Away Form

[john68]

I think maybe you are allowing your emotions to define your opinions mate. When he came in, I fully understood that our main problem was our leaky defence and was more than happy to see him focus on this. It is widely accepted that a team is built from back to front and he was doing just that. Team building is long term and and despite the relentless media sensationalist shite demanding immediacy, patience isn't just patience, it is realism.

Since then, we have gradually sorted out the midfield and the forwards. We have won the FA Cup, Community Shield, battered the rags 6-1 and become Champions. Not a bad bit od building by anyone's standards. It took Chelsea many years and near bankruptcy before Abramovitch before they really started to make their mark. It took Taggart around 7 years before they hit the top. We hit the top in hardly any time at all.

Did/do you honestly think that City would just continue to keep improving as time went by? No other team has achieved that. All teams move forward, slip back a bit and move forward again. Why should we be any different? The Prem is a very competetive League and staffed by top coaches and players. Is it realistic to think they don't study our games, swap notes with each other and when they do, it poses us problems we have answer. It happened last year when we sweeping all before us. We got stopped and had to rise to the new challenges. We did just that and won the league.

Currently, despite thebest efforts of some of the best coaches and players in the football, we sit just behind the rags. Not a bad position at this stage. The gap between us and the chasing group is still extending and things are evolving quite nicely.

I do not know where you drag out the "season fizzle out" crap Mate. We are on a par with last season both in points and goals against comparative sides. There is no evidence whatsoever to even suggest that we are fizzling anywhere. We are 7pts and 8 goals ahead of Chelsea below us and within touching distance of the rags above.

Hardly a reason for slashing our wrists...is it?

[Blue Philistine]

I think maybe you are allowing your emotions to define your opinions mate. When he came in, I fully understood that our main problem was our leaky defence and was more than happy to see him focus on this. It is widely accepted that a team is built from back to front and he was doing just that. Team building is long term and and despite the relentless media sensationalist shite demanding immediacy, patience isn't just patience, it is realism.

Since then, we have gradually sorted out the midfield and the forwards. We have won the FA Cup, Community Shield, battered the rags 6-1 and become Champions. Not a bad bit od building by anyone's standards. It took Chelsea many years and near bankruptcy before Abramovitch before they really started to make their mark. It took Taggart around 7 years before they hit the top. We hit the top in hardly any time at all.

Did/do you honestly think that City would just continue to keep improving as time went by? No other team has achieved that. All teams move forward, slip back a bit and move forward again. Why should we be any different? The Prem is a very competetive League and staffed by top coaches and players. Is it realistic to think they don't study our games, swap notes with each other and when they do, it poses us problems we have answer. It happened last year when we sweeping all before us. We got stