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Should have been two nil apparently according to the two bloats

for comparison's sake:

in the league this season Gundogan has a 90% pass accuracy with a avg distance of 14m. in that he supposedly plays only 0.5 key passes per match, which is 5th lowest on the team (outfield players only) behind Kompany, Danilo, Mangala, and Otamendi. Yaya, who has been criticized for slowing down play this season, has a higher pass accuracy and plays more key passes per match (0.7--small difference i know).

Mangala had an 84% pass accuracy last season with Valencia and those had an average distal of 21m. Last season Fernando had a pass accuracy of 88% with an avg distance of 16m.

So, two players who i believe have been consistently criticized for their passing abilities on this site both played longer passes than Gundogan. yes that was last season but it demonstrates that even those 2 players were more ambitious in their successful passing that Ilkay has done this season.

passing accuracy isn't the most important statistic. i know he hasn't played a lot this season but im not the one that brought up his statistic from this season so im just using them because they were made eligible in this discussion.


additionally, in the image below of the passing map from the Spurs match that i mentioned you can see that Ilkay's dot is small (low # of touches) and his most common pass was sideways to Delph at LB with only a few going to Sane on the wing or KDB centrally.

phips wrote:Beefy, no, not "first and foremost". I have no idea where people got that from.

admittedly maybe im subconsciously comparing him to Silva because he's taken his spot even though they're far from the same type of player. i dont believe im being overly critical. im well aware of his injury history and I've also mentioned more than a few times that he needs to get match time to get back up to speed. that being said, i haven't seen a single thing from him thats been good this season (aside from his headed goal vs Spurs). he misplaces most of his passes (excluding the simple backwards/sideways passes) and his shots are either wildy speculative/ambitious and miss by a mile or are weak and straight at the keeper. he's trying too hard to score and in doing so is being too selfish and his hurting his own game.

Apologies for I got it wrong, just couldn't understand how you got your view when it's completely different to what near enough everyone else sees.

Out of interest, who do you support and where you from?

as my little stats thing on the righthand side says: California, City & Dortmund.

phips wrote:for comparison's sake:

in the league this season Gundogan has a 90% pass accuracy with a avg distance of 14m. in that he supposedly plays only 0.5 key passes per match, which is 5th lowest on the team (outfield players only) behind Kompany, Danilo, Mangala, and Otamendi. Yaya, who has been criticized for slowing down play this season, has a higher pass accuracy and plays more key passes per match (0.7--small difference i know).

Mangala had an 84% pass accuracy last season with Valencia and those had an average distal of 21m. Last season Fernando had a pass accuracy of 88% with an avg distance of 16m.

So, two players who i believe have been consistently criticized for their passing abilities on this site both played longer passes than Gundogan. yes that was last season but it demonstrates that even those 2 players were more ambitious in their successful passing that Ilkay has done this season.

passing accuracy isn't the most important statistic. i know he hasn't played a lot this season but im not the one that brought up his statistic from this season so im just using them because they were made eligible in this discussion.

You downplay pass accuracy, but it is relevant and certainly a player further up the field has to be better at passing because of the reduced space afforded them. So a higher pass completion rate than a centrehalf certainly highlights the difference in ability.

And as far as the distance on their passes, swinging the ball sideways to the fullbacks or back to the keeper, something a centrehalf and a defensive midfielder would do, will give them more distance than an intricate pass on the edge of the opposition area.

Not sure what your arguing but those points are fundamentally flawed.

phips wrote:as my little stats thing on the righthand side says: California, City & Dortmund.

Ah, can't see them on my tablet. Who came first, City or Dortmund, just for clarification.

Beefymcfc wrote:

phips wrote:as my little stats thing on the righthand side says: California, City & Dortmund.

Ah, can't see them on my tablet. Who came first, City or Dortmund, just for clarification.

Fair ‘nuff.
City came first.

