When it matters, he can not deliver!

[The Man In Blue]

You don't need to follow football elsewhere to know that Mourinho will not go to a club that hasn't had success for so long. He likes to take over at big successful clubs who may have dipped a bit recently.

Eh? So Chelsea not winning the title for fifty years is 'dipping a bit'? Are you on a wind up?

[King Kev]

For fucks sake..any fucking article form that paper that DOESN'T FIT WITH ONES AGENDA is bullshit is it !!! It is common fuckign knowledge that Mourhino is not happy where he is and it is also common knowledge that he misses managing in England.

I fucking hate it when someone knocks a tabloid over a story that they dont like so diss it as nonsense....there are many storied in SPain itself that claim Mourinho wants out.

I don't doubt for 1 minute that Jose is unhappy where he is or that he would consider coming back to England.

I think we both know that the clubs he is being linked with are pure guess work and speculation.

Not sure what you mean about dismissing articles that don't fit my agenda, I have never made any secret of the fact that the Sun isn't worth wiping my arse on and I never believe a word they say. I thought most people felt the same.

[King Kev]

You don't need to follow football elsewhere to know that Mourinho will not go to a club that hasn't had success for so long. He likes to take over at big successful clubs who may have dipped a bit recently.

Eh? So Chelsea not winning the title for fifty years is 'dipping a bit'? Are you on a wind up?

I have already addressed this point (complete with a list of trophies won by Vialli) earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure who introduced Winning The Title as criteria for success, it certainly wasn't me.

[Blue Since 76]

You don't need to follow football elsewhere to know that Mourinho will not go to a club that hasn't had success for so long. He likes to take over at big successful clubs who may have dipped a bit recently.

Eh? So Chelsea not winning the title for fifty years is 'dipping a bit'? Are you on a wind up?

I have already addressed this point (complete with a list of trophies won by Vialli) earlier in the thread.

The trophies Chelsea had won were meaningless in terms of being a big team in Europe. They needed to win the domestic league and get into the Champions League. Ranieri managed one of those and Mourinho the other. If they'd stuck with Mourinho, they may have won the CL too, although whether he could have built a side good enough is debatable. What Mourinho is good at, probably the best, is taking someone else's side, including Mancini's at Inter, tweaking it and making it perform.

Whether the sun was making stuff up or not, I'd be surprised to see Mourinho at Real next season - they hate him and he seems to hate them. If he wins the league and/or CL, he can resign, knowing that he's proved himself in yet another country. If he loses, they'll sack him.

Either way, I suspect he'll be available in summer. If we're in the CL, I see no reason why he wouldn't come - he's got most of a very good side already in place and would have plenty of cash to upgrade where necessary. From his ego point of view, we're a side who hasn't won the league in years, may not have won a trophy in 35 (depending on how things go in the next few months). If he won the Carling Cup, we'd rename a stand after him. If he won the title, we'd probably rename the club.

It would therefore come down to who else offered him a job. Abramovich doesn't look like the sort of man who admits to making a mistake, especially if it means handing power to Jose. His style wouldn't fit Arsenal. Liverpool will probably stick with Kenny. There is therefore a good chance he will end up in Manchester. He's certainly got the ego to think he could take over from taggart and be even more successful. The only sticking point in that is that he'd want a lot of money to rebuild that squad and he wouldn't be daft enough to try it without it. If the rags don't find the cash, he may only have one team in England available anyway.

As for Mancini? Well, if we were offered the chance to swap AJ for Messi or Dzeko for Villa, would we take it? Of course we would. Why should the manager be above that, regardless of how well anyone thinks he's doing.

[carl_feedthegoat]

For fucks sake..any fucking article form that paper that DOESN'T FIT WITH ONES AGENDA is bullshit is it !!! It is common fuckign knowledge that Mourhino is not happy where he is and it is also common knowledge that he misses managing in England.

I fucking hate it when someone knocks a tabloid over a story that they dont like so diss it as nonsense....there are many storied in SPain itself that claim Mourinho wants out.

I don't doubt for 1 minute that Jose is unhappy where he is or that he would consider coming back to England.

I think we both know that the clubs he is being linked with are pure guess work and speculation.

Not sure what you mean about dismissing articles that don't fit my agenda, I have never made any secret of the fact that the Sun isn't worth wiping my arse on and I never believe a word they say. I thought most people felt the same.

The sun like most papers exaggerate any article for sensationalism as is par the course for any fucking paper.....but its not just the Sun that came with this story....Spain is rife with suspicions that he will leave and even MOURINHO has been quoted as saying he wants to come back to the prem !!!!...

my point being you said why would he come to us..get into the real world.......I think its wiser to find out from other sources before you make a statement like you did.

