VAR

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Re: VAR

Postby PrezIke » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:26 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... tenham-var

Wilson I believe is amongst those that hates us, and you can read it in here, although also a few fair questions points (other than of course the last paragraph):

VAR, it turns out, far from being some neutral all-seeing eye, a benevolent Big Brother visiting justice upon the world, has plunged the game into epistemological crisis. What is handball? If players can move up to 15cm between frames, how can offsides be given to an accuracy of millimetre? What is “clear and obvious” and could something be obvious but not clear? What level of error are we prepared to accept so claims of accuracy don’t make us uncomfortable? And is it really right that there’s strict liability for a ball brushing a player’s arm but not for one player barging another in the back?

But the disallowing of Gabriel Jesus’s apparent winner was more than just another VAR call; it was a decision locked in such regress of ironies it felt like football was almost wilfully exercising its mischievous streak. Aymeric Laporte did handle the ball and as the law now stands, any contact with the arm in the buildup to a goal is an offence. By the law, the decision was correct, just as it was correct that Leander Dendoncker’s goal against Leicester last week was ruled out.

But minds inevitably go back to that quarter-final last year and the vital goal Fernando Llorente scored for Spurs via a deflection off his arm. Under the law as it now stands, that would have been ruled out. Raheem Sterling, of course, then had an injury-time goal ruled out for offside; had VAR been operational the previous season, the goal City had chalked off for offside shortly before half-time in the second leg of the quarter-final tie against Liverpool would have stood. City’s misfortune has been to keep finding themselves a year behind the interpretation.

It’s coincidence of course, and certainly not the conspiracy many City fans leaving the Etihad seemed to want to claim but still, it’s hard not to appreciate the irony VAR, ostensibly a force for order and consistency in football, should, even though it’s likely to be temporary, be playing such a central role in undermining Guardiola’s quest for order. Football, even now, will have its sport.
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Re: VAR

Postby PrezIke » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:34 pm

I will admit I was and still have reasons to be a proponent of VAR, but I can also see the problems it causes to this sport, in particular.

In almost all other sports scoring is FAR more likely to occur, so if VAR or "Instant Replay" takes it away it means less.

In the case of the Jesus goal taken away, the problem arguably worse than VAR is, as they said on MOTD, the new handball rule.

However, we also have a HUGE problem of inconsistency with VAR being applied. Everyone on MOTD thought that Rodri earned a pen, and they said they felt that way watching in real time. What happened there? I'd really like to know.

I feel like that was a MASSIVE example of it being applied wrong or inconsistently. The shirt pull on Laporte's arm should also have been noted either as something to say that led to him possibly hitting the ball with his arm, or was a pen in itself. Watching it in real time again the last time I did I didn't see the shirt pull, but you can clearly see a bit of a tug at it (I can't find the video clip):

https://twitter.com/slbsn/status/116279 ... 24/photo/1
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Re: VAR

Postby PrezIke » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Watch on youtube.com


So wild to think Neville and Carrigher are also backing us for the pen Rodri should have earned, and how this is a huge problem of consistency.

Neville is thinking just what I was in that the VAR ref seems afraid to award a pen for contact, (also see the pull on Laporte's shirt as before) and what I have to say is then compare that to the lightest of inadvertent touches of an attackers arm or hand (that of course with a ball coming in at pace will deflect far away) that VAR will punish the attacker. That is a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, and yet sadly won't until next season, if ever.

I think it HAS to be CLEAR AND OBVIOUS that it DIRECTLY and immediately led to a goal.

Jesus still had plenty of work to do before scoring, which I suspect was his beef and for very good reason, as he didn't hit it one time.

Llorente's goal came from directly hitting his hand. That HAS to be a difference than a deflection that sends a ball to an attacker who then has to dribble inside past defenders and shoot.
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Re: VAR

Postby PrezIke » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:31 pm

VAR needs to be used more sparsely and carefully.

I think the idea of giving managers a limited number challenges could help prevent it from happening every single goal and less likely to constantly undermine the free flowing nature of the sport or the excitement of a winning goal.

The idea of giving managers a limited number challenges could help prevent it from happening every single goal, offsides, pen ?, red card/yellow card, etc.
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Re: VAR

Postby budfox » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:00 pm

PrezIke wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/18/pep-guardiola-manchester-city-tottenham-var

Wilson I believe is amongst those that hates us, and you can read it in here, although also a few fair questions points (other than of course the last paragraph):

What is handball? If players can move up to 15cm between frames, how can offsides be given to an accuracy of millimetre?


