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The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:18 pm
by Wonderwall
Great Article from the BBC

Price of Football 2014: Why fans flock to Borussia Dortmund
By Ben Smith, Dortmund
BBC Sport


Borussia Dortmund's slogan "echte liebe" - or "true love" - says it all. The final whistle goes at the majestic Westfalenstadion. Dortmund have lost at home.
And yet none of the players disappear down the tunnel. None of the fans leave the ground. Defiant, determined, the 25,000 fans who religiously flock to the mythical south stand continue to serenade their team.

Manager Jurgen Klopp joins his players on the edge of the penalty area, where they stand for five minutes in awe, gazing up at one of European football's great sights, the "Gelbe Wand" (Yellow Wall), a sea of luminous shirts, scarves and flags. Towers of smoke rise from pockets of fans and waves of noise cascades down the steep terrace and onto the players.

This love is unconditional.

Moments such as this are why Dortmund are one of the last great romantic clubs. The tickets - and beer - are cheap, the atmosphere is raw and seductive and fans, not finance, come first.

When Dortmund reached the 2013 Champions League final, the club received 502,567 applications for 24,042 tickets. The entire city has a population of 580,956. True love, indeed.

Football is all encompassing here, it reaches ever facet of life. One fan even leaves the club shop having just bought a Borussia Dortmund-branded lawn mower. The chance to experience this love affair is attracting more than 1,000 fans from England to every home match.

Image
The scene in the Westfalenstadion after Dortmund's defeat by Hamburg

It is a scarcely believable figure, but walk around the stadium and British accents are audible among the 80,000 at Signal Iduna Park. "We jump on the Channel Tunnel train," says Matthew Gerrard, from Kent.

"We make a weekend of it. With tickets, accommodation, transport, this trip will cost £65. When you think it cost me £51 to see the Arsenal game last season, you can see the benefits."

Another group soaking up the beer and bratwurst outside the stadium are wearing Stoke shirts, while there are also fans from Aston Villa, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Port Vale. When you discover that the majority of Dortmund's 55,000 season-ticket holders have paid an average of £9 to see this match, this influx begins to make perfect sense.

Jack, a Chelsea fan, is here with two of his friends from London.
"Prices are too high in England," he says. "But here, everything is cheap. It's a better experience for the fan and the atmosphere is incredible."
Dortmund are increasingly aware of the English invasion. The club has even begun to conduct stadium tours in English. "It's amazing," says marketing director Carsten Cramer. "It's always nice when English fans tell me that including the cost of a flight, two beers and a ticket, they do not pay more than a match in England.

"Why are tickets cheap? Football is part of people's lives and we want to open the doors for all of society. We need the people, they spend their hearts, their emotions with us. They are the club's most important asset."

It is a phrase that many clubs use, but two stories demonstrate why it is, perhaps, far more than words here in Dortmund. In recent months, the club's caterers asked them to increase beer prices for the first time in three years. But Dortmund said no.

"What is the economic sense for the club to increase the price by 10 cents?" Cramer added. "For the overall economic success of the club it is not important to increase the price of a litre of a beer. It is still money, but not a lot to the club. But it does affect our fans, if they are spending their money match after match."

The Gelbe Wand/The Yellow Wall
Bayern Munich and Germany midfielder Bastian Schweinsteiger was recently asked whether he feared Dortmund's players or their manager, more. He responded by saying: "It is the Yellow Wall that scares me the most." The sudtribune, or south stand, has the capacity to assault the senses with its raw passion and noise. More than 25,000 people stand on the terrace during Bundesliga games. For European games, safe standing rails are replaced by seats.

Puma, the club's shirt manufacturer, also urged them to increase the price of the kit after three seasons at the same figure. Dortmund, once again, said no.

"We try to be as fair as possible. It is easier to ask sponsors for cash than the fans," Cramer says.

Dortmund plan to introduce free wifi to all fans inside the stadium from January. Other clubs are doing the same, but not quite in the way that Dortmund are.

