FIFA's November 11th decision

[Cocacolajojo]

Only the slightest amount of clear thinking is required to understand that the deployment of armed forces is a different matter than respecting and supporting the welfare of those who serve and served in them. As for the Nazis attacking the Star of David, which the neo variety are still doing by the way, that is a great example of where deliberate political action aimed at undermining groups through their symbols can lead.

Yes, but I was replying to a post saying that we shouldn't politicise the armed forces.

You don't seem the type of person that's interested in a conversation, or rather, what you seem to think is a conversation is really what most of us refer to as a monologue. So I don't think anything I can write will change your mind. I might be mistaken and I apoligize if that is the case, but the destruction of jewish graves in Nazi Germany in the 1930s not even remotely the same thing as not being able to wear a poppy symbol at an international football game. If it is, I suggest you be more pedagogical so that the rest of us get it.

[johnny crossan]

I have no idea what Nazi's desecrating the Star of David has to do with this debate. Has someone desecrated the poppy?

You need to pay more attention then

Explain then.

Read the thread or PM Blue in Bosnia then
.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I have no idea what Nazi's desecrating the Star of David has to do with this debate. Has someone desecrated the poppy?

You need to pay more attention then

Explain then.

Read the thread or PM Blue in Bosnia then
.

I'll take that as you can't explain, thought as much.

[johnny crossan]

Only the slightest amount of clear thinking is required to understand that the deployment of armed forces is a different matter than respecting and supporting the welfare of those who serve and served in them. As for the Nazis attacking the Star of David, which the neo variety are still doing by the way, that is a great example of where deliberate political action aimed at undermining groups through their symbols can lead.

Yes, but I was replying to a post saying that we shouldn't politicise the armed forces.

You don't seem the type of person that's interested in a conversation, or rather, what you seem to think is a conversation is really what most of us refer to as a monologue. So I don't think anything I can write will change your mind. I might be mistaken and I apoligize if that is the case, but the destruction of jewish graves in Nazi Germany in the 1930s not even remotely the same thing as not being able to wear a poppy symbol at an international football game. If it is, I suggest you be more pedagogical so that the rest of us get it.

Exactly, which is what you are doing. Politicising charitable support for the members of the armed forces through promoting alternative white poppies is just a way of opposing British involvement in particular, or indeed any, military conflicts. If you can't see the historical parallels in attacking the symbols of groups you wish to undermine then all I can suggest is that you do some more research. The FIFA ban is simply a byproduct of the politicisation. It seems we have several monologues in search of conversation here.

[BlueinBosnia]

"What is the Legion's view on white poppies?
We have no objection to white poppies, or any group expressing their views. We see no conflict in wearing the red poppy alongside the white poppy.
We do ask that the items are not offered alongside each other however as this would confuse the public."

What I've said comes from conversations I've had with friends who are poppy sellers or coordinate the sellers. Some of the kids get a bit offended when they're asked about them (normally being from junior forces' associations), but my friends who are/have been coordinators have told them to try to steer the conversation away from white poppies. And there is ALWAYS discussion of the white poppies issue between coordinators and vendors before sales start each year (a coordinator's words and emphasis via Facebook message in the past 5 minutes, not mine), so people who deny knowledge are almost always flat-out telling porkies, but it is one way to get off the subject. I don't know whether this is some internal policy from the RBL (and have never claimed to), but 100% know more about what happens on the street with sellers in some instances than that copy-paste job from the RBL you just did tells us.
Oh, and in most cases they're not 'their' poppy sellers - selling is generally mandated out to third-party groups who are responsible for their own conduct while selling. So again copy-pasting doesn't tell us much.

The British Legion, don't have a problem with White Poppies, as per their website.
Your 'expert' mates on Facebook and elsewhere think otherwise.
So your point is what ? The Legion are liars? You don't understand possessive pronouns? Copy-pasting the truth upsets you?
The red poppy sellers should sell both even though sale of the white poppies benefits no-one but a few hard-left unilateralists who make them ?

My comments were related to poppy sellers, not the British Legion. My 'expert' mate on Facebook (as well as others I've had conversations with before) - as I clearly stated in my post - is a coordinator for poppy sellers. My point was that many poppy sellers deny knowledge of the White Poppy as their job is to raise funds for the RBL, and they a) cannot sell the white poppy and b) are trying to sell the red poppy. Any conversation that the sellers (again, as you seem to be being deliberately obtuse, or too slow on the uptake - as is my suspicion from previous altercations I've seen you involved in on this board - to participate in meaningful dialogue when things don't go your way, NOT the British Legion) have discussing the white poppy risks detracting from sales/donations for the RBL, and so they try to avoid them any way possible, one of which is denying knowledge of their existence.

