FFP 2.0

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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Mark Garrett » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:00 am

carl_feedthegoat wrote:
Mark Garrett wrote:Every newspaper is running the same story that we will be banned from the Champions League for a season next year.

Embarassing for us if this turns out to be the case.


FFP is fucking embarrassing mate !!
We should be applauded for “allegedly” circumnavigating the corrupt fucking barrel of shit rules for this barrel of shit competition .

The fucking boos will be earth moving in the next cl game .


Lovely


I agree with you about FFP. However, it is still naive and embarassing that this has come to pass.

Also it is an unnecessary distraction away from the football not to mention it raises questions if any players would want to move on? I doubt they would but it raises a question mark.
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2009-10 League..................Pld 21 - W 11 - D 5 - L 5 - GF 40 - GA 18 - Pts 38...Finished 5th
2010-11 League..................Pld 38 - W 21 - D 8 - L 9 - GF 60 - GA 33 - Pts 71...Finished 3rd..FA Cup Winners
2011-12 League..................Pld 38 - W 28 - D 5 - L 5 - GF 93 - GA 29 - Pts 89...Finished 1st..League Champions
2012-13 League..................Pld 36 - W 22 - D 9 - L 5 - GF 62 - GA 31 - Pts 75...Finished 2nd

Domestic Cups record.........Pld 30 - W 18 - D 4 - L 8 - GF 63 - GA 36
European Cups record.........Pld 28 - W 13 - D 7 - L 8 - GF 43 - GA 29

Overall record at City......Pld 191 - W 113 - D 38 - L 40 - GF 361 - GA 176


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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:03 am

Still at the 'if' stage, nothing to see here.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:36 am

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Still at the 'if' stage, nothing to see here.


I 100% think the club will sue , if it goes further.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:41 am

carl_feedthegoat wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Still at the 'if' stage, nothing to see here.


I 100% think the club will sue , if it goes further.


I suspect you may well be right.

Tbh that quote from Ceferin sounds to me like he's just telling the journalists what they want to hear, he has to be seen to be taking this seriously, there's nothing really new in these latest articles.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby City64 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:15 pm

Pretty sure City and our owners could take UEFA down over anything FFP related .
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby bigblue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Good luck to UEFA in trying to convince the courts that it's legal to limit an owner's investment in their own business based on the past revenue of that business. It's a power grab by those currently making more money than the rest. Apply this to other industries and you'll see competition drop off a cliff.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby johnny crossan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:25 pm

Ceferin will soon be sufferin if he takes us on :lol:
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby PrezIke » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:12 pm

bigblue wrote:Good luck to UEFA in trying to convince the courts that it's legal to limit an owner's investment in their own business based on the past revenue of that business. It's a power grab by those currently making more money than the rest. Apply this to other industries and you'll see competition drop off a cliff.


Yet, they could focus on the intent to deceive, no?

That's what will be utilised, I gather.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby zuricity » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:07 pm

PrezIke wrote:
bigblue wrote:Good luck to UEFA in trying to convince the courts that it's legal to limit an owner's investment in their own business based on the past revenue of that business. It's a power grab by those currently making more money than the rest. Apply this to other industries and you'll see competition drop off a cliff.


Yet, they could focus on the intent to deceive, no?

That's what will be utilised, I gather.


They can't focus on anything. This is an Organisation , set up originally as the equivalent of a sports club. They have stepped way beyond their legal remit in any country they operate. Organised as a 'Charity' , which is a joke.

If the owner of the club decides to take these guys on , they will lose in a courtroom against him, in any country in the world.