While the club want to encourage fans to engage with them online, order food and send tweets, once the match starts, they want their fans to put their phones down, use their hands to clap, their eyes to watch and the voices to sing.

And to ensure that remains the case, the club are discussing plans to dip the wifi signal once the match begins. Supporting the team is the be all and end all.

Image
Borussia Dortmund have the highest average attendance in the world

It is why Dortmund do not sell drinks in their corporate boxes during the game. It is why the stadium announcer demands fans return to their seats in time for the start of the second half. The club could allow fans to spend more money buying food and drink. But not at Dortmund.

"We are a football club," Cramer adds. "If the football doesn't run properly, the rest of the business would not work. The business is part of a train, but not the engine."

Cramer arrives in the room having spent much of the past 15 minutes on the phone to a fan with a complaint - yes, they do exist.

"It is important that the fans know that their concerns are being listened to, that as a club we have a feeling for what they want," he says.

"Our CEO is in a deep conversation with the fans, we have five guys who just work for our supporters. Our fans know we care about what they think."

Dortmund fan Marc Quambusch, from Kein Zwanni (Not Twenty), a supporter campaign to keep tickets cheap, admits he is proud of what Dortmund has become, having grown up looking to England as the home of football's soul.

Dortmund stats - the club:

Season ticket holders:
55,000

Waiting list for season ticket:
30,000

Stadium capacity:
80,645

Average home attendance:
80,291 (highest in the world)

Number of fans attending in 2013-14 season:
1.855 million

"When I was young, we all watched English football, the Kop and said 'yes, that is what football is all about'," he says.

"Now, when we go to English football, the stadiums are quiet and we say that it is actually quite boring. If you price people out, you change the atmosphere. If you price people out, it isn't the people's game anymore."

Dortmund's fervent atmosphere is the envy of Europe but it is not there by accident.

The club keeps prices low precisely to ensure all areas of society are represented in the crowd. There is no such thing as the 'prawn sandwich brigade' in these parts.

"Prices are also going up here and have gone up in recent seasons. But Dortmund is one of the homes of fan culture now, every type of person in this city can afford to go to the stadium," Quambusch adds.

"Not just the old people or the rich. That isn't the case in England."

It is important to remember this is a club run by the fans, for the fans. The Bundesliga's "50% plus one" rule requires clubs to be owned by their members. All but three of the 36 Bundesliga clubs are owned or controlled by their members, with Wolfsburg, Bayer Leverkeusen and Hoffenheim the exceptions.

It is a model that is the envy of many in Europe, especially when it is so successful, as Dortmund have been since 2010, winning two Bundesligas and reaching the Champions League final.

"You have to find your own way," Cramer says. "I am not that arrogant to think that our way might be the right way for all clubs.
"This way fits to the core values of our club. We are a very, very down to earth club.
"If you know what your club stands for, it helps you know how to act. But I could put the figures to other clubs and say there you go. It is the Dortmund way, and for us, it is most certainly the right way."

The Dortmund model may not, though, be as attractive for those clubs determined to make money above all else. The amount of money Arsenal generate on match days dwarfs those of the German club, despite having 20,000 less seats.

"This is impressive," Cramer added. "But if we were to ask for prices like this, we would lose the people. And the people are one of the most important assets for our club."

English fans will continue to flock to this unglamorous corner of Germany. It is an intoxicating experience, it is cheap and the football is among the best in Europe. What is not to like? Perhaps it is that Germany reminds English football fans of something they think the game in this country has forgotten.

Modern football may be the land of the sporting superstar, but in Germany the fan is king.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:49 pm
by nottsblue
Football how it used to be over here

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:40 pm
by Beefymcfc
nottsblue wrote:Football how it used to be over here

Germans don't like change and they certainly wouldn't accept what has happened to the PL. You'd see boycotts and protests from supporters like we'd never see and they wouldn't allow clubs and the likes of Sky walk all over them.