[john68]

At last, we are getting a decent standard of debate about this, instead of some of the shite knee jerk stuff we got immediately after the Kiev game. We can be grateful for that at least....and thanks for the kind words Doug..I'll ignore the age dig...:-)

STABILITY
Is the most important factor and no team has sustained success without it. Madrid, Chelsea and even the old Liverpool changed managers but their sustained success was after they and their teams had become established at the top over years and the direction of the club hard wired. It was when Souness changed everything at Liverpool that they failed. Chelsea were already at the top before Abramovich arrived, they had chucked millions at the jog already and were £130M in debt.
City are nowhere near there yet but understand the problem. That was why Marwood was brought in. Putting Hughes ans mancini aside for a moment, City chanded our direction and policy in the middle of Hughes's tenure (around Xmas) . Marwood was employed, buying was speeded up and a new direction policy instigated to ensure we would meet the fair play rules. That was when all our major changes took place and what ultimately got Hughes sacked.

SHORT TERM V LONG TERM
Our biggest problem is demanding immediate success, whilst trying to develop something in the long term that can be sustained. Short term is easier. Buy established older and experienced players who can do a short term job (Fowler, Hamman, McManaman). Lobger term means patience. It means seeing talent and waiting until it develops and reaches it's potential...Dzeko, Micah, Hart, Balotelli). Short term and long term are not easy bedmates, they work against each other.

OUR SQUAD
I think many of us (me included) can sometimes be a bit deluded and over estimate the quality of our squad. Ask the question; "Which players we have now could win us the "Champions League" or are truly World class?". not that many at the moment, though quite a few if given the time and the right nurturing. Tevez, Silva, Kompany, De Jong are probably already there. Hart, Boateng, Micah, (A) Johnson, Balotelli, Dzeko, are possibles but they will take time to get there. You can make your own minds up regarding ther likes of Barry, Milner, Lescott, Kolarov, Yaya and the rest of our squad. We are still a very long way off the likes of Barca...and that is our long term goal.

CONCLUSION
I leave you draw your own....But that Slim, is why I remain on top of the trenches shouting "Hold the Line" Mate. We are not yet strong enough to make the charge but the troops will become more battle hardened and reinforcements will arrive and we will charge mate...Trust me Slim, WE WILL.

[carl_feedthegoat]

We require immediate success because the Financial fair play comes into effect - if it wasn't for this then maybe...just maybe we could persist with a manager that cannot deliver this season and give him next season but only if we see a glaringly obvious bright light at the end of the tunnel for the remainder of this season.

Up till now...we are form wise well off the pace....I do realize this can change over the next few games...but fuck me...it has to change quite dramatically.

[Blue Since 76]

At last, we are getting a decent standard of debate about this, instead of some of the shite knee jerk stuff we got immediately after the Kiev game. We can be grateful for that at least....and thanks for the kind words Doug..I'll ignore the age dig...:-)

STABILITY
Is the most important factor and no team has sustained success without it. Madrid, Chelsea and even the old Liverpool changed managers but their sustained success was after they and their teams had become established at the top over years and the direction of the club hard wired. It was when Souness changed everything at Liverpool that they failed. Chelsea were already at the top before Abramovich arrived, they had chucked millions at the jog already and were £130M in debt.
City are nowhere near there yet but understand the problem. That was why Marwood was brought in. Putting Hughes ans mancini aside for a moment, City chanded our direction and policy in the middle of Hughes's tenure (around Xmas) . Marwood was employed, buying was speeded up and a new direction policy instigated to ensure we would meet the fair play rules. That was when all our major changes took place and what ultimately got Hughes sacked.

SHORT TERM V LONG TERM
Our biggest problem is demanding immediate success, whilst trying to develop something in the long term that can be sustained. Short term is easier. Buy established older and experienced players who can do a short term job (Fowler, Hamman, McManaman). Lobger term means patience. It means seeing talent and waiting until it develops and reaches it's potential...Dzeko, Micah, Hart, Balotelli). Short term and long term are not easy bedmates, they work against each other.

OUR SQUAD
I think many of us (me included) can sometimes be a bit deluded and over estimate the quality of our squad. Ask the question; "Which players we have now could win us the "Champions League" or are truly World class?". not that many at the moment, though quite a few if given the time and the right nurturing. Tevez, Silva, Kompany, De Jong are probably already there. Hart, Boateng, Micah, (A) Johnson, Balotelli, Dzeko, are possibles but they will take time to get there. You can make your own minds up regarding ther likes of Barry, Milner, Lescott, Kolarov, Yaya and the rest of our squad. We are still a very long way off the likes of Barca...and that is our long term goal.

