bravo

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Re: bravo

Postby Im_Spartacus » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:40 pm

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:With regard to the goal we conceded yesterday, Bravo came out to try to catch the ball and getting entangled with Stones didn't help him in his endeavours.

If Joe had been in goal, he might have elected to punch instead and, personally, I think he probably would have punched it if he had decided to come off his line.

In such circumstances, punching may, or may not, have relieved the pressure in this one instance but, for myself, although Bravo dropped a clanger, I feel more optimistic that he actually tried to catch it and a bit more work on the training pitch would, to some extent, eradicate potential collisions with his defenders in the future.

Bruce Grobbelaar, in his Liverpool heyday, used to consistently come quite a distance from his goal-line to catch crosses and, inevitably, he used to drop some of them from time to time.

I remember the great Brian Clough saying about him that, because he played in such a positive (and almost daredevil) fashion and, by doing this, snuffed out opposition aerial attacks, he was "allowed" to drop a clanger or two and the football club and fans should not criticise him unfairly over this.

If, in spite of his smaller stature, Bravo tries to dominate his goal area by catching, rather than punching, I think he should be applauded - always assuming that that his his preferred style .

However, it's very early days and only time will tell if he turns out to be a success or a failure with us.


Fair points, but the question for me on that incident is not whether to catch or punch, but whether he even needed to get involved. It seems a bit of a rash run off his line for a ball that stones looked to have dealt with.

Can easily be put down to unfamiliarity or lack of trust in the defence, but I reckon the defenders will be wondering what he's gonna do next, and if it carries on nobody will trust anyone and it will turn into a clusterfuck if we go down that road. It needs to be fixed quick, and I'm sure it will be.
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Re: bravo

Postby Bianchi on Ice » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:54 pm

Good point raised about Grobbelaar. I remember the criticism directed at him because he had a few clangers early on, and after Clemences relative consistency it was a shock to see a liverpool player make that many howlers but he settled in and they didnt miss clemence. It takes time for a keeper to gain understanding with the defence, and id hope the back four isnt chopped and changed too much in order for that understanding to have a clear path.
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Re: bravo

Postby Mikhail Chigorin » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:11 pm

Bianchi on Ice wrote:Good point raised about Grobbelaar. I remember the criticism directed at him because he had a few clangers early on, and after Clemences relative consistency it was a shock to see a liverpool player make that many howlers but he settled in and they didnt miss clemence. It takes time for a keeper to gain understanding with the defence, and id hope the back four isnt chopped and changed too much in order for that understanding to have a clear path.


If we play a back four, it looks as though Pep will regularly rotate the full backs but it may be that Stones and Otamendi will be kept together on a consistent basis.

However, we can't always rely on the fact that he will always play that defensive formation. Being the master tactician he is, he'll probably change things around at will, to suit the different opposition we're up against in different games.

I just hope this doesn't make it more difficult for Bravo to settle in.
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Re: bravo

Postby johnny crossan » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:26 am

Im_Spartacus wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:
Im_Spartacus wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:
johnny crossan wrote:There is a rush to judgement about this lad on here which is just silly. Bravo is a top keeper, he was unlucky to get clattered by Stones today to gift them the goal. Aside from a couple of other anxious moments he's added a really important dimension to our build up play which we've never seen the like of before.

He's a goalkeeper, they're subjected to harsher criticism from fans than any other player on the pitch, it has always been thus.

I don't think there have been any judgements, he made several big mistakes against a side who worked out that he seemed to have lost the plot on about 43 minutes in, and pressed to make it worse.
Nobody's calling him out as shit, but let's not 'polish a turd' though, it was a poor performance by any standards. But equally those who are calling him out on a poor performance are mostly understanding of the fact that he needs to play more with the defence and Fernandinho to get a proper understanding of each others' expectations if we are going to try and play this type of possession based football out from the back.
What I will say in his favour, is that before the 43rd minute, he was absolutely instrumental in pulling 3 united forwards out of play for a large part of the first half, which negated their pressing (although I think they pressed a little too half heartedly early on) and allowed us to pass the ball around their midfield with impunity - thats what I hope we see more of.

I never said there was any judgements, I was just making a general observation.