With all the changes, I think the English supporter has taken the hit, whether it was because of embarrassment of the hooligan years and the need to conform, we've allowed the powers that be, either official or media led, to have us all over. Until the fans start voting with their feet, or is it seat, we'll always be seen as scum (probably a bit over the top) and just a customer. We, as a club, are not too bad but when the main emphasis is on the club creating a 'Matchday Experience', then you know that the true love of the sport of football is not paramount to what we go to the game for.

I can't talk for anybody else but I go for the game of football and to see the supporters, new and old, and if theirs a few pints involved, then all the better.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:34 pm
by Hazy2
Dead rubber when I went with City, however I had an amazing time and would love to see is treating ourselves to this indulgence every home game, for those on here who were at Villa, it was an amazing atmosphere and somehow it has to be done at home.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:49 am
by lets all have a disco
Two things jump out here.

The tickets - and beer - are cheap, the atmosphere is raw and seductive and fans, not finance, come first.

"We make a weekend of it. With tickets, accommodation, transport, this trip will cost £65. When you think it cost me £51 to see the Arsenal game last season, you can see the benefits."


THIS /\/\/\/\/\ is how it should be,give us OUR game back you fucking snakes at the top.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:24 am
by Goaters 103
The yellow wall is an awesome sight and that stadium is fantastic.

Playing devils advocate a little, if Dortmund have figured out the secret to football life how come they almost went bankrupt 9 years ago, and long after they won the Champs Lge and had the fabulous stadium? Apparently they had to be bailed out by the abhorrent set of fuckers that is Bayern Munich - maybe that's why they ritually seem to let all their best players go to Bayern?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4274377.stm

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3275/bun ... bankruptcy

The fan experience is superb, having sampled it myself, but the Bundesliga is effectively the "only 1 team can win it" Liga and has been for a few years now. That for me, doesn't make the ideal model for sustained success either.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:59 am
by bayblue
I really like the point about the economics and it makes so much sense for us. Many years ago most of a clubs revenue was from match day. These days it's becoming a much smaller component and with every success on the pitch it will become less and less so.
I'm proud of City for not totally ripping fans off like other clubs but recent price rises are putting off the next generation of fans.

We in theory have one of the best opportunities to do a Dortmund and make our (bigger) stadium full and buzzing each week. This could make us a really intimidating place to come to. Twenty quid off match day prices is a lot of money but dwarfed by the commercial and overseas income that would follow if we have a sustained run of success playing great football and also ensure the next generation of young people are locked in as match going fans.

Come on Soriano, put the local fans first and you will reap the benefits overall.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:56 am
by I Just Blue Myself
The article focuses too much on Dortmund, while most of the perks apply to Bundesliga overall. Funnily enough, Dortmund has the most expensive 'cheapest season tickets' in the Bundesliga (excluding Paderborn whose are just absurdly priced for a first-time promoted team). Bayern has the second-cheapest.

Cheapest Season tickets:

Barcelona - £103
Bayern - £109
Dortmund - £159
Real Madrid - £174
Man City - £299
Man Utd - £532

Arsenal - £1,015

Their slogan "echte liebe" is also incredibly cringeworthy. Up there with "mes que un club" and "mia san mia" for obnoxious, romanticised, self-fellating marketing drivel. All around appalling stuff.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:35 am
by Ted Hughes
We could create that, long term. But it would need a bit of thinking outside the box & it would also require the club to deliberately not maximise potential revenue.

Neither thing ever happens in football over here.

For a start, we have 12k new seats coming onboard over the next few seasons (assuming the North Stand end is definitely being enlarged, which it appears to be thecase as the new campus model in the training complex shows the ground with both ends done).

'Audition' fans for 1000 free season tickets. We are all being watched, & filmed all the time. Those who consistently turn up & can be seen supporting the team (AND STAYING TO APPLAUD THE TEAM OFF) offer them a seat in a new singing section NOWHERE NEAR THE AWAY FANS for fuck all. Then offer them renewals for £100 the following season, & get another 1000 seats & offer them for £100 to the next batch of fans who are seen to give the best support.

