it didn't cost us, fouls or not (thanks again Bravo).

It's difficult to understand how folk think he emerged with any credit from the game, most of the time he only had a lone second string teenage front runner to mark and he just failed consistently to do it.

Haven't seen anyone suggesting he deserves credit for his performance last night, just that he doesn't deserve the scathing criticism he's receiving. He's being made a scapegoat for the team's failings.

JC has correctly pointed out other players failings, and hes spot on IMO.

Mangala was absoltely fuckign gash and there is no way on planet earth PeP will put him in the starting 11 ...ever. Not unless our other defenders are not able to hobble onto the pitch...and even then he still might go with 3 at the back rather than put this muppet in the back 4.

He deserves more scathing comments than any other player that played last night.

He was good and bad, however a game every 2 months is not going to help him is it. Sad as he looked the dogs man marking Costa.

I think some folk forgot just how poor he is whilst he was away in Spain. Last night was a stark reminder. He isn't strong enough, gets outpaced and his touch is as poor as the clumsy kid at school. He was a very strange buy given his obvious lack of positional sense and touch whilst in Portugal. He's a nice lad and I wish him well but we will struggle to offload him.

carl_feedthegoat wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

johnny crossan wrote:

Dameerto wrote:For someone of his physique he got bullied off the ball easier than Zinchenko (who is a slip of a lad and only 20 years old) - I'd say it was pretty appalling last night and we were very lucky it didn't cost us, fouls or not (thanks again Bravo).

It's difficult to understand how folk think he emerged with any credit from the game, most of the time he only had a lone second string teenage front runner to mark and he just failed consistently to do it.

Haven't seen anyone suggesting he deserves credit for his performance last night, just that he doesn't deserve the scathing criticism he's receiving. He's being made a scapegoat for the team's failings.

JC has correctly pointed out other players failings, and hes spot on IMO.

Mangala was absoltely fuckign gash and there is no way on planet earth PeP will put him in the starting 11 ...ever. Not unless our other defenders are not able to hobble onto the pitch...and even then he still might go with 3 at the back rather than put this muppet in the back 4.

He deserves more scathing comments than any other player that played last night.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating Pep starting him unless he needs to. I'd rather see Tosin get the nod ahead of him. And if he goes in January or Summer I won't give a fuck.

It reminds me of the shit Bravo got last season for the goal he conceded against Burnley, clearly fouled but that's ignored because people aren't willing to cut him any slack, that they would for others.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

carl_feedthegoat wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

johnny crossan wrote:

Dameerto wrote:For someone of his physique he got bullied off the ball easier than Zinchenko (who is a slip of a lad and only 20 years old) - I'd say it was pretty appalling last night and we were very lucky it didn't cost us, fouls or not (thanks again Bravo).

It's difficult to understand how folk think he emerged with any credit from the game, most of the time he only had a lone second string teenage front runner to mark and he just failed consistently to do it.

Haven't seen anyone suggesting he deserves credit for his performance last night, just that he doesn't deserve the scathing criticism he's receiving. He's being made a scapegoat for the team's failings.

JC has correctly pointed out other players failings, and hes spot on IMO.

Mangala was absoltely fuckign gash and there is no way on planet earth PeP will put him in the starting 11 ...ever. Not unless our other defenders are not able to hobble onto the pitch...and even then he still might go with 3 at the back rather than put this muppet in the back 4.

He deserves more scathing comments than any other player that played last night.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating Pep starting him unless he needs to. I'd rather see Tosin get the nod ahead of him. And if he goes in January or Summer I won't give a fuck.

It reminds me of the shit Bravo got last season for the goal he conceded against Burnley, clearly fouled but that's ignored because people aren't willing to cut him any slack, that they would for others.

Just for the record, Tosin had a horrific giveaway or two, just like the first time I saw him in that friendly in Germany. He looks good at times but I'm fairly sure Pep brought Stones on to impose more authority on the game, rather than Tosin being tired or injured.