Slim wrote:You downplay pass accuracy, but it is relevant and certainly a player further up the field has to be better at passing because of the reduced space afforded them. So a higher pass completion rate than a centrehalf certainly highlights the difference in ability.

And as far as the distance on their passes, swinging the ball sideways to the fullbacks or back to the keeper, something a centrehalf and a defensive midfielder would do, will give them more distance than an intricate pass on the edge of the opposition area.

Not sure what your arguing but those points are fundamentally flawed.

Slim, im giving you a standing ovation in my mind. I was wondering if anyone on here was smart enough to pick out that exact flaw in my “argument”. Well done.

phips wrote:

Beefymcfc wrote:

phips wrote:as my little stats thing on the righthand side says: California, City & Dortmund.

Ah, can't see them on my tablet. Who came first, City or Dortmund, just for clarification.

Fair ‘nuff.
City came first.

Slim wrote:You downplay pass accuracy, but it is relevant and certainly a player further up the field has to be better at passing because of the reduced space afforded them. So a higher pass completion rate than a centrehalf certainly highlights the difference in ability.

And as far as the distance on their passes, swinging the ball sideways to the fullbacks or back to the keeper, something a centrehalf and a defensive midfielder would do, will give them more distance than an intricate pass on the edge of the opposition area.

Not sure what your arguing but those points are fundamentally flawed.

Slim, im giving you a standing ovation in my mind. I was wondering if anyone on here was smart enough to pick out that exact flaw in my “argument”. Well done.

PMSL, just testing the water with your pointless post then?

I take it back about you not being a troll, you quite obviously are after that ridiculous comment.

if you sincerely think that in a discussion each party only puts forth infallible points then i feel sorry for you.
ever watched a debate? ever prepared for one? what i should've done, but didnt care enough to do since this is only an internet forum after all, is come up with a counter to that point since i knew it was the downfall of my own argument.

that being said, Slim correctly pointed out the hole in my argument about passing distance in the comparison between defenders and midfielders but i think in doing so he also proved that passing accuracy isn't that great of an argument either as the City midfielders are much more likely to play sideways short passes thus drastically increasing their passing accuracy.

all of that being said, i still think Gundogan has been poor. i was listening to a Dortmund pod today and they were talking about how poor he was in his first season there and that he was widely considered a disappointment (not a failure--big difference) and that it took him about 9 months to get up to speed in Klopp's system. given how often he's been injured since moving to City this feels like roughly the same time frame.

phips wrote:if you sincerely think that in a discussion each party only puts forth infallible points then i feel sorry for you.
ever watched a debate? ever prepared for one? what i should've done, but didnt care enough to do since this is only an internet forum after all, is come up with a counter to that point since i knew it was the downfall of my own argument.

that being said, Slim correctly pointed out the hole in my argument about passing distance in the comparison between defenders and midfielders but i think in doing so he also proved that passing accuracy isn't that great of an argument either as the City midfielders are much more likely to play sideways short passes thus drastically increasing their passing accuracy.

all of that being said, i still think Gundogan has been poor. i was listening to a Dortmund pod today and they were talking about how poor he was in his first season there and that he was widely considered a disappointment (not a failure--big difference) and that it took him about 9 months to get up to speed in Klopp's system. given how often he's been injured since moving to City this feels like roughly the same time frame.

No, you're lying. You should have started walking after you missed the bus.
Instead, you're doing an MJ-style moonwalk super-swiftly towards the Grand Canyon here.

no, im not. point out the lie.

So in other words phips , you’re admitting to being a thick cunt?

phips, I'd like to wish you a very happy new year on here and expect the first part of it to be devoted to an extensive reply to your critics.

If I write a hard hitting, critical email or post, I like to leave them stew on it.

Nothing more annoying for them than knowing I don't even bother to read their angry rants.

More people should try it!

Hate stats, they can be so misleading about a players impact or influence on a game. Sometimes a player can do more vocally than physically........