The condition for staying at that price, is you give the team full on support, every home game, for 90 mins & you are on camera doing it. Then offer another 1000 either side for £200 on the same deal.

A few thousand fans making the same noise Poznan did, & we have an atmosphere. Eventually, a whole end would be like that & even if nobody paid more than £250 per season to be in there, our matchday takings would still be higher than they are now, because of the extra seats at the other end.

Soon, people would want to come to the ground not just to watch Aguero, but because it's fucking great to be there. Then you enlarge both sides & keep the prices down. 80k watching City in the best atmosphere in the league.

It could all be done, but it's not the way suits normally operate. More likely we will end up with 80k quiet, arms folded, baldies & clueless tourists 20 years from now, paying 1500 quid each.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:24 pm
by Hazy2
Ted Hughes wrote:We could create that, long term. But it would need a bit of thinking outside the box & it would also require the club to deliberately not maximise potential revenue.

Neither thing ever happens in football over here.

For a start, we have 12k new seats coming onboard over the next few seasons (assuming the North Stand end is definitely being enlarged, which it appears to be thecase as the new campus model in the training complex shows the ground with both ends done).

'Audition' fans for 1000 free season tickets. We are all being watched, & filmed all the time. Those who consistently turn up & can be seen supporting the team (AND STAYING TO APPLAUD THE TEAM OFF) offer them a seat in a new singing section NOWHERE NEAR THE AWAY FANS for fuck all. Then offer them renewals for £100 the following season, & get another 1000 seats & offer them for £100 to the next batch of fans who are seen to give the best support.

The condition for staying at that price, is you give the team full on support, every home game, for 90 mins & you are on camera doing it. Then offer another 1000 either side for £200 on the same deal.

A few thousand fans making the same noise Poznan did, & we have an atmosphere. Eventually, a whole end would be like that & even if nobody paid more than £250 per season to be in there, our matchday takings would still be higher than they are now, because of the extra seats at the other end.

Soon, people would want to come to the ground not just to watch Aguero, but because it's fucking great to be there. Then you enlarge both sides & keep the prices down. 80k watching City in the best atmosphere in the league.

It could all be done, but it's not the way suits normally operate. More likely we will end up with 80k quiet, arms folded, baldies & clueless tourists 20 years from now, paying 1500 quid each.


Lots of great points Ted. We have the best fans, Cockney cunts coming it should be rocking if only to drown out the BS they will no doubt spout !

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:35 pm
by Dameerto
I mentioned before - we could sort out sponsors for certain stands, maybe even just for one home match at a time (sorted out in advance so that the whole season was covered) and those sponsors subsidise tickets prices within their stand - end result is the club doesn't lose revenue and the fans get cheaper tickets. Maybe we could have season ticket sponsors too, and cup match ticket sponsors.
(I could see one or two players sponsoring a stand for a match in theory).

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:50 pm
by Camebro
I've just went and booked a long weekend in dortmund for dortmund v mainz. £165 all in for ferry, ticket and hostel. Can't wait, this yellow wall better be all it's cracked up to be.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:30 pm
by Ted Hughes
When you see close ups of the Dortmund crowd, it's just a bunch of mostly harmless, average, Germans farting about enjoying themselves. Nothing we can't recreate if we get the most enthusiastic fans into one area (& that doesn't include all the fucking morons who want to stand there waving their arms Liam Gallagher style at fat Geordies, Cockneys etc. They can stay in the South Stand where they are.)

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:59 pm
by DoomMerchant
Baldies AND clueless tourists?

Now yr just being mean.

Cheers

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:41 pm
by bayblue
Ted Hughes wrote:We could create that, long term. But it would need a bit of thinking outside the box & it would also require the club to deliberately not maximise potential revenue.

Neither thing ever happens in football over here.