Crossan did tho......i think your point is spot on

If not a rush to judgement this sounds to me like at least a brisk stroll friend.
Im_Spartacus wrote:He made some good contributions to our possession in the first half, but it's one of the shakiest debuts I've seen...............ever..... considering what he was seemingly brought in for.
The saving grace was that he didn't actually have any saves to make from what I recall, but he has got to get to grips with the pace sharpish as every manager will be putting him under pressure now.
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Re: bravo

Postby Tokyo Blue » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:52 am

I'm going to give him more than one game before I decide whether he is Bert Trautmann or Martyn Margetson (seeing as this place allows nothing in betweeen).

I think it was Mase who pointed out that steve mcminmum's first game was excellent.
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Re: bravo

Postby johnny crossan » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:57 am

Tokyo Blue wrote:I'm going to give him more than one game before I decide whether he is Bert Trautmann or Martyn Margetson (seeing as this place allows nothing in betweeen).

I think it was Mase who pointed out that steve mcminmum's first game was excellent.

'sick' was the word he used if I recall correctly ;)
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Re: bravo

Postby Im_Spartacus » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:52 pm

johnny crossan wrote:
Im_Spartacus wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:
Im_Spartacus wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:He's a goalkeeper, they're subjected to harsher criticism from fans than any other player on the pitch, it has always been thus.

I don't think there have been any judgements, he made several big mistakes against a side who worked out that he seemed to have lost the plot on about 43 minutes in, and pressed to make it worse.
Nobody's calling him out as shit, but let's not 'polish a turd' though, it was a poor performance by any standards. But equally those who are calling him out on a poor performance are mostly understanding of the fact that he needs to play more with the defence and Fernandinho to get a proper understanding of each others' expectations if we are going to try and play this type of possession based football out from the back.
What I will say in his favour, is that before the 43rd minute, he was absolutely instrumental in pulling 3 united forwards out of play for a large part of the first half, which negated their pressing (although I think they pressed a little too half heartedly early on) and allowed us to pass the ball around their midfield with impunity - thats what I hope we see more of.

I never said there was any judgements, I was just making a general observation.

Crossan did tho......i think your point is spot on

If not a rush to judgement this sounds to me like at least a brisk stroll friend.
Im_Spartacus wrote:He made some good contributions to our possession in the first half, but it's one of the shakiest debuts I've seen...............ever..... considering what he was seemingly brought in for.
The saving grace was that he didn't actually have any saves to make from what I recall, but he has got to get to grips with the pace sharpish as every manager will be putting him under pressure now.


So out of that we have two 'judgements'
1: He made some good contributions but it was a shaky debut
2: He has to get to grips with the pace of the game

Now perhaps my view of a judgement and yours are different, but I've simply stated two undisputable facts from his performance. A judgement in my books is where we see one game, shit ourselves and invariably Carl states that we need to sell the cunt. Whilst I accept that's typically the way of the Manchester City signing of the last 40 years, I think we all saw that this situation is a little bit different.

Nobody has made a judgement on him as a player, nobody has written him off, but plenty have quite rightly stated that he had a very fucking dodgy debut from a goalkeeping perspective. That's simply a fact of the 90 minutes we all saw not a judgement of him as a player.
Last edited by Im_Spartacus on Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bravo

Postby Dub City » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:53 pm

johnny crossan wrote:
Tokyo Blue wrote:I'm going to give him more than one game before I decide whether he is Bert Trautmann or Martyn Margetson (seeing as this place allows nothing in betweeen).

I think it was Mase who pointed out that steve mcminmum's first game was excellent.

'sick' was the word he used if I recall correctly ;)


I certainly felt sick watching some of the ones that came after his debut
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Re: bravo

Postby johnny crossan » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:28 pm

this is an extract from a very interesting link in another thread, which I think is worth pasting here and goes to the heart of the debate as to whether Bravo is an upgrade if Hart had been perservered with and coached as a sweeper keeper. My view is it would have been a gamble and Pep didn't have the time or the cover to go down that route. There may well be a trade off in traditional keeper skills but Bravo is going to offer more important tactical opportunities.

http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/09/11/ ... -trafford/

City’s stable build-up & use of Bravo


One of the main reasons for City’s dominance was down to their ability to build-up in a stable fashion from deep areas. They demonstrated strong collective press resistance and their use of Bravo was a major factor behind this.