I think centre back is atill a major issue unless Stones and Otamendi are going to fit for every game all season

3 mistakes (as I can recall) yesterday that almost cost us the game.

I've wanted to see him do well, but can we stop now with the support from those who seem to still back him for some reason. He's a big, strong, atlhetic defender who seems to be outmuscled too often and makes questionable decisions in tight situations.

He's the anti-Stones right now.

I wish him the best in his career, and was a backer of him for a bit, hope he improves here or elsewhere, but he's not good enough for our level and not even certain he's good enough for even mid table PL sides as he gets roasted by pacey and/or intelligent attackers with good movement who seem to cause him mares.

PrezIke wrote:3 mistakes (as I can recall) yesterday that almost cost us the game.

I've wanted to see him do well, but can we stop now with the support from those who seem to still back him for some reason. He's a big, strong, atlhetic defender who seems to be outmuscled too often and makes questionable decisions in tight situations.

He's the anti-Stones right now.

I wish him the best in his career, and was a backer of him for a bit, hope he improves here or elsewhere, but he's not good enough for our level and not even certain he's good enough for even mid table PL sides as he gets roasted by pacey and/or intelligent attackers with good movement who seem to cause him mares.

I'll ship him straight to Houston at sparring JJ Watt on speed recovery...

I've called him the French 'Titus Bramble' for years. He has all the attribute, ie big, strong and quick over a distance, but he drops bollocks in every game.
Was unfair on Tosin to put them up as a pair. Tosin needs to be alongside someone who's confident in his game. Mangala is not!

Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

One the strengths of Pep's tactics is the centre backs, together with the holding midfielder, intercepting as high in midfield as a massed defence will allow, winning the ball and creating the quick incisive break. To do that they need to have good anticipation, tackling and passing abilities. Last night Yaya alone of the three had the necessary passing skills but the rest of those qualities were largely absent.

So Mangala's passivity, lack of confidence, positional sense and hence switchover interceptions together with his poor passing were indeed some of the reasons we didn't score. His athletic strengths are simply outweighed by his weaknesses - which have showed no discernible improvement. Sorry if that is very negative but he's been here a long time now and just hasn't cut it.

johnny crossan wrote:

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

One the strengths of Pep's tactics is the centre backs, together with the holding midfielder, intercepting as high in midfield as a massed defence will allow, winning the ball and creating the quick incisive break. To do that they need to have good anticipation, tackling and passing abilities. Last night Yaya alone of the three had the necessary passing skills but the rest of those qualities were largely absent.

So Mangala's passivity, lack of confidence, positional sense and hence switchover interceptions together with his poor passing were indeed some of the reasons we didn't score. His athletic strengths are simply outweighed by his weaknesses - which have showed no discernible improvement. Sorry if that is very negative but he's been here a long time now and just hasn't cut it.

That's a fair-minded, objective assessment JC.

Up to now, I'd always hoped there was a defender in there, just waiting to impressively spring forth, especially if given a 'run' in the side.

However, the qualities he may, or not, possess are not what are vital to ourselves and our style of play; something that was re-inforced the other night, irrespective of all other team considerations which were extant.

On that basis, I've just got to now hold up my hands and admit I've been misguided all this time and, in the best interest of both ourselves and the player, we should just cut our losses and move him on, if this is at all possible.

Overall, it just seems to have been a sad and inordinately wasteful cameo in our overall footballing progression.

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

He's certainly part of the reason.
He's a bad fit for our style of play.
His strengths don't strengthen our game-plan.
His weaknesses leave our game-plan exposed and vulnerable.

The reason we didn't score can't fall solely on his shoulders, I agree, but the reason they nearly did falls largely on his shoulders.

He's lucky Bravo is so good.!!!!

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

He's certainly part of the reason.
He's a bad fit for our style of play.
His strengths don't strengthen our game-plan.
His weaknesses leave our game-plan exposed and vulnerable.