Makes me pleased to read a sports journalist saying the exact same thing I wrote on this forum last week and before Andy Gray said it too.
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Re: VAR

Postby PeterParker » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:10 am

budfox wrote:
PrezIke wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/18/pep-guardiola-manchester-city-tottenham-var

Wilson I believe is amongst those that hates us, and you can read it in here, although also a few fair questions points (other than of course the last paragraph):

What is handball? If players can move up to 15cm between frames, how can offsides be given to an accuracy of millimetre?


Makes me pleased to read a sports journalist saying the exact same thing I wrote on this forum last week and before Andy Gray said it too.


I think Andy Gray might be Dazby.
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Re: VAR

Postby sheblue » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:07 am

Dont bother celebrating goals anymore, no point. Very difficult thing to do, but that's the way its going to go eventually.
Forget about the fans just have a TV / Technology spectacle like that FIFA game shit the kids play. Fill the stadiums with robots and programe them to clap when VAR tells them they can. The joy, elation and emotion of a goal is dead with VAR.
Were going to loose more than were going to gain.
The game will go like snooker.
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Re: VAR

Postby carolina-blue » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:27 am

sheblue wrote:Dont bother celebrating goals anymore, no point. Very difficult thing to do, but that's the way its going to go eventually.
Forget about the fans just have a TV / Technology spectacle like that FIFA game shit the kids play. Fill the stadiums with robots and programe them to clap when VAR tells them they can. The joy, elation and emotion of a goal is dead with VAR.
Were going to loose more than were going to gain.
The game will go like snooker.



E Mail from a friend of mine she is a diehard ,
Home and away .

“It’s awful for the fans in the stadium
No idea what is happening
IT JUST FILLS ME WITH DREAD EVERY-TIME
WE SCORE A GOAL “

How fuckin sad is that
VAR. It’s bolX
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Re: VAR

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:30 am

If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really dont think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.
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Re: VAR

Postby Plain Speaking » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:12 pm

I saw this comment on the BBC
"I think the rule has been incorrectly applied. The goal has to be "scored or created with the use of the hand or arm". The brushing of the arm did not create the goal, so no offence. "
Regardless all those saying it was the "right decision" I am sure that sort of incident was not in mind when the new rule was drafted.

Personally I think the new rule needs clarification to get to the original purpose:
If the actual goalscorer used his hand or arm to score a goal, then no problem - the goal should be disallowed. However, If it contacted a separate player earlier in the attack and this wouldn't be a free kick outside the area the goal should stand.
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Re: VAR

Postby Beefymcfc » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:04 pm

Plain Speaking wrote:I saw this comment on the BBC
"I think the rule has been incorrectly applied. The goal has to be "scored or created with the use of the hand or arm". The brushing of the arm did not create the goal, so no offence. "
Regardless all those saying it was the "right decision" I am sure that sort of incident was not in mind when the new rule was drafted.

Personally I think the new rule needs clarification to get to the original purpose:
If the actual goalscorer used his hand or arm to score a goal, then no problem - the goal should be disallowed. However, If it contacted a separate player earlier in the attack and this wouldn't be a free kick outside the area the goal should stand.

The comment is correct and it's an extra layer of interpretation that has been applied. The new rule has come into effect to stop the Boly or Llorente incidents from last season (even though the rule was already in place for the Llorente incident), not for what happened on Saturday. Nowhere does it day that a goal is disallowed for that incident and that is why there is so much talk of the ridiculous decision by all those within the football spectrum. This was not communicated to the clubs or media during the consultations.

The actual rule basically states that if a player gains possession of the ball after hitting the arm/hand then it will be denied. Lapprte didn't gain possession so therefore the goal should have stood.

For me, and I don't mind saying so, was that they were directed to keep the game as close as possible. As simple as that.
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Re: VAR

Postby Beefymcfc » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:10 pm

One consequence of VAR and how the match going fan hasn't got the foggiest what's going on is that the pleasure of the game has now gone out of the window leading to a number of fans looking to give it up and watch it on TV instead.