In deep build-up situations the use of Bravo as an additional defender allowed them to create an instant free man against United’s man-orientations. By doing this they were able to draw United’s forwards into pressing him in turn creating a free man in the defence or midfield line. This often allowed them to escape the first line of United’s pressing but there was a deeper and more subtle aspect that allowed them to do this.
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When United’s forwards left their direct opponent to press Bravo they would often do so from an angle that allowed them to cover passes into said opponent whilst creating access to Bravo. In reaction to this City used blind side movement to escape the cover shadow of United’s presser in front. With this movement they could create passing options from situations where United appeared to have good access.

Furthermore this blind side movement was effective due to the positioning of the players ahead. Knowing that they were in control of the positioning of United’s midfield pair, Silva and De Bruyne used their positioning well to manipulate United’s pressing structure.

When they were able to use their blind side movement to create passing options in the first line Silva and De Bruyne would occupy higher positions which removed Pogba and Fellaini’s capacity to support the press. With weak support from behind United’s forwards were easily taken out of the game and City enjoyed large space behind United’s front line.
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citys-blind-side-movement
Bravo as a free man and Fernandinho’s blind side movement.

However when United appeared to have good coverage of the passing options in the first two lines Silva would often drop and the reaction of Fellaini would have big implications for the actions of City’s ball carrier.

If Silva was followed into deep positions City could play longer towards the forwards to target a defence exposed without the support of the midfield line. This would give the forwards the chance to attack the back line directly if they could control the destiny of the second balls.

Alternately if he was not followed Silva would be able to act as a free man and allow City to break past United’s pressing structure.

Another area of their build-up that Bravo had a strong influence on was in connecting their possession from wide areas back into the centre. When City appeared to be trapped on the wings without viable passing options they used Bravo as a route to switch the ball back to the opposite half space.

In order to maintain coverage of the nearby passing options; United in particular the front two, had to shift over to the ball. In these situations City used Bravo to switch the ball to a centre back in the opposite half space. Due to the long distances they had to make up United could not create access against these half space switches and the recipient could drive forwards aggressively into midfield.

This would have a similar effect as the use of Bravo. United’s midfielders were put in situations where they were required to create access to the ball in front of them but also maintain coverage of their direct opponents behind them. At times they did neither and in moving forwards to press they only opened large spaces for their direct opponent to receive passes behind them.

City’s rotating back 3

In order to make these switches and connect their possession from wide areas back into the half spaces, Fernandinho and the centre backs demonstrated strong staggering. In these situations where the ball was seemingly trapped on the flanks Fernandinho often moved higher into midfield. This was done to drag Rooney forwards with him and reduce United’s presence in the front line which would in turn give the centre backs more time and space on the ball.

However this movement was at times done by the centre backs. In some situations the ball-near centre back would pass out to the full back and move forwards, if Ibrahimovic chose to follow then the pass back into Bravo was open. If he did not follow then City would be able to connect their play back into the centre through the ball-near centre back.
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bravo-connecting-wide-possession

These simple movements were done with the intentions of maximising the potential passing options for each receiver which was particularly important to prevent them being trapped in wide areas. With Stones, Fernandinho and Otamendi making slight movements to occupy different positions and Bravo in deeper areas offering an easy route to make switches, City were able to make connections when they seemed to be trapped. This was particularly important and advantageous against a United defence that struggled to create access upon these switches, particularly in the half spaces.
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Re: bravo

Postby iwasthere2012 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:43 pm

Read that JC and here's an extract from my earlier post which doesn't have nice fancy diagrams but basically says the same thing only more concisely:

'I saw enough in his first half performance in particular to get a glimpse of how Pep is going to have us play and why he chose him.
I don't think we would have had a quarter of the possession we did with Hart in goal.
Not picking on Joe. Just the fact that he would have hoofed a lot more to nobody in particular and we would have conceded possession. This would have put us under much more pressure, than the 5 minutes or so that came at the end of the first half. '
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Re: bravo

Postby I Just Blue Myself » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:49 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlAe6tXQ1A

Imagine Hart playing the passes at 0:22, 1:03, 1:22 and 2:39 in the video. 3/4 go to a Utd player.
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Re: bravo