The reason we didn't score can't fall solely on his shoulders, I agree, but the reason they nearly did falls largely on his shoulders.

He's lucky Bravo is so good.!!!!

If you were being ultra cynical, you could make the tongue in cheek comment that Wolves were so bad that they made Bravo look good.

Don't know where that would leave Mangala though.

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

got where You're coming from here, She, and reckon I should present myself in sackcloth and ashes...

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

He's certainly part of the reason.
He's a bad fit for our style of play.
His strengths don't strengthen our game-plan.
His weaknesses leave our game-plan exposed and vulnerable.

The reason we didn't score can't fall solely on his shoulders, I agree, but the reason they nearly did falls largely on his shoulders.

He's lucky Bravo is so good.!!!!

If you were being ultra cynical, you could make the tongue in cheek comment that Wolves were so bad that they made Bravo look good.

Don't know where that would leave Mangala though.

The logical progression would be that Mangala was so terrible he made Wolves look good, who were so bad they made Bravo look good..
I think that's stretching it a bit and unfair on all concerned.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

He's certainly part of the reason.
He's a bad fit for our style of play.
His strengths don't strengthen our game-plan.
His weaknesses leave our game-plan exposed and vulnerable.

The reason we didn't score can't fall solely on his shoulders, I agree, but the reason they nearly did falls largely on his shoulders.

He's lucky Bravo is so good.!!!!

If you were being ultra cynical, you could make the tongue in cheek comment that Wolves were so bad that they made Bravo look good.

Don't know where that would leave Mangala though.

The logical progression would be that Mangala was so terrible he made Wolves look good, who were so bad they made Bravo look good..
I think that's stretching it a bit and unfair on all concerned.

the latter is certainly the overstretched bit,imo. and You know it, mate
once in a long while we must say Bravo earned entirelly all the beans, and the cake too.

the lesser is as logical as it gets, imho.

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

Actually, it is somewhat of his "fault" that we aren't scoring.

Compare him to Stones or Otamendi and they are both better with the ball and spotting a long range pass.

It's actually a bit odd, because as I recall we signed Mangala as a replacement for Lescott under Pellegrini, very much in part due to the need for a player who is better with the ball than Jolen was, despite the stats showing Lescott with a high pass completion percentage...it was likely because he made very simple passes that slowed down our attack against a well organised defence (also given Hart's poor, slow distribution), which pretty much became the way to stop us until Pep arrived trying to figure out ways to unlock this approach that was so effective when partnered with pacey counter attacking wingers/forwards.

Malgala's better than Lescott with the ball, but seems to lack the confidence and vision to make good decisions or help us start the attack with the kind of verve that Pep requires and is clearly part of why we are so potent (along with Ederson's addition and changes at full/wing back).

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Poor old Mangler, yep I agree he's the reason we couldn't score against Wolves. Its all his fault. Execute him.

He's certainly part of the reason.
He's a bad fit for our style of play.
His strengths don't strengthen our game-plan.
His weaknesses leave our game-plan exposed and vulnerable.

The reason we didn't score can't fall solely on his shoulders, I agree, but the reason they nearly did falls largely on his shoulders.

He's lucky Bravo is so good.!!!!

If you were being ultra cynical, you could make the tongue in cheek comment that Wolves were so bad that they made Bravo look good.

Don't know where that would leave Mangala though.

The logical progression would be that Mangala was so terrible he made Wolves look good, who were so bad they made Bravo look good..
I think that's stretching it a bit and unfair on all concerned.

On 3 occasions he did make Wolves look good, and those are the times I am thinking of. As mentioned in my last post, it's also about starting our attack. To be fair, these players have not played so much together, or consistently as starters so that is going to contribute as well.

I don't think otherwise Mangala was terrible, but the mistakes were glaring and easily could have led to 2 or 3 goals against us had Bravo or Tosin not saved us, or if the opposition was of a higher quality, or at least more clinical in terms of their finishing.