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just red the Guardian paper headlines..This fuckin NONCE should and i hope for all his victims sake gets a full life term in solitary confinement and never see daylight again for a despicable life of torture and torment to so many people it's just beyond belief of what this bastard has got away with over a long period of time.SICK BASTARD.

Plain Speaking wrote:

frankswift wrote:

Plain Speaking wrote:I have a great deal of sympathy for the victims, but the club should look to properly highlight the likely enormous scale of the past problems across society, (as mr_nool has said).

No. "Yes, we did it, but to be fair to us, so did loads of other clubs." The statement might be true, but with the greatest of respect, PS, that would be the last thing a victim would want to read, and would be jumped upon by anyone wishing to sling mud at the club.

I think you may have misinterpreted my comment. It wasn't intended to excuse, or downplay our club's past actions or inactions, but simply to highlight the likely scale of the issue as a prelude to a proposed wide action plan, including supporting the victims.

I believe we need openness about the subject, not denial and sweeping things under the carpet, as has been done in many organisations in the past.

Mate, I didn't think you were proposing excuses or trying to downplay what happened in any way. My point is that while we are at the sharp end of this, we focus entirely on the solutions, particularly the ones you outlined. The best we can do would be for the club to extend its support to all victims, not just those with a connection to City - if that's what you meant then yes, that's exactly right.

But to add that it has happened elsewhere lays the club wide open - but now that the issue is taken seriously then it all should come out - a sports-wide Yewtree-like operation should be where the scale is assessed.

john68 wrote:

john@staustell wrote:I believe that human behaviour has not changed over the centuries, sadly, and agree that it's only now 'society' is getting a grip.

However in my lifetime a nonce has always been a nonce and treated as such and I don't think there's as much 'blind eye turning' as is made out. Incredulity, non-belief, yes, over the years - but don't children often not dare to tell, in case they get in trouble? I think this is particulary true of the Catholic Church over the centuries. Until lately who would have believed a child against a respected churchman?

Furthermore one of the best dealing methods is to block an event out, put it in the past. And there is something to be said for that as the best way of dealing, But these people need to be dealt with, so well done to those with the courage to rake through their bad memories and put the monster belatedly where he belongs.

Those are excellent points John.
I grew up up in a time when we were told 'A CHILD SHOULD BE SEEN BUT NOT HEARD'.
We were taught to respect our elders and those in authority. But with that also came a fear of those in authority or a fear of authority. Our parents, teachers, the police, our doctors, never made mistakes, they were always right and this was often brutally enforced by corporal punishment.

That in turn created a societal infrastructure where a 'DON'T ANSWER BACK' culture made it extremely difficult for a young child, to question authority or challenge those in authority over them.

Add to that in a football environment where young children are 'sold the dream'. Two victims I havse heard both said quite clearly that they dreamt of being footballers, both felt that they could attain that dream and both feared that, that dream would be taken from them had they told the truth.

Yes Noolie, I do believe that this sort of abuse was far more widespread within society than we may, until quite recently, have thought. Coupled with its adult version of bullying, in the workplace, by teachers, politicians, priests, the police and sadly even family members, it is certainly a societal problem that needs to be resolved.

I also believe that this must have been more widespread within football and hopefully now that the Bennell case has been resolved, other victims, as happened within the Operation Yew Tree case, will come forward.

Yes, I'm of that vintage. Thank Christ that kids are believed nowadays when they make accusations. And people do something about it. My younger brother had some learning issues and my parents paid for him to go to a prep school. One day - he was around nine at the time - he had been hit so badly (I believe it was because he had difficulty pronouncing the l's in "lollipop") his backside had a bruise the size and colour of a beetroot, but our GP would not report it because his child also went to that prep school and he didn't want to rock the boat.

Of course, false accusations have been made and will be made, but I hope that the tide is turning.

mr_nool wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Its not good is it Erik? I can only see this getting worse.

Sorry mate, poor choice of words. It's a very well-written and gripping article. It gave me a better understanding on the horrors of being a victim of abuse than what the first, more general article did.

And yes, I think it will get a lot worse from a club perspective. T

I havent seen it mentioned in the thread, but I read recently that City's internal investigation around Bennell has highlighted another individual who was bang at it, but the individual concerned has died so that will probably fizzle out.It does highlight though that it probably pervaded many clubs back in the day, and who knows, no reason it may not be still happening

I watched the program on Ch4 last night and the similarities between the catholic church scandal here in Ireland and this really struck me.