Postby johnny crossan » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:59 pm

iwasthere2012 wrote:Read that JC and here's an extract from my earlier post which doesn't have nice fancy diagrams but basically says the same thing only more concisely:

'I saw enough in his first half performance in particular to get a glimpse of how Pep is going to have us play and why he chose him.
I don't think we would have had a quarter of the possession we did with Hart in goal.
Not picking on Joe. Just the fact that he would have hoofed a lot more to nobody in particular and we would have conceded possession. This would have put us under much more pressure, than the 5 minutes or so that came at the end of the first half. '

a masterpiece of compression indeed, omitting only trivial details of analysis and descriptive evidence of interest solely to Germans. lol
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Re: bravo

Postby iwasthere2012 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:11 pm

johnny crossan wrote:
iwasthere2012 wrote:Read that JC and here's an extract from my earlier post which doesn't have nice fancy diagrams but basically says the same thing only more concisely:

'I saw enough in his first half performance in particular to get a glimpse of how Pep is going to have us play and why he chose him.
I don't think we would have had a quarter of the possession we did with Hart in goal.
Not picking on Joe. Just the fact that he would have hoofed a lot more to nobody in particular and we would have conceded possession. This would have put us under much more pressure, than the 5 minutes or so that came at the end of the first half. '

a masterpiece of compression indeed, omitting only trivial details of analysis and descriptive evidence of interest solely to Germans. lol


Yup!
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Re: bravo

Postby Bluedj » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:24 pm

Tokyo Blue wrote:I'm going to give him more than one game before I decide whether he is Bert Trautmann or Martyn Margetson (seeing as this place allows nothing in betweeen).

I think it was Mase who pointed out that steve mcminmum's first game was excellent.



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Re: bravo

Postby Moonchesteri » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:06 pm

I Just Blue Myself wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlAe6tXQ1A

Imagine Hart playing the passes at 0:22, 1:03, 1:22 and 2:39 in the video. 3/4 go to a Utd player.


We haven't had a nice eurotrance video here in a while, well done.
He sure looks good on YouTube but can he do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke?
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Re: bravo

Postby iwasthere2012 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:15 pm

Moonchesteri wrote:
I Just Blue Myself wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlAe6tXQ1A

Imagine Hart playing the passes at 0:22, 1:03, 1:22 and 2:39 in the video. 3/4 go to a Utd player.


We haven't had a nice eurotrance video here in a while, well done.
He sure looks good on YouTube but can he do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke?

Well he couldn't do it on a wet Tuesday night in Manchester. He wasn't let.
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Re: bravo

Postby johnny crossan » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:05 pm

He's staying for next season, Reina is off according to Pep.
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Re: bravo

Postby Justified logic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:58 pm

Given (see what I did there?) that the Reina story is dead, I'll put this here.

Wouldn't it make sense to have a top class goalie for PL and CL games (Ederson, we hope), bring on a talented youngster for FA Cup & EFL Cup games (Muric/Grimshaw/Gunn, were he not out on loan), and an oldie, à la Wright, with plenty of experience who is prepared to play third fiddle but help with coaching the others and able to step in in extremis? I don't see Bravo, an international with Chile, as being destined for that third fiddle role. Rather, I see him keeping the young talent from gaining any experience next season excepting injuries to both him and Ederson. And that is why I'm sad to see we are sticking with him and not going for someone like Reina.
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Re: bravo

Postby BlueinBosnia » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:56 pm

Justified logic wrote:Given (see what I did there?) that the Reina story is dead, I'll put this here.

Wouldn't it make sense to have a top class goalie for PL and CL games (Ederson, we hope), bring on a talented youngster for FA Cup & EFL Cup games (Muric/Grimshaw/Gunn, were he not out on loan), and an oldie, à la Wright, with plenty of experience who is prepared to play third fiddle but help with coaching the others and able to step in in extremis? I don't see Bravo, an international with Chile, as being destined for that third fiddle role. Rather, I see him keeping the young talent from gaining any experience next season excepting injuries to both him and Ederson. And that is why I'm sad to see we are sticking with him and not going for someone like Reina.

Agree with what you say, but, regarding that kind of role, Reina is only 8 months older than Bravo.
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Re: bravo

Postby Niall Quinns Discopants » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:25 pm

Did I mention Brabo is a fucking turd? It could be that I may have forgotten to mention it.
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