[johnny crossan]

"What is the Legion's view on white poppies?
We have no objection to white poppies, or any group expressing their views. We see no conflict in wearing the red poppy alongside the white poppy.
We do ask that the items are not offered alongside each other however as this would confuse the public."

What I've said comes from conversations I've had with friends who are poppy sellers or coordinate the sellers. Some of the kids get a bit offended when they're asked about them (normally being from junior forces' associations), but my friends who are/have been coordinators have told them to try to steer the conversation away from white poppies. And there is ALWAYS discussion of the white poppies issue between coordinators and vendors before sales start each year (a coordinator's words and emphasis via Facebook message in the past 5 minutes, not mine), so people who deny knowledge are almost always flat-out telling porkies, but it is one way to get off the subject. I don't know whether this is some internal policy from the RBL (and have never claimed to), but 100% know more about what happens on the street with sellers in some instances than that copy-paste job from the RBL you just did tells us.
Oh, and in most cases they're not 'their' poppy sellers - selling is generally mandated out to third-party groups who are responsible for their own conduct while selling. So again copy-pasting doesn't tell us much.

The British Legion, don't have a problem with White Poppies, as per their website.
Your 'expert' mates on Facebook and elsewhere think otherwise.
So your point is what ? The Legion are liars? You don't understand possessive pronouns? Copy-pasting the truth upsets you?
The red poppy sellers should sell both even though sale of the white poppies benefits no-one but a few hard-left unilateralists who make them ?

My comments were related to poppy sellers, not the British Legion. My 'expert' mate on Facebook (as well as others I've had conversations with before) - as I clearly stated in my post - is a coordinator for poppy sellers. My point was that many poppy sellers deny knowledge of the White Poppy as their job is to raise funds for the RBL, and they a) cannot sell the white poppy and b) are trying to sell the red poppy. Any conversation that the sellers (again, as you seem to be being deliberately obtuse, or too slow on the uptake - as is my suspicion from previous altercations I've seen you involved in on this board - to participate in meaningful dialogue when things don't go your way, NOT the British Legion) have discussing the white poppy risks detracting from sales/donations for the RBL, and so they try to avoid them any way possible, one of which is denying knowledge of their existence.

Your comments are directed at the British Legion. You highlighted the words of their website statement in trying to claim there is an issue between BL and those who sell their poppies. For every single white poppy seller, plugging some far-left group or other, there are probably several million red poppy sellers, only selling red poppies exclusively for the RBL charity. I really don't know how they sell poppies in Bosnia, if that's where you live, but in the rest of the world the idea that there is any kind sort of contest between the red and white varieties is absurd. It is an internet fiction, an invented issue and it exists only in the propaganda of those who hijacked the 30s pacifist white poppy movement and use it cynically and solely to finance attempts to promote their minority anti-military ideology. Here's a tip, just stick to the argument and don't resort to personal insults, it can occasionally be entertaining but in this case demeans a serious subject.

[Dameerto]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Political decisions start wars. Civilian deaths as a result of conflict are the responsibility of the politicians.
Armed Forces are the tools of politicians but to call them political is ridiculous. "A bad workman blames his tools."

[iwasthere2012]

I think every individual should have the choice to wear a poppy if they want.

The problem, from where I'm standing, seems to be that it is forced on everyone and every year is a big talking point.

Which if course is fucking ridiculous.

If those who wanted to wear it, wore it and those who didn't feel like it, didn't...

I reckon that might do the trick.

+1. I'm with you on that one.
I had no problem with McClean choosing not to wear a poppy.
Given his background it's very understanable and I have no time for anyone who brands him a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter as a result of his beliefs.
That is exactly the kind of arrogance and lack of understanding of the 'Irish Situation' that gets up peoples noses over here.

It should be free will. Wear it if you want, don't if you don't want to.

Regarding FIFA's stance re political symbols;
The FA have drawn attention to this and should have just done it and said nothing to FIFA.
Now as justification they've drawn attention to the Irish 1916 commemoration.
Ireland gets a retrospective fine and you still can't wear a poppy.

I'm not objecting to Ireland getting a fine either. That's as political as you can get whether we Irish see it otherwise or not.
But you get the impression they didn't even know about it until The English FA brought up as an argument supposedly to favour their cause.

They should have just gone for it. Who would have complained?

[Cocacolajojo]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Political decisions start wars. Civilian deaths as a result of conflict are the responsibility of the politicians.
Armed Forces are the tools of politicians but to call them political is ridiculous. "A bad workman blames his tools."