It is very true what a lot of you are saying above. It was a different time and a different attitude.... maybe?
Our parents generation turned a blind eye to rumour and would not believe, because of the reverance and power that the Church held.
Football in Britain was as big a religion and probably held as much sway as the religious institution did in Ireland.
Bennell was moved on from City, whether he was directly employed or not, without adequate explanation. he went to Crewe where he carried on as before.
This is the same behaviour that went on in different diocese up and down the country over here, and worse as well. Many of the offending priests were was inflicted on poor African kids or South American, or anywhere else they could be sent.

Bennell went over to America and abused over there. He was first convicted over there.
The Catholic church scandal first broke over there before any revelations were made in Europe let alone Ireland.

Complaints were made all the way up to the FA, but these were just buried. Same in the Church.

The taunts of Bennel's Bum Boys etc., are the exact same taunts I used to hear about some of the kids in the Artane Boys Band, in the area I grew up.
I can remember older kids from the reform school staying with local families before being placed into employment when they left the school. They would be the same age as my older brother.
They would tell stories of what went on with the Christian Brothers and when it got back to my mother, her response was to tell us not to play with those kids and don't listen to that gossip.
The school stopped being a reform school in 1969 and when I went there some of these same Christian Brothers were still there.
Rumours about previous activites there, went on for decades, before one of the former students /inmates wrote a book about it and spilled the beans.

What I saw in the Bennell case last night is an institution in England that was held in such reverance, certainly amongst a working class community.
It was a dream not just for the kid to make it in football, but also for the parent and they readily handed over their child to stay with people who had full control over them.
It doesn't really bear thinking about nowadays. You couldn't be in such a position withot proper vetting.

But this has all the hallmarks of the same widespread knowledge being out in the community but both the community, the local team and the goerning bodies all maintaining the staus quo by turning a blind eye. I think this will prove to be widespread and not just something that happened in Manchester.

The FA are ultimately culpable, but in my opinion, City's current management should leave no stone unturned and not bury it under the sins of aprevious regime.

This has nothing to do with Cityand everything to do with the victims. What damage the truth does to City is inconsequential.

As I said earlier. Football is or at least was a religion.

The Catholic Church died a death in this country as a result of decades and decades of hiding the truth and putting obstacles in the way of anyone trying to find it.
The same will happen with football if it thinks it is bigger than the rights of innocent children in the 70's.
The FA should be to the fore of finding the full extent of this and to hell with the cost.

frankswift wrote:

john68 wrote:

john@staustell wrote:I believe that human behaviour has not changed over the centuries, sadly, and agree that it's only now 'society' is getting a grip.

However in my lifetime a nonce has always been a nonce and treated as such and I don't think there's as much 'blind eye turning' as is made out. Incredulity, non-belief, yes, over the years - but don't children often not dare to tell, in case they get in trouble? I think this is particulary true of the Catholic Church over the centuries. Until lately who would have believed a child against a respected churchman?

Furthermore one of the best dealing methods is to block an event out, put it in the past. And there is something to be said for that as the best way of dealing, But these people need to be dealt with, so well done to those with the courage to rake through their bad memories and put the monster belatedly where he belongs.

Those are excellent points John.
I grew up up in a time when we were told 'A CHILD SHOULD BE SEEN BUT NOT HEARD'.
We were taught to respect our elders and those in authority. But with that also came a fear of those in authority or a fear of authority. Our parents, teachers, the police, our doctors, never made mistakes, they were always right and this was often brutally enforced by corporal punishment.

That in turn created a societal infrastructure where a 'DON'T ANSWER BACK' culture made it extremely difficult for a young child, to question authority or challenge those in authority over them.

Add to that in a football environment where young children are 'sold the dream'. Two victims I havse heard both said quite clearly that they dreamt of being footballers, both felt that they could attain that dream and both feared that, that dream would be taken from them had they told the truth.

Yes Noolie, I do believe that this sort of abuse was far more widespread within society than we may, until quite recently, have thought. Coupled with its adult version of bullying, in the workplace, by teachers, politicians, priests, the police and sadly even family members, it is certainly a societal problem that needs to be resolved.

I also believe that this must have been more widespread within football and hopefully now that the Bennell case has been resolved, other victims, as happened within the Operation Yew Tree case, will come forward.