He has enough money to break them to pieces with Lawyers and it would be the best thing that happened to football, getting rid of these hangers on.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Harry Dowd scored » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:19 pm

Has anybody seen this? I found it of interest.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkU3mtm1y ... hjxFsI9M8g
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby mr_nool » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:36 pm

Harry Dowd scored wrote:Has anybody seen this? I found it of interest.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkU3mtm1y ... hjxFsI9M8g


It's basically what Der Spiegel wrote, but slightly less tendentious. Still, using phrases like "Infantino bent over backwards to accomodate City" instead of "UEAF and City negotiated a del" doesn't sit well with me.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby South Stand Balti » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:17 pm

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Still at the 'if' stage, nothing to see here.

I think this is spot on. Nothing seems to have moved since the German comic DS published its gossip. We cannot be on the verge of a decision as City have had no contact as yet from Uefa. They can't investigate without asking us for info, neither can they punish us before allowing us to answer any allegations. Uefa may be looking at the DS evidence, but the only decision they can make, based on that, is whether to reopen investigations. Strangely, much of the DS stuff was already known. The "negotiating" of the original deal between us and Uefa was not a secret, for example. Uefa may decide to reopen the case but we are not even at that stage yet, unless anyone has an update?
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Mase » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Uefa can suck a dick. So can every German in the world, apart from Sanè
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Scatman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Mase wrote:Uefa can suck a dick. So can every German in the world, apart from Sanè


Does Ike Immel get a pass?
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Beefymcfc » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:15 pm

We'll be off to CAS to sort the short term and then file to the courts for the long term. UEFA aren't daft, they won't be trying to ban us anytime soon, but they will be under pressure from the old elite to do something. As we're not part of that old elite we will be on the side of the administrators who are being hounded by them to protect the elites trough, and we'll be making moves for others to side by us, and there'll be many to sign-up.

Fuck the old elite, times are a'changing.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby zuricity » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:16 pm

Scatman wrote:
Mase wrote:Uefa can suck a dick. So can every German in the world, apart from Sanè


Does Ike Immel get a pass?


I wouldn't pass to him , in exasperation he put his head in his hands the other week and dropped it.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Hutch's Shoulder » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:51 pm

zuricity wrote:
Scatman wrote:
Mase wrote:Uefa can suck a dick. So can every German in the world, apart from Sanè


Does Ike Immel get a pass?


I wouldn't pass to him , in exasperation he put his head in his hands the other week and dropped it.


Uwe is a sound German.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Mase » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:59 pm

Hutch's Shoulder wrote:
zuricity wrote:
Scatman wrote:
Mase wrote:Uefa can suck a dick. So can every German in the world, apart from Sanè


Does Ike Immel get a pass?


I wouldn't pass to him , in exasperation he put his head in his hands the other week and dropped it.


Uwe is a sound German.


Unless he comes out and admits his grandad bombed old Trafford he's dead to me.




I love him really.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:10 pm

UEFA DID shift the goalposts over Man City FFP punishment
Manchester City are likely to fight any fresh punishment over the Football Leaks allegations and this could be at the heart of their case


By Stuart Brennan
13:51, 6 DEC 2018
SPORT


UEFA DID move the goalposts when it came to Manchester City’s Financial Fair Play (FFP) calculations.

And that may explain why European football’s governing body backed off and came to an agreement with the Blues in 2014, rather than get involved in a protracted court battle.


It could also be a factor in whether UEFA decide to follow through on their claim this week that they are taking the Football Leaks allegations seriously.

The recent revelations about the way City circumvented UEFA’s FFP rules have led to calls for the Blues to be subjected to a fresh investigation.

UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin confirmed this week that his body were looking at the allegations, published in German newspaper Der Spiegel. He described it as “a concrete case”.


But UEFA have refused to reveal any further details, and City have remained quiet, other than to say the emails at the centre of the storm had been illegally obtained and that “the attempt to damage the club’s reputation is organised and clear.”


That has led to speculation that UEFA have known the content of the Football Leaks material all along – and so have no fresh basis to punish City.

The Blues were fined £49m and subjected to squad, wage and spending caps in 2014 after agreeing a “settlement” with UEFA when they were found guilty of a breach of the FFP rules.


