FIFA's November 11th decision

[johnny crossan]

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

It was only adopted as a symbol 3 or 4 years ago, in a highly political move aimed to divert attention away from commemoration of the victory of the Partisans over Fascist forces in the Second World War. It came about 100% as the result of Serbia's present-day political scene, and at the same time serves exactly the same purpose as the poppy symbol in the UK, in commemorating war dead and creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.

So according to you the British Legion Red Poppy's purpose 'is creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.'

There seems no end to the to ulterior motives of a British charity that solely exists to honour the memory of those who gave their lives for their country and to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.

and no end to the poppycock on here either

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.
Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?
Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

The British armed forces members, veterans and their families from Londonderry are indeed supported by the British Legion, and there is also government support for for those suffering from the effects of war in Syria, Iraq and many other places whether we are directly involved in the conflicts or not.

So not the innocent men women and children killed by british forces in Derry on bloody sunday!

If it was a maintained as a remembrance symbol for what it was originally intended (ie. Remembrance for the soldiers lost or injured in world war 1) it would be acceptable world wide but when it is also used to remember soldiers who carried out illegal acts of murder on civilians then it is less palpable

The Bloody Sunday killings were terrible and completely unjustified and there have sadly been other dishonourable episodes in British history. Those atrocities committed by a few do not mean that the modern day Poppy Appeal should not be supported and all the heroism and sacrifices of our combatants in war recognised. Wars did not stop in 1918 or 1945 and as long as we call on the armed services to fight and die for us, they deserve our full support.

[Justified logic]

Those atrocities committed by a few do not mean that the modern day Poppy Appeal should not be supported and all the heroism and sacrifices of our combatants in war recognised. Wars did not stop in 1918 or 1945 and as long as we call on the armed services to fight and die for us, they deserve our full support.

So now you're saying wearing the poppy is showing support for our armed services? Is that instead of remembrance of those of all nations who have given their lives in British conflicts since 1914 or a bit of nationalism added on?

[johnny crossan]

Those atrocities committed by a few do not mean that the modern day Poppy Appeal should not be supported and all the heroism and sacrifices of our combatants in war recognised. Wars did not stop in 1918 or 1945 and as long as we call on the armed services to fight and die for us, they deserve our full support.

So now you're saying wearing the poppy is showing support for our armed services? Is that instead of remembrance of those of all nations who have given their lives in British conflicts since 1914 or a bit of nationalism added on?

You think supporting our armed services equates to nationalism? That's novel. All proceeds from wearing the Red Poppy go to the British Legion to support its charitable objectives which are to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants. Those who choose to wear the Poppy in an act of remembrance may do so for any or all those who perished in war as they wish, it's an individual act of respect.

[Justified logic]

Those atrocities committed by a few do not mean that the modern day Poppy Appeal should not be supported and all the heroism and sacrifices of our combatants in war recognised. Wars did not stop in 1918 or 1945 and as long as we call on the armed services to fight and die for us, they deserve our full support.

So now you're saying wearing the poppy is showing support for our armed services? Is that instead of remembrance of those of all nations who have given their lives in British conflicts since 1914 or a bit of nationalism added on?

You think supporting our armed services equates to nationalism? That's novel. All proceeds from wearing the Red Poppy go to the British Legion to support its charitable objectives which are to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants. Those who choose to wear the Poppy in an act of remembrance may do so for any or all those who perished in war as they wish, it's an individual act of respect.

No, but you seemed to suggest that wearing the poppy is supporting our armed services in all the conflicts they have been and continue to be involved in. That makes the poppy not just a political symbol but also a nationalist one. Well, the red poppy anyway.

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

[BlueinBosnia]

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

The British Legion have nothing to do with the white poppy, and most of their younger members will claim to have never heard of it and not know where to get one, as their job is to raise funds for the Royal British Legion by selling the red ones and related memorabilia. I think a variety of organizations produce the white ones, but the most well-known is the PPU. Money raised goes to funding education and campaigning in relation to non-violent approaches to conflict and anti-militarism.

[johnny crossan]

Those atrocities committed by a few do not mean that the modern day Poppy Appeal should not be supported and all the heroism and sacrifices of our combatants in war recognised. Wars did not stop in 1918 or 1945 and as long as we call on the armed services to fight and die for us, they deserve our full support.

So now you're saying wearing the poppy is showing support for our armed services? Is that instead of remembrance of those of all nations who have given their lives in British conflicts since 1914 or a bit of nationalism added on?