Yes, I'm of that vintage. Thank Christ that kids are believed nowadays when they make accusations. And people do something about it. My younger brother had some learning issues and my parents paid for him to go to a prep school. One day - he was around nine at the time - he had been hit so badly (I believe it was because he had difficulty pronouncing the l's in "lollipop") his backside had a bruise the size and colour of a beetroot, but our GP would not report it because his child also went to that prep school and he didn't want to rock the boat.

Of course, false accusations have been made and will be made, but I hope that the tide is turning.

I think all of us of a certain age (all us old buggers) aren't really surprised by any of this.
It's got so many of the hallmarks of Saville, the fact that Bennell was seen by everyone as someone who could do no wrong, and the "Bennell's bumboy"
comments are straight out of the 70/80's, anyone challenging them in that era would have been looked on as odd.
And I do think it was a lot more widespread in football, and in society in general then.

Obviously we need to investigate and fix anything in our court and support the victims. But if anyone tries to use it as a stick to beat City in particular, then they had better watch out, because I suspect there will have been many such predators taking advantage if football's loose governance.

iwasthere2012 wrote:I watched the program on Ch4 last night and the similarities between the catholic church scandal here in Ireland and this really struck me.

It is very true what a lot of you are saying above. It was a different time and a different attitude.... maybe?
Our parents generation turned a blind eye to rumour and would not believe, because of the reverance and power that the Church held.
Football in Britain was as big a religion and probably held as much sway as the religious institution did in Ireland.
Bennell was moved on from City, whether he was directly employed or not, without adequate explanation. he went to Crewe where he carried on as before.
This is the same behaviour that went on in different diocese up and down the country over here, and worse as well. Many of the offending priests were was inflicted on poor African kids or South American, or anywhere else they could be sent.

Bennell went over to America and abused over there. He was first convicted over there.
The Catholic church scandal first broke over there before any revelations were made in Europe let alone Ireland.

Complaints were made all the way up to the FA, but these were just buried. Same in the Church.

The taunts of Bennel's Bum Boys etc., are the exact same taunts I used to hear about some of the kids in the Artane Boys Band, in the area I grew up.
I can remember older kids from the reform school staying with local families before being placed into employment when they left the school. They would be the same age as my older brother.
They would tell stories of what went on with the Christian Brothers and when it got back to my mother, her response was to tell us not to play with those kids and don't listen to that gossip.
The school stopped being a reform school in 1969 and when I went there some of these same Christian Brothers were still there.
Rumours about previous activites there, went on for decades, before one of the former students /inmates wrote a book about it and spilled the beans.

What I saw in the Bennell case last night is an institution in England that was held in such reverance, certainly amongst a working class community.
It was a dream not just for the kid to make it in football, but also for the parent and they readily handed over their child to stay with people who had full control over them.
It doesn't really bear thinking about nowadays. You couldn't be in such a position withot proper vetting.

But this has all the hallmarks of the same widespread knowledge being out in the community but both the community, the local team and the goerning bodies all maintaining the staus quo by turning a blind eye. I think this will prove to be widespread and not just something that happened in Manchester.

The FA are ultimately culpable, but in my opinion, City's current management should leave no stone unturned and not bury it under the sins of aprevious regime.

This has nothing to do with Cityand everything to do with the victims. What damage the truth does to City is inconsequential.

As I said earlier. Football is or at least was a religion.

The Catholic Church died a death in this country as a result of decades and decades of hiding the truth and putting obstacles in the way of anyone trying to find it.
The same will happen with football if it thinks it is bigger than the rights of innocent children in the 70's.
The FA should be to the fore of finding the full extent of this and to hell with the cost.

That's a very eloquent and good post, mate!

I just dont see what the fuck it has to do with our club now ? The guilty individuals need to be hunted down and castrated- obviously - but as far as Im concerned, WTF has it got to do with our club today ?

For a club with no history, I have a feeling this situation will be milked.

carl_feedthegoat wrote:I just dont see what the fuck it has to do with our club now ? The guilty individuals need to be hunted down and castrated- obviously - but as far as Im concerned, WTF has it got to do with our club today ?

seriously?!

carl_feedthegoat wrote:I just dont see what the fuck it has to do with our club now ? The guilty individuals need to be hunted down and castrated- obviously - but as far as Im concerned, WTF has it got to do with our club today ?