For a start, we have 12k new seats coming onboard over the next few seasons (assuming the North Stand end is definitely being enlarged, which it appears to be thecase as the new campus model in the training complex shows the ground with both ends done).

'Audition' fans for 1000 free season tickets. We are all being watched, & filmed all the time. Those who consistently turn up & can be seen supporting the team (AND STAYING TO APPLAUD THE TEAM OFF) offer them a seat in a new singing section NOWHERE NEAR THE AWAY FANS for fuck all. Then offer them renewals for £100 the following season, & get another 1000 seats & offer them for £100 to the next batch of fans who are seen to give the best support.

The condition for staying at that price, is you give the team full on support, every home game, for 90 mins & you are on camera doing it. Then offer another 1000 either side for £200 on the same deal.

A few thousand fans making the same noise Poznan did, & we have an atmosphere. Eventually, a whole end would be like that & even if nobody paid more than £250 per season to be in there, our matchday takings would still be higher than they are now, because of the extra seats at the other end.

Soon, people would want to come to the ground not just to watch Aguero, but because it's fucking great to be there. Then you enlarge both sides & keep the prices down. 80k watching City in the best atmosphere in the league.

It could all be done, but it's not the way suits normally operate. More likely we will end up with 80k quiet, arms folded, baldies & clueless tourists 20 years from now, paying 1500 quid each.


I like the thinking outside the box idea. As to whether the strategy wouldn't maximise revenue then I'm not so sure. Match day revenue is dwarfed by other income and would become more so the more success we have. Clearly the strategy wouldn't maximise match day revenue but not necessarily the same as total revenue if commercial income rises on the back of success.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:32 pm
by LookMumImOnMCF.net
It's a totally different footballing culture. You couldn't recreate it here, nor should you look to. Take the best parts from it yes, but be unique.

It's an enviable set up though, definitely.

Ted Hughes wrote:'Audition' fans for 1000 free season tickets. We are all being watched, & filmed all the time. Those who consistently turn up & can be seen supporting the team (AND STAYING TO APPLAUD THE TEAM OFF) offer them a seat in a new singing section NOWHERE NEAR THE AWAY FANS for fuck all. Then offer them renewals for £100 the following season, & get another 1000 seats & offer them for £100 to the next batch of fans who are seen to give the best support.

Videoing and bribing your fans to support the team? This is one of the saddest things I've ever read on here and the polar opposite of the Dortmund model.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:59 pm
by dazby
How do you create atmosphere? Cheap beer. Simple.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:22 am
by Ted Hughes
LookMumImOnMCF.net wrote:It's a totally different footballing culture. You couldn't recreate it here, nor should you look to. Take the best parts from it yes, but be unique.

It's an enviable set up though, definitely.

Ted Hughes wrote:'Audition' fans for 1000 free season tickets. We are all being watched, & filmed all the time. Those who consistently turn up & can be seen supporting the team (AND STAYING TO APPLAUD THE TEAM OFF) offer them a seat in a new singing section NOWHERE NEAR THE AWAY FANS for fuck all. Then offer them renewals for £100 the following season, & get another 1000 seats & offer them for £100 to the next batch of fans who are seen to give the best support.

Videoing and bribing your fans to support the team? This is one of the saddest things I've ever read on here and the polar opposite of the Dortmund model.



Hate to break it to you, but they've been videoing you since Maine Rd. And no doubt you have been to loads of games where ticket prices have been reduced in order to get you to attend.

So basically, you don't have a point, at all.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:16 am
by Piccsnumberoneblue
I went to Dortmund. It was ok but the yellow wall wasn't all that.

Re: The Yellow Wall (Dortmund Article)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:40 am
by Hazy2
Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:I went to Dortmund. It was ok but the yellow wall wasn't all that.


from arriving at the Stadium, it was like an old night at Maine Road Noise smell and zillions of fans hanging around. The game was dead as we were out, that said 77,00 were in give me that anyday than the ,morgue we have most of the time.