CONCLUSION
I leave you draw your own....But that Slim, is why I remain on top of the trenches shouting "Hold the Line" Mate. We are not yet strong enough to make the charge but the troops will become more battle hardened and reinforcements will arrive and we will charge mate...Trust me Slim, WE WILL.

Once we get into the CL, I would expect it to take several years before we even get close to winning it. There's a massive learning curve, to stay in the CL and do well domestically. But first we MUST get into the CL and then stay there year on year.

I'm no fan of the 4th is everything. I'd much rather win the FA Cup and finish 5th, than lose to Reading and get 4th. However, the fair play rules mean that the CL revenue is all important. It doesn't come with a trophy or an open top bus, but without it, we'll be in all sorts of problems.

I'm happy to take a risk on Balotelli, in the hope he becomes one of the world's best, rather than trying to buy one who's already made it. Not sure he'll get there, but it's worth the chance. In the same way, I'd have no problem bringing in other young players.

I also don't have a real problem with the likes of a Vieira to add some experience to the squad.

I do have a problem with bringing in players who are too old to have potential, but clearly aren't top 4 material - you've named several, brought in by both Hughes and Mancini. This is where the money has been wasted.

As for the current first team, how many would be snapped up by the Rags, if they were available on a free. For that matter, if their squad were available, how many would we take? I'd guess about 4 each for the first team, plus another couple as potential. Our first team and especially full squad is as good as, if not better than the rest of the Premier League. The balance may not be right, meaning it's hard to find a first 11 who fit together, but the squad as a whole is fine.

In which case, why are we doing so badly (compared to where we could have been, considering the worsening standard at the top of the league)?

You mention again about giving it time. If Mancini is the right man for the job, then of course, you are right. Ultimately, the only way we'd find out is to give him another 3 years minimum and see what happens. If he's not the right man, then we can forget about making the top 4 EVER - that is the outcome of the fair play rules. If you're not in it when they start, you'll never be able to spend enough to get in it. The club therefore need to make a very important decision - stick by Mancini and keep their fingers crossed, or find someone else, and keep their fingers crossed.

The team we are closest to at the moment, in terms of a 'project' (although I still insist it's not a project, by any definition) is probably Spurs. When arry came in, they were struggling. He's spent a few quid and turned them into a decent side, albeit not one good enough to win the title. As things stand, they're in the 1/4s of the CL, out of all domestic cups and could finish 4th. We're almost in the semi of the FA cup, have a chance to make the 1/4 of the Europa and have a slightly better chance of making 4th (on the basis we're currently above them and have to play them at home). Would we swap our season for theirs? Personally, I would. They'd frustrate and annoy me due to their defensive inefficiencies but I'd put up with that for the highs that come from the way they try to play.

If you get it right, football should be about one high after another (apparently). If not, it's the highs and lows which excite. I suspect most City fans of my era who don't remember success, look back to seasons such as the promotions under Royle and especially the one under Keegan as being real highs. We had to get pretty low to get there, but that just made the success more enjoyable. It now feels like we're on a hill. Not a very steep one, but one where you can't see the top. You just keep slogging away, getting a bit closer, but no idea how far you've got to go. It becomes a bit tedious after a while.

Hopefully, the next three games can provide some of the highs again, albeit with the risk of a crushing low somewhere, although I suspect they'll be more of the same hill.

[john68]

Carl,
Our club doesn't need instant success. Our club only has to qualify in 4th place. Anything else will be gratefully accepted as a bonus. I think we are certainly good enough to gain CL qualification...probably with a few points to spare, so I'm not worried about that.

Beyond that, we have a summer to strengthen, reast players, some of whom, because of the World Cup, have had 2 years of consecutive football. It will allow Silva, Boateng, Dzeko, Kolarov and Ballotelli a decent pre-season.

Next season is another story, possibly some new players, a better integrated squad, our younger players another year battle hardened and a lot of lessons learned. If we need to change Mancini, that is the time. Not now when we have only a few weeks to go and we can't afford to risk any damage to uor campaign. That would be suicide.

[carl_feedthegoat]

Carl,
Our club doesn't need instant success. Our club only has to qualify in 4th place. Anything else will be gratefully accepted as a bonus. I think we are certainly good enough to gain CL qualification...probably with a few points to spare, so I'm not worried about that.

Beyond that, we have a summer to strengthen, reast players, some of whom, because of the World Cup, have had 2 years of consecutive football. It will allow Silva, Boateng, Dzeko, Kolarov and Ballotelli a decent pre-season.

