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Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Yes we did Carl, we probably did more than we're doing now.

https://youtu.be/Mndf_uqrW64

34 seconds in, we pass, get pressed....GO DIRECT.

I know we don't play the same way because I didn't scream at my telly STOP FUCKING ABOUT AT THE BACK as much as I do now.

Slim wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Yes we did Carl, we probably did more than we're doing now.

https://youtu.be/Mndf_uqrW64

34 seconds in, we pass, get pressed....GO DIRECT.

I know we don't play the same way because I didn't scream at my telly STOP FUCKING ABOUT AT THE BACK as much as I do now.

No, we pass, get pressed which opens up space further up the field which Kolarov spots and takes advantage off.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Slim wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Yes we did Carl, we probably did more than we're doing now.

https://youtu.be/Mndf_uqrW64

34 seconds in, we pass, get pressed....GO DIRECT.

I know we don't play the same way because I didn't scream at my telly STOP FUCKING ABOUT AT THE BACK as much as I do now.

No, we pass, get pressed which opens up space further up the field which Kolarov spots and takes advantage off.

You say no and then restate what I said.

However, it is exactly what I'd like them to do, or speculate, either way we're not panicking 30 yards from our own goal trying to pass through teams when there are shitty options available.

The term 'go direct' puts me in mind of BFS or Pulis, that's far removed from what Kolarov did there.

Might it be a case of we're improving playing out from the back Slim and that's why you don't see as much panic?

As a veteran of many FM games, you tend to distinguish between direct passing and long ball.

It's seriously gotten better because the defenders trust Willy and don't trust Bravo. They are quite willing to let Willy have space and Bravo would have conceded against Huddersfield had it not been for Stones and Zabs on the line, showing you how much they trust him.(TBF he did make a couple of decent saves in that game) However goal line clearance from Stones(BTW, fuck off with Stones hate all you cunts on that other thread, he is playing exactly as well as I'd expect a 1st year centrehalf to play in a new system at a new club) and the fumble that was cleared by Zabs show they are right to play almost on top of him.

Slim wrote:As a veteran of many FM games, you tend to distinguish between direct passing and long ball.

It's seriously gotten better because the defenders trust Willy and don't trust Bravo. They are quite willing to let Willy have space and Bravo would have conceded against Huddersfield had it not been for Stones and Zabs on the line, showing you how much they trust him.(TBF he did make a couple of decent saves in that game) However goal line clearance from Stones(BTW, fuck off with Stones hate all you cunts on that other thread, he is playing exactly as well as I'd expect a 1st year centrehalf to play in a new system at a new club) and the fumble that was cleared by Zabs show they are right to play almost on top of him.

This is the key point for me.

A defender, or two in the case of the Stones clearance, on the line behind Bravo means fewer defenders out there actually doing defence. But maybe this backstop tactic will catch on and other teams will start doing it.

Justified logic wrote:

Slim wrote:As a veteran of many FM games, you tend to distinguish between direct passing and long ball.

It's seriously gotten better because the defenders trust Willy and don't trust Bravo. They are quite willing to let Willy have space and Bravo would have conceded against Huddersfield had it not been for Stones and Zabs on the line, showing you how much they trust him.(TBF he did make a couple of decent saves in that game) However goal line clearance from Stones(BTW, fuck off with Stones hate all you cunts on that other thread, he is playing exactly as well as I'd expect a 1st year centrehalf to play in a new system at a new club) and the fumble that was cleared by Zabs show they are right to play almost on top of him.

This is the key point for me.

A defender, or two in the case of the Stones clearance, on the line behind Bravo means fewer defenders out there actually doing defence. But maybe this backstop tactic will catch on and other teams will start doing it.

Defenders doing their job, one on the post from a corner and two on the line only because the header from the initial cross was pulled back across the face instead of headed at goal. Nothing to do with playing on top of him, although nice to see the effort to get back and help their keeper rather than hanging him out to dry.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Slim wrote:

patrickblue wrote:How is that ever going to be effective against a parked bus. By definition the two lines of four are going to be in their own half and are going to let our defence knock it around to their hearts content.

I agree, even when we manage to pass it out of defence and get it headed forward, we are not playing the ball quickly enough into attack and expose these areas. We could argue attempting to do this in the first half is what allows us to have some spectacular 2nd half displays as legs tire, but the heart attack first half isn't enjoyable at all to me and the quicker we see shot of this whole exercise the better. I hope it doesn't require some top shelf team destroying us before Pep can see it.

So what's the alternative? Do we just go back to our keeper kicking the ball over the sideline halway up the pitch ( at least we gain territory ), playing it long and high for our midgets in attack to compete aerially, give the ball back to the opposition half the time our keeper gets it?