By accident or design it means that the TV companies now get a subscription. £700 out of the clubs pocket and into Sky and BTs, it's the TV companies that are the winner.
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Re: VAR

Postby ross.mcfc » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:22 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.
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Re: VAR

Postby Mase » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:41 pm

ross.mcfc wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.


Comparing a linesman putting his flag up for one goal to every goal being checked by someone we don't know about that clearly doesn't know or understand the rule change?
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Re: VAR

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:44 pm

Mase wrote:
ross.mcfc wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.


Comparing a linesman putting his flag up for one goal to every goal being checked by someone we don't know about that clearly doesn't know or understand the rule change?


I also wasn't aware of a linesman taking 2 minutes to put his flag up.
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Re: VAR

Postby Mase » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:15 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:
Mase wrote:
ross.mcfc wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.


Comparing a linesman putting his flag up for one goal to every goal being checked by someone we don't know about that clearly doesn't know or understand the rule change?


I also wasn't aware of a linesman taking 2 minutes to put his flag up.


Linesman puts his flag up and it's offside. There an then. You don't celebrate like fuck for five mins for then the ref to ask VAR to review it for another 2 mins, all the time you sat in the stadium not having a clue what's going on, then they interpret the rule wrong and disallow the goal.
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Re: VAR

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:23 pm

Mase wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:
Mase wrote:
ross.mcfc wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.


Comparing a linesman putting his flag up for one goal to every goal being checked by someone we don't know about that clearly doesn't know or understand the rule change?


I also wasn't aware of a linesman taking 2 minutes to put his flag up.


Linesman puts his flag up and it's offside. There an then. You don't celebrate like fuck for five mins for then the ref to ask VAR to review it for another 2 mins, all the time you sat in the stadium not having a clue what's going on, then they interpret the rule wrong and disallow the goal.



I know mate...that comment was for Ross who does not know what all the fuss is about.
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Re: VAR

Postby Bluemoon4610 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 pm

Think this may have been posted before but it's worth another view of the amended rules from IFAB. I cannot see any infringement of these rules in our disallowed goal on Saturday, so has anyone seen/heard any "official" reason from PL/PGMOL? Has the club asked for an explanation? If PL are applying their own interpretation of these new laws, the only reason I can think of for this is to manipulate results.
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Re: VAR

Postby Beefymcfc » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 pm

Bluemoon4610 wrote:Think this may have been posted before but it's worth another view of the amended rules from IFAB. I cannot see any infringement of these rules in our disallowed goal on Saturday, so has anyone seen/heard any "official" reason from PL/PGMOL? Has the club asked for an explanation? If PL are applying their own interpretation of these new laws, the only reason I can think of for this is to manipulate results.

Mentioned it earlier. The reason it's such a big issue is because nobody was informed of this type of scenario, not the clubs nor the media. It isn't layed down in the rules and by the letter of the law the goal should've stood.
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Re: VAR

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:00 pm

ross.mcfc wrote:
carl_feedthegoat wrote:If VAR stops match going folk actually going to matches then it needs to have a complete overhaul - this could be the death of filling stadiums up and that will be catastrophic.

I really don't think the powers that be have thought this one through enough.


- 11am kick-offs on a Sunday Morning.
- Games chopped and changed at the will on the TV companies, leaving thousands out of pocket.
- Completely sterile stadiums
- £120 quid for a ticket.

But VAR is the hill people are going to die on?

For 20 years now, the majority of people wanted video-assisted technology, now after two games, they want it scrapped. I'm still raging about Saturday but it's all a bit hysterical now. The "cant celebrate" mob clearly have never been to a game been to an away game where a linesman has bottled it and put up a late flag. Been at a game where a linesman and ref have had a long chat before ruling out a City goal nor been to a game to know the agony of clearly wrong offside decision (CL QF against Pool anyone).

Saturday fucking sucked but the law was at fault, not VAR.


I never wanted VAR and I'm not sure a majority did.
And it's not just two games, we witnessed a few times last season.
I haven't been to a game where VAR has been in operation where it has enhanced the match. I can also point to several instances where it has failed to clear up what happened and given a feeling of fairness.
The penalties in Gelsenkirchen, the reviews in the return leg, the West Ham debacle, the disallowed winner v Spurs, the handball for Spurs goal, this weekend's effort, even in the Burton game they failed to give a penalty for a blatant foul on Jesus.
It solves nothing but costs a lot. Shite!
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