We don’t know Carl. But we sure as hell should find out the extent of what went on and ensure it can’t go on today.

As I said it has nothing to do with City and everything to do with the victim.

It’s football’s problem I suspect and the governing bodies should hide nothing.

It’s funny how Theresa May “lost” all the data and research relating to governmental child abuse, I’m glad the awful crimes Bennell has committed have been exposed and I hope he gets an extremely uncomfortable period in jail along with others that may come to light. I cannot help but feel though that this episode has reached a successful conclusion to keep the sniffer dogs away from governmental sordid goings on. Jill Dando was assassinated for what she knew about the institutional child abuse in high places, but hey ho let’s blame football...part of it yes, but nowhere near the whole story!!!

Nigels Tackle wrote:

carl_feedthegoat wrote:I just dont see what the fuck it has to do with our club now ? The guilty individuals need to be hunted down and castrated- obviously - but as far as Im concerned, WTF has it got to do with our club today ?

seriously?!

Any cover up aside, he's dead right. Wherever there are kids, there are predators lurking and it has ALWAYS been that way. Thankfully, we're in an age now where organisations work hard to eradicate the possibility of predators gaining access to children.
That wasn't the case back then and it's absolutely tragic that thousands of children suffered because of it.

Like every other company who ever housed a paedo, we have to accept rresponsibility for letting them in in the first place and apologise and compensate accordingly.

But this isn't a Manchester City thing.

Sparklehorse wrote:It’s funny how Theresa May “lost” all the data and research relating to governmental child abuse, I’m glad the awful crimes Bennell has committed have been exposed and I hope he gets an extremely uncomfortable period in jail along with others that may come to light. I cannot help but feel though that this episode has reached a successful conclusion to keep the sniffer dogs away from governmental sordid goings on. Jill Dando was assassinated for what she knew about the institutional child abuse in high places, but hey ho let’s blame football...part of it yes, but nowhere near the whole story!!!

How many cunts from the BBC, that turned a blind eye to the sickos , are still out there and have not been charged ?

Sparklehorse wrote:It’s funny how Theresa May “lost” all the data and research relating to governmental child abuse, I’m glad the awful crimes Bennell has committed have been exposed and I hope he gets an extremely uncomfortable period in jail along with others that may come to light. I cannot help but feel though that this episode has reached a successful conclusion to keep the sniffer dogs away from governmental sordid goings on. Jill Dando was assassinated for what she knew about the institutional child abuse in high places, but hey ho let’s blame football...part of it yes, but nowhere near the whole story!!!

I agree that it’s a broader society issue.
But just as the government should ensure it’s house is in order, so should football.
There are kids as young as 7 if I’m not mistaken, being taken on by Premiersjip teams. Could have that wrong, but the point is it is one of those pass times that is high risk if not governed properly.

I know here in Ireland parents can’t even be on the bank to help with the swimming/waterpolo club I’m associated with for U16’s, without having been vetted through Swim Ireland which is the ultimate governing body, for waterpolo.

The same goes for coaching in amateur football. It’s actually seems totally over the top at times. But at least the safety of kids is put first.

Do we have to compensate? Does anyone know the legalities? It wasn’t City Group who were the owners so are you responsible for previous owners?

We might compensate as a gesture and I was pleased to see we were taking the investigation seriously - unlike Crewe who are just saying some unnamed source told them not to investigate hmm and denied any knowledge of what went on.

I do hope no stone is not turned no matter how awful what is found underneath

31 years. Hopefully he will die in prison

carl_feedthegoat wrote:I just dont see what the fuck it has to do with our club now ? The guilty individuals need to be hunted down and castrated- obviously - but as far as Im concerned, WTF has it got to do with our club today ?

I think it is pretty basic really, the owners/ management today are the present custodians and it is not their fault, however the club is an institution and is the same club that this happened at. City need to understand how it was allowed to happen and if anyone turned a blind eye. But perhaps more importantly MCFC needs to take responsibility for itself and 'its people', the current management are simply obliged to do the institutions bidding.

I think the owners have shown they do things to the utmost ( remember the help businesses got who had to be relocated from the academy site - amazing ), they are likely to deal with this in a way that will be the benchmark for dealing with such issues and trauma.

nottsblue wrote:31 years. Hopefully he will die in prison

I read somewhere he was in remission from cancer, so the signs are good.