Sure.

[johnny crossan]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

Stop politicising the armed forces - if you want to take political issue with certain conflicts then do so with the politicians.

Armed forces are political.

Political decisions start wars. Civilian deaths as a result of conflict are the responsibility of the politicians.
Armed Forces are the tools of politicians but to call them political is ridiculous. "A bad workman blames his tools."

Sure.

unless it's a military coup

[Cocacolajojo]

Unless it's a coup against fifa

[Dameerto]

Armed forces are political.

Political decisions start wars. Civilian deaths as a result of conflict are the responsibility of the politicians.
Armed Forces are the tools of politicians but to call them political is ridiculous. "A bad workman blames his tools."

Sure.

unless it's a military coup

The context was the UK surely. I'm curious where all those suddenly finding the poppy political were when England last wore it a few years ago - or maybe the social media fashion for knocking it hadn't fully kicked in back then.

[johnny crossan]

Armed forces are political.

Political decisions start wars. Civilian deaths as a result of conflict are the responsibility of the politicians.
Armed Forces are the tools of politicians but to call them political is ridiculous. "A bad workman blames his tools."

Sure.

unless it's a military coup

The context was the UK surely...

Harold Wilson might have given you an argument about that after Heathrow was occupied by the Army in 1974 without cabinet knowledge. Allegedly a show of strength with a certain Admiral ready to depose the PM and take control of the country when Heath failed to get an electoral mandate to take on the unions...it's claimed

[zuricity]

If ever a topic needed to be on the 'Off topic' section , it is this one.

[johnny crossan]

If ever a topic needed to be on the 'Off topic' section , it is this one.

Quite right and it's good to see Jezzer has abandoned his white poppy at the Festival of Remembrance tonight.
His mini gold-embossed designer version is so fetching, no plebeian red plastic poppy for our man of principle.

[BlueinBosnia]

I noticed the French team had the bleuet de France on their training kits for their game v Sweden, but didn't see it on their actual kits (although I wasn't watching the game too carefully, I must admit). Anyone know whether they'll get punished for this?

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I noticed the French team had the bleuet de France on their training kits for their game v Sweden, but didn't see it on their actual kits (although I wasn't watching the game too carefully, I must admit). Anyone know whether they'll get punished for this?

Depends if the FA grass them up, I guess.

[zuricity]

If ever a topic needed to be on the 'Off topic' section , it is this one.

Quite right and it's good to see Jezzer has abandoned his white poppy at the Festival of Remembrance tonight.
His mini gold-embossed designer version is so fetching, no plebeian red plastic poppy for our man of principle.

Actually i am more concerned about how Southgate thinks he can wear light tan leather shoes with a Mediterranean blue , badly fitting suit.

[johnny crossan]

If ever a topic needed to be on the 'Off topic' section , it is this one.

Quite right and it's good to see Jezzer has abandoned his white poppy at the Festival of Remembrance tonight.
His mini gold-embossed designer version is so fetching, no plebeian red plastic poppy for our man of principle.

Actually i am more concerned about how Southgate thinks he can wear light tan leather shoes with a Mediterranean blue , badly fitting suit.

Gareth must have been made up to get an invite from HMQ to the Albert Hall then, but it's a poor show if didn't change out of his his muddy Wembley togs.Or maybe you're just a confused silly billy living out there where the history of armed conflict is based on firing arrows at apples and strutting round the Vatican for a few hundred years in stripey blue, red, orange and yellow trousers .

[zuricity]

If ever a topic needed to be on the 'Off topic' section , it is this one.

Quite right and it's good to see Jezzer has abandoned his white poppy at the Festival of Remembrance tonight.
His mini gold-embossed designer version is so fetching, no plebeian red plastic poppy for our man of principle.

Actually i am more concerned about how Southgate thinks he can wear light tan leather shoes with a Mediterranean blue , badly fitting suit.

Gareth must have been made up to get an invite from HMQ to the Albert Hall then, but it's a poor show if didn't change out of his his muddy Wembley togs.Or maybe you're just a confused silly billy living out there where the history of armed conflict is based on firing arrows at apples and strutting round the Vatican for a few hundred years in stripey blue, red, orange and yellow trousers .

Nah mate you couldn't be further from the reality of it all.

My Dad was a Royal Marine that preferred not to talk about his escapades in North Germany.

Amongst others ,he also honoured the loss of two of my uncles that signed on too young and bought it fighting the japanese, every year until he died at the Cenotaph , St Peters square.

btw , belittling the folks living in the Alps , doesn't help your cause.