The alternative is we mix it and stop being so predictable. If playing out from the back is working use it, if it;s not, go longer.
It's not black and white, not a case of either playing out from the back, or leathering it the length of the field, there's an infinite amount of shades of grey.
All this passing around our own box is just Pep's ego, sure it can work, but if that's all you do it just gets predictable, and becomes ineffective, as we saw last night.

patrickblue wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Slim wrote:

patrickblue wrote:How is that ever going to be effective against a parked bus. By definition the two lines of four are going to be in their own half and are going to let our defence knock it around to their hearts content.

I agree, even when we manage to pass it out of defence and get it headed forward, we are not playing the ball quickly enough into attack and expose these areas. We could argue attempting to do this in the first half is what allows us to have some spectacular 2nd half displays as legs tire, but the heart attack first half isn't enjoyable at all to me and the quicker we see shot of this whole exercise the better. I hope it doesn't require some top shelf team destroying us before Pep can see it.

So what's the alternative? Do we just go back to our keeper kicking the ball over the sideline halway up the pitch ( at least we gain territory ), playing it long and high for our midgets in attack to compete aerially, give the ball back to the opposition half the time our keeper gets it?

The alternative is we mix it and stop being so predictable. If playing out from the back is working use it, if it;s not, go longer.
It's not black and white, not a case of either playing out from the back, or leathering it the length of the field, there's an infinite amount of shades of grey.
All this passing around our own box is just Pep's ego, sure it can work, but if that's all you do it just gets predictable, and becomes ineffective, as we saw last night.

Completely agree that we need to mix it up more and herein lies the problem, Bravo is capable of that but Caballero not so much, Caballero makes saves but Bravo so far doesn't.

patrickblue wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Slim wrote:

patrickblue wrote:How is that ever going to be effective against a parked bus. By definition the two lines of four are going to be in their own half and are going to let our defence knock it around to their hearts content.

I agree, even when we manage to pass it out of defence and get it headed forward, we are not playing the ball quickly enough into attack and expose these areas. We could argue attempting to do this in the first half is what allows us to have some spectacular 2nd half displays as legs tire, but the heart attack first half isn't enjoyable at all to me and the quicker we see shot of this whole exercise the better. I hope it doesn't require some top shelf team destroying us before Pep can see it.

So what's the alternative? Do we just go back to our keeper kicking the ball over the sideline halway up the pitch ( at least we gain territory ), playing it long and high for our midgets in attack to compete aerially, give the ball back to the opposition half the time our keeper gets it?

The alternative is we mix it and stop being so predictable. If playing out from the back is working use it, if it;s not, go longer.
It's not black and white, not a case of either playing out from the back, or leathering it the length of the field, there's an infinite amount of shades of grey.
All this passing around our own box is just Pep's ego, sure it can work, but if that's all you do it just gets predictable, and becomes ineffective, as we saw last night.

We've a bit of a dilemma there though.
We pumped quite s few forward last night but I don't recall winning one of them.
The type of midfielder/forwards we employ 9 times out of 10, they don't even contest a long ball forward.

a Sky article with some stats/graphics comparing Bravo to Willy this season. interesting read:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10802908/liverpool-and-man-citys-struggling-goalkeepers-analysed

a surprisng bit:

[Willy] has only conceded a goal every 180 minutes - that's the best rate of any Premier League goalkeeper that has played more than 700 minutes this season.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

patrickblue wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Slim wrote:

patrickblue wrote:How is that ever going to be effective against a parked bus. By definition the two lines of four are going to be in their own half and are going to let our defence knock it around to their hearts content.

I agree, even when we manage to pass it out of defence and get it headed forward, we are not playing the ball quickly enough into attack and expose these areas. We could argue attempting to do this in the first half is what allows us to have some spectacular 2nd half displays as legs tire, but the heart attack first half isn't enjoyable at all to me and the quicker we see shot of this whole exercise the better. I hope it doesn't require some top shelf team destroying us before Pep can see it.

So what's the alternative? Do we just go back to our keeper kicking the ball over the sideline halway up the pitch ( at least we gain territory ), playing it long and high for our midgets in attack to compete aerially, give the ball back to the opposition half the time our keeper gets it?

The alternative is we mix it and stop being so predictable. If playing out from the back is working use it, if it;s not, go longer.
It's not black and white, not a case of either playing out from the back, or leathering it the length of the field, there's an infinite amount of shades of grey.
All this passing around our own box is just Pep's ego, sure it can work, but if that's all you do it just gets predictable, and becomes ineffective, as we saw last night.