You think supporting our armed services equates to nationalism? That's novel. All proceeds from wearing the Red Poppy go to the British Legion to support its charitable objectives which are to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants. Those who choose to wear the Poppy in an act of remembrance may do so for any or all those who perished in war as they wish, it's an individual act of respect.

No, but you seemed to suggest that wearing the poppy is supporting our armed services in all the conflicts they have been and continue to be involved in. That makes the poppy not just a political symbol but also a nationalist one. Well, the red poppy anyway.

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

Our armed forces don't get to choose the war or action they put their lives on the line for. They obey orders and do their duty for their country whatever we might think about the merits or otherwise of engaging in a particular conflict.

[johnny crossan]

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

The British Legion have nothing to do with the white poppy, and most of their younger members will claim to have never heard of it and not know where to get one, as their job is to raise funds for the Royal British Legion by selling the red ones and related memorabilia. I think a variety of organizations produce the white ones, but the most well-known is the PPU. Money raised goes to funding education and campaigning in relation to non-violent approaches to conflict and anti-militarism.

from the RBL website - no doubt they'd also be interested in your scientific poll of their poppy sellers' knowledge of the white poppy
http://support.britishlegion.org.uk/app ... poppy-faqs

"What is the Legion's view on white poppies?

We have no objection to white poppies, or any group expressing their views. We see no conflict in wearing the red poppy alongside the white poppy. We do ask that the items are not offered alongside each other however as this would confuse the public."

[mr_nool]

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

The British Legion have nothing to do with the white poppy, and most of their younger members will claim to have never heard of it and not know where to get one, as their job is to raise funds for the Royal British Legion by selling the red ones and related memorabilia. I think a variety of organizations produce the white ones, but the most well-known is the PPU. Money raised goes to funding education and campaigning in relation to non-violent approaches to conflict and anti-militarism.

That's the one I'd buy if I were British. As it is now I just observe from a distance, totally gobsmacked at how big of a deal this has become over the last few years. The whole discourse is so bloody unnuanced.

[johnny crossan]

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

The British Legion have nothing to do with the white poppy, and most of their younger members will claim to have never heard of it and not know where to get one, as their job is to raise funds for the Royal British Legion by selling the red ones and related memorabilia. I think a variety of organizations produce the white ones, but the most well-known is the PPU. Money raised goes to funding education and campaigning in relation to non-violent approaches to conflict and anti-militarism.

That's the one I'd buy if I were British. As it is now I just observe from a distance, totally gobsmacked at how big of a deal this has become over the last few years. The whole discourse is so bloody unnuanced.

be like Jezzer and wear both!

[BlueinBosnia]

I'd wear a white poppy as it "symbolises remembrance of all casualties of war including civilian casualties, and non-British casualties, To stand for peace, and not to glamorise war", to quote from my favourite weirdo website for trolling amoebas but all the poppy sellers I've asked about it had never heard of it. Will have to buy it direct next year.

The British Legion have nothing to do with the white poppy, and most of their younger members will claim to have never heard of it and not know where to get one, as their job is to raise funds for the Royal British Legion by selling the red ones and related memorabilia. I think a variety of organizations produce the white ones, but the most well-known is the PPU. Money raised goes to funding education and campaigning in relation to non-violent approaches to conflict and anti-militarism.

from the RBL website - no doubt they'd also be interested in your scientific poll of their poppy sellers' knowledge of the white poppy
http://support.britishlegion.org.uk/app ... poppy-faqs

"What is the Legion's view on white poppies?

We have no objection to white poppies, or any group expressing their views. We see no conflict in wearing the red poppy alongside the white poppy. We do ask that the items are not offered alongside each other however as this would confuse the public."

What I've said comes from conversations I've had with friends who are poppy sellers or coordinate the sellers. Some of the kids get a bit offended when they're asked about them (normally being from junior forces' associations), but my friends who are/have been coordinators have told them to try to steer the conversation away from white poppies. And there is ALWAYS discussion of the white poppies issue between coordinators and vendors before sales start each year (a coordinator's words and emphasis via Facebook message in the past 5 minutes, not mine), so people who deny knowledge are almost always flat-out telling porkies, but it is one way to get off the subject. I don't know whether this is some internal policy from the RBL (and have never claimed to), but 100% know more about what happens on the street with sellers in some instances than that copy-paste job from the RBL you just did tells us.

Oh, and in most cases they're not 'their' poppy sellers - selling is generally mandated out to third-party groups who are responsible for their own conduct while selling. So again copy-pasting doesn't tell us much.

[johnny crossan]

"What is the Legion's view on white poppies?
We have no objection to white poppies, or any group expressing their views. We see no conflict in wearing the red poppy alongside the white poppy.
We do ask that the items are not offered alongside each other however as this would confuse the public."

What I've said comes from conversations I've had with friends who are poppy sellers or coordinate the sellers. Some of the kids get a bit offended when they're asked about them (normally being from junior forces' associations), but my friends who are/have been coordinators have told them to try to steer the conversation away from white poppies. And there is ALWAYS discussion of the white poppies issue between coordinators and vendors before sales start each year (a coordinator's words and emphasis via Facebook message in the past 5 minutes, not mine), so people who deny knowledge are almost always flat-out telling porkies, but it is one way to get off the subject. I don't know whether this is some internal policy from the RBL (and have never claimed to), but 100% know more about what happens on the street with sellers in some instances than that copy-paste job from the RBL you just did tells us.
Oh, and in most cases they're not 'their' poppy sellers - selling is generally mandated out to third-party groups who are responsible for their own conduct while selling. So again copy-pasting doesn't tell us much.

The British Legion, don't have a problem with White Poppies, as per their website.
Your 'expert' mates on Facebook and elsewhere think otherwise.
So your point is what ? The Legion are liars? You don't understand possessive pronouns? Copy-pasting the truth upsets you?
The red poppy sellers should sell both even though sale of the white poppies benefits no-one but a few hard-left unilateralists who make them ?

[Beefymcfc]

I think every individual should have the choice to wear a poppy if they want.

The problem, from where I'm standing, seems to be that it is forced on everyone and every year is a big talking point.

Which if course is fucking ridiculous.

If those who wanted to wear it, wore it and those who didn't feel like it, didn't...

I reckon that might do the trick.

And that is everybody's right mate. Why people think that they should wear a Poppy because they feel that somebody may look at them differently is an individual thing and it's down to them to either man-up or shut up. From my pov I wear that Poppy with pride, thinking back to the many family members who have served and gone through horrendous pain and conditions to serve their country.

We are a multi-cultural society and our diversity is now what makes us strong. What takes away from that is that some cannot respect others views, those that believe that this is non-political and a charitable association there to help those who have fallen on hard times.

I'll leave it there as it it an emotive subject that shouldn't, but can really split opinion. Just to say that if we cannot remember our dead, in our own country, by the way of a single symbol, says more about the state of society, than football.

FIFA are a fucking joke and if anybody thinks it's anything other than money with them, then they're deluding themselves. Nothing gets in the way of the sponsors.

[Dameerto]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

[Cocacolajojo]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

[johnny crossan]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Everything's political if you want it to be. What is unacceptable is hi-jacking people's mark of respect for lives lost in war and subverting it to gain attention for anti-militarist propaganda promoted by a hard left minority group.

[Cocacolajojo]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Everything's political if you want it to be. What is unacceptable is hi-jacking people's mark of respect for lives lost in war and subverting it to gain attention for anti-militarist propaganda promoted by a hard left minority group.

I agree about everything being political but the armed forces are political even without the slightest amount of imagination. To claim they're not political requires a lot of justification.

Comparing not being able to wear the poppy symbol at a football game, be it right or wrong, to the Nazis' treatment of jews is a fucking disgrace.

[johnny crossan]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.
Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?
Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Everything's political if you want it to be. What is unacceptable is hi-jacking people's mark of respect for lives lost in war and subverting it to gain attention for anti-militarist propaganda promoted by a hard left minority group.

I agree about everything being political but the armed forces are political even without the slightest amount of imagination. To claim they're not political requires a lot of justification. Comparing not being able to wear the poppy symbol at a football game, be it right or wrong, to the Nazis' treatment of jews is a fucking disgrace.

Only the slightest amount of clear thinking is required to understand that the deployment of armed forces is a different matter than respecting and supporting the welfare of those who serve and served in them. As for the Nazis desecrating the Star of David, which the neo variety are still doing by the way, that is a great example of where deliberate political action aimed at undermining groups through attacking their symbols can lead.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I have no idea what Nazi's desecrating the Star of David has to do with this debate. Has someone desecrated the poppy?

[johnny crossan]

I have no idea what Nazi's desecrating the Star of David has to do with this debate. Has someone desecrated the poppy?

You need to pay more attention then

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I have no idea what Nazi's desecrating the Star of David has to do with this debate. Has someone desecrated the poppy?

You need to pay more attention then

Explain then.