At the time, City sources claimed they were unhappy as UEFA had moved the goalposts, but did not elaborate as they were talking to UEFA about a solution.

City fan Colin Savage has delved into the matter and found the “smoking gun” which shows that UEFA did indeed move the goalposts, if you will forgive the mixed metaphor.

It seems this was right at the heart of the FFP settlement between City and UEFA.

The “shifted goalposts” idea revolves around the way wages for players who were signed before 2010 – in other words, before the FFP rules had been revealed – was taken into consideration.

Clearly it would have been unfair to punish clubs for fulfilling their contractual obligations to pay players.



FIFA chief on City FFP deal
To help clubs with this, UEFA sent out a 'toolkit' in 2011 to help them factor in players’ wages, and allowing them a loss which exceeded the allowance in FFP, as long as it was solely down to those wages, and the club could show its financial position was improving.

At the crux of Savage’s argument is the fact that, in 2013, UEFA sent out a new toolkit which changed those conditions – and at that point it was too late for City to react.

They failed the FFP tests, partly due to this, and were prepared to go to court to defend their position.

The change in the toolkit would have formed part of their defence, along with City’s reasoning that FFP itself was anti-competitive and so contravened European law.

The threat of fighting a legal action which they were not certain to win seems to have curbed UEFA’s zeal, and they set about coming to a settlement with City.

This was described in some quarters as being a case of then-UEFA secretary-general Gianni Infantino striking a secret deal with the Blues. That was a stretch - such settlements were written into the very fabric of FFP.


City would not have taken expulsion from the Champions League lying down, but they reluctantly accepted the lesser punishments meted out.

Football finance expert Rob Wilson of Sheffield Hallam University has confirmed, after examining both toolkits, that UEFA’s change did make a difference, although he says that alone would not explain City’s breach.

“On face value the two toolkits do appear to move the goalposts somewhat,” said Wilson.

“The changes were fairly well documented at the time and, without being naive, all the clubs signed up to them. However, it would explain, in part, the alleged breach.

“I'm not sure I'd go so far to say that it was impossible for City to meet them.

“The changing of the goalposts, I'm sure, led UEFA to a more reasonable penalty. It's the other side to that particular coin.”


So it seems that while the toolkit issue was not entirely a “smoking gun” that proved UEFA had turned City over, as some fans believe, it did give the Blues cause for complaint and would no doubt have formed a central prop to any court case.

UEFA’s current stance is unknown. Ceferin’s words this week has been interpreted as an indication that they HAVE learned something new from the Football Leaks allegations.

But it is just as possible that his words were platitudes. Only time will tell.

City’s silence also means we do not know how they would react if UEFA did try to impose serious sanction, with some claiming that a Champions League ban is a possibility.

But, given their readiness to go to court four years ago, they are unlikely to take it lightly.

They would be likely to challenge the whole basis of FFP in court, claiming that its original purpose of stopping reckless owners from plunging clubs into damaging debt, has been perverted into a bid to protect the traditional European elite from wealthy, ambitious new owners.


They would also point out that UEFA made a play out of the fact that FFP was meant to help clubs with their finances, rather than punish them. The governing body would be hard-pressed to show how FFP has actually helped City, by restricting debt-free investment.

They would also point to the toolkit switch which contributed to City’s inability to meet FFP targets – and perhaps explains why they felt the need for the kind of financial shenanigans which have been claimed by Football Leaks.


City would also demand to see the evidence, which they claim comes from “hacked or stolen” emails.

It would be difficult for UEFA to defend a case based on materials which were illegally obtained, although the mystery man – known only as “John” - at the heart of Football Leaks says he has not hacked anyone.


At the very least, it would be hard for UEFA to base a case on the Football Leaks information, as long as the website refuses to reveal its sources.
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Re: FFP 2.0

Postby Beefymcfc » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:56 am

... “the attempt to damage the club’s reputation is organised and clear.”
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