We've a bit of a dilemma there though.
We pumped quite s few forward last night but I don't recall winning one of them.
The type of midfielder/forwards we employ 9 times out of 10, they don't even contest a long ball forward.

Come off it, we changed second half, stopped the triangles around the defence and went a lot more direct, which made the difference.

patrickblue wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:
We've a bit of a dilemma there though.
We pumped quite s few forward last night but I don't recall winning one of them.
The type of midfielder/forwards we employ 9 times out of 10, they don't even contest a long ball forward.

Come off it, we changed second half, stopped the triangles around the defence and went a lot more direct, which made the difference.

i thought the biggest difference was that they sat back a bit and let us play it out from the back.

mr_nool wrote:

patrickblue wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:
We've a bit of a dilemma there though.
We pumped quite s few forward last night but I don't recall winning one of them.
The type of midfielder/forwards we employ 9 times out of 10, they don't even contest a long ball forward.

Come off it, we changed second half, stopped the triangles around the defence and went a lot more direct, which made the difference.

i thought the biggest difference was that they sat back a bit and let us play it out from the back.

That's exactly what happened, what also happened was KDB dropped deeper to help Fern.

phips wrote:a Sky article with some stats/graphics comparing Bravo to Willy this season. interesting read:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10802908/liverpool-and-man-citys-struggling-goalkeepers-analysed

a surprisng bit:

[Willy] has only conceded a goal every 180 minutes - that's the best rate of any Premier League goalkeeper that has played more than 700 minutes this season.

We are unbeaten with him in goal in the league if I am not mistaken.

mr_nool wrote:

patrickblue wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:
We've a bit of a dilemma there though.
We pumped quite s few forward last night but I don't recall winning one of them.
The type of midfielder/forwards we employ 9 times out of 10, they don't even contest a long ball forward.

Come off it, we changed second half, stopped the triangles around the defence and went a lot more direct, which made the difference.

i thought the biggest difference was that they sat back a bit and let us play it out from the back.

We mixed it, they sat back because we stopped playing the predictable same old stuff.
It's what I keep saying, it's not one or the other, it's not Pep or Pulis, it's everything in between.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said Patrick.
What I meant is that we were forced to pump a lot forward in the first half, because we had no other outlet. We won none that I remember.
Second half definitely changed but as others have said I think it had as much to do with a slight adjustment of formation. Kev started to pick the ball up from defense, but I also think they slackened off their press.

Fair enough. I did indeed misinterpret what you said, but then anything that was pumped forward in the first half was done in panic mode, so you wouldn't expect the MF to get much. My feeling was that they were determined to to play out come hell or high water despite the fact they had obviously been completely sussed.


This is what Trevor Sinclair said about it, and what I saw

Former Manchester City winger Trevor Sinclair on BBC Radio 5 live: "I thought Kevin de Bruyne, David Silva and Fernandinho didn't take responsibility on the ball. They looked shell-shocked at the start by Monaco. From the first kick of the second half they went long and the gaps appeared. They needed to realise that sooner. In the first leg, Yaya Toure did that. It happened too late here.

"There was a lack of leadership on the pitch and a lack of bravery. Take John Stones out of that, who was excellent tonight. There was too many players who underachieved and didn't take responsibility."

"Looking at the game management, Pep may feel let down by his players. They didn't have the footballing IQ to know they had to play some long balls in, to recognise the scenario of the game. It took Pep to tell them at half-time. That is basic football."

The only bit I'm not sure about is the fact he's blaming the players. That's the way Pep obviously told them to play, and he's the boss.

If anyone wondered:

With Bravo in goal in the league:

2-1 vs Filth
4-0 vs Bournemouth
2-1 vs Swansea
0-2 vs Spurs
1-1 vs Everton
1-1 vs Soton
4-0 vs WBA
1-1 vs Boro
2-1 vs Palace
2-1 vs Burnley
1-3 vs Chelsea
2-4 vs Leicester
2-0 vs Watford
2-1 vs Arsenal
3-0 vs Hull
0-1 vs Scouse
2-1 vs Burnley
0-4 vs Everton
2-2 vs Scouse

25 goals conceided in 19 league games. 4 clean sheets - 34 points


With Willy in goal:

2-1 with Sunderland
4-1 with Stoke
3-1 with West Ham United
4-0 vs WHU
2-1 vs Swansea
2-0 vs Bournemouth
2-0 vs Sunderland
0-0 vs Stoke

4 goals conceided in 8 games. 4 clean sheets. - 22 points

Staggering stats and yet Pep still plays the clown