Next season is another story, possibly some new players, a better integrated squad, our younger players another year battle hardened and a lot of lessons learned. If we need to change Mancini, that is the time. Not now when we have only a few weeks to go and we can't afford to risk any damage to uor campaign. That would be suicide.

I dont disagree that finishing 4th would be a success.....I would say it was a minimal requirement for this season.
I dont think anyone has said they want him out NOW ??..Obviously we wait till the end of this campaign and then lets see where we stand.

I just want to see the end of pathetic excuses and to see City show some bottle till the end of the season.

It is not a lot to ask from this 300 million quid squad.

[john68]

Blue Since 76,
I think we will get 4th more comfortably than you fear...I also think that having achieved that, the summer will be to our adavntage and we may do better than you trhink in the CL.

Nowadays, the CL defines football. If you ain't in it, you don't exist on the major stage. Cl and qualification will always come firdt....Whether we like it or not. It gives us money, profile and opens the door to better players....But I'd also love to win a trophy.

Developing balotelli, like all young players, demands patience. once we become established at the top, assimilating youngsters in a stabilised team becomes easier. Our present problem is only temporary.

An old head is always useful but the likes of Silva, Tevez, Kompany and de Jong will fulfill that role for us quite soon.

Regarding older players brought in by Hughes and mancini, they were brought in to do a temporary job at a time when our status didn't allow us to get better. Temporary being the important word there.

Our present squad is not good enough YET. The youngsters need more time to evolve but once we attain CL staus, it opens the door for better quality to come.

Mancini hasn't been here long enough for him to make the significan difference we are all shouting about. It is too early to tell whether his buys; Siva, Dzeko, Boateng, Ballotelli, and Kolarov will evolve into players that are good enough to take us higher. We will know quite early next season. He will have been here long enough and his players will have had the time and preparation, so we will know then.

We are sat 3rd in the league, challenging for ther FA and Europa Cups...Cosidering how long we have been at it, we're doing just what I expected. We are not doing badly.

Don't believe that our present style of play is our future style of play. Mancini has changed his tactics often, from our defensive focus early on last year when we were afraid of the rags to a more expansive one on occasion this years. He seems to play with the tools he feels he has. As we grow, I think he'll allow our sides to grow.

The problem with Keegan was that he entertained us and gave us short term highs. Older more experienced players, with short life spans. We paid for those highs when the heritage he left was what Pearce had to play with. We want sustainable growth.

Yes, it is like going uphill. In rugby, it's called the hard yards. They have to be done but there's no glory in them. That's where we are at the moment. The future is where the glory is.

What's even worse...is that there are no guarantees...only hope.

[john68]

Carl,
Forget the money mate. it means fuck all. Money buys you players and allows you to correct the mistakes. Teams take time to build and evolve. The media and the rags might enjoy taunting us about money but they spent millions and wasted millions well before us.

At this stage of our development, I'll take 4th and smile. I will aslo take the FA CUp and laugh like fuck too.

At some point next season. you may well be right about Mancini and we may need to replace him. As it stands we have to allow him more time to develop what he's started and see what benefits we reap...if any.

There will be no guarantees with a replacement. Those who screamed for Hughes to go, aren't much better of now..are they?

[Rag_hater]

[quote="john68"]Carl,
Forget the money mate. it means fuck all. Money buys you players and allows you to correct the mistakes. Teams take time to build and evolve. The media and the rags might enjoy taunting us about money but they spent millions and wasted millions well before us.

At this stage of our development, I'll take 4th and smile. I will aslo take the FA CUp and laugh like fuck too.

At some point next season. you may well be right about Mancini and we may need to replace him. As it stands we have to allow him more time to develop what he's started and see what benefits we reap...if any.

There will be no guarantees with a replacement. Those who screamed for Hughes to go, aren't much better of now..are they?[/quote









Screaming for Hughes to go as you say yourself and I agree with you has left us a little better of.Also having money has enabled us to buy the quality of player only having vast amounts lets you.I don't think teams take time to build.When a team buys someone who is supposed to be able to do a job I think that player should be able to come in and do it immediatley(same with managers).Granted his performances will be more what the team needs as the player becomes used to his teammates but the whole idea of buying someone like,say David,is because we know what he is capable of.
For me the fact we have gradually improved with the acquisition of us by the Sheikh(vast money) and before him Frank(money). Changing managers makes me believe that change when the time is right is the way to advance.
Everytime we have changed managers since we have had money we have improved as a team.

[john68]

Carl,
Forget the money mate. it means fuck all. Money buys you players and allows you to correct the mistakes. Teams take time to build and evolve. The media and the rags might enjoy taunting us about money but they spent millions and wasted millions well before us.

At this stage of our development, I'll take 4th and smile. I will aslo take the FA CUp and laugh like fuck too.

At some point next season. you may well be right about Mancini and we may need to replace him. As it stands we have to allow him more time to develop what he's started and see what benefits we reap...if any.

There will be no guarantees with a replacement. Those who screamed for Hughes to go, aren't much better of now..are they?[/quote









Screaming for Hughes to go as you say yourself and I agree with you has left us a little better of.Also having money has enabled us to buy the quality of player only having vast amounts lets you.I don't think teams take time to build.When a team buys someone who is supposed to be able to do a job I think that player should be able to come in and do it immediatley(same with managers).Granted his performances will be more what the team needs as the player becomes used to his teammates but the whole idea of buying someone like,say David,is because we know what he is capable of.
For me the fact we have gradually improved with the acquisition of us by the Sheikh(vast money) and before him Frank(money). Changing managers makes me believe that change when the time is right is the way to advance.
Everytime we have changed managers since we have had money we have improved as a team.

Got it!!!!
So the answer is to change manager...buy a player...change the manager...buy a player...change...
Never been tried before...but it could work!
Though....last time we kept changing managers...all in one season....forgot how many...we got relegated.
Revert plan B.

[Ruthless]

I've not read this thread but i can guess at the direction it's gone in.

I'm going to chip in with

[scroll]MANCINIIIIIIIIII WOOOOOOO OOOOOOO,MANCINIIIIIIIIII WOOOOOOO OOOOOOO, HE COMES FROM ITALY, TO MANAGE MAN CITY[/scroll]

I'm with you bruv........ long live the king

[Ted Hughes]

I'm not a 'Mancini outer' but I agree 100% with Carl that I want to see a bright end to the season; something that shows we have everything to look forward to next season & shows players who may think of joining the club, that they're coming to the right place. I don't neccessarily demand that we finish 4th or win a trophy (shit can happen which stops that), just that we look like a team who deserves to, so we're all upbeat about what's to come next.

Consider the alternative for a minute, we limp through the remainder, with the manager moaning about everyone being tired & perhaps even come 4th but only because the other teams slump & play worse than us. We'll be delighted we're in the Champ's Lg but all summer people will be arguing that we're going out in the 1st round & we need to sack Bob. Next season will start in an atmosphere of uncertainty with the manager on borrowed time, perhaps they won't back him in the market .

No, we need a positive, upbeat, end to the season, with convincing, solid performances, wherever we finish & whether we win owt or not.

P.S. Guilleme Ballague says he thinks Mourinho's off. All this talk is irrelevent & all bets are off re Bob if that's true imo. I recon Bob's only here because Jose turned us down.

[Paco Gento]

You will have to toss a coin with Man U for Mou it seems

[Fesan]

John, I agree that giving Mancini another season may be what is best stability wise. But if Mourinho is available this summer then not picking him up is IMO a big risk as you never know where he might end up and if he might like it better there than where he's been before, thus loosing him for the long term.

If he becomes available and wants to come I for one would not like to risk loosing him long-term to another team to give Mancini a second chance (presuming that the drosh playstyle continues for the rest of the season).

So what do you think, does the availability of potentially the only good replacement this summer force our hand alittle?

[Alioune DVToure]

Dear Carl,

Who was the last City manager that you DIDN'T want to see get sacked?

Sven? Pearce? Keegan? Royle?

Be honest. If you were in favour of all of those being sacked/leaving the club then say so. And then think about how many players we've turned over in the last 7/8 years. And then think about how this team might become more familiar and improve as a unit next season.

The panicky flap you're getting yourself into is borderline unbelievable. We're still mathematically in with a shout of winning 3 of the 4 competitions we were in at the beginning of the season.

[carl_feedthegoat]

Dear Carl,

Who was the last City manager that you DIDN'T want to see get sacked?

Sven? Pearce? Keegan? Royle?

Be honest. If you were in favour of all of those being sacked/leaving the club then say so. And then think about how many players we've turned over in the last 7/8 years. And then think about how this team might become more familiar and improve as a unit next season.

The panicky flap you're getting yourself into is borderline unbelievable. We're still mathematically in with a shout of winning 3 of the 4 competitions we were in at the beginning of the season.

I wanted them all sacked.

Panicky fucking flap!!! Yes I am in a panicky bastard flap as I want us to secure a CL place and right now FORM WISE we are not going to make it unless we adopt a winners mentality with all players staying focused and NOT fuckign up like we have been doing so for the last few games ....

Why is it so fucking hard for fans like you to understand the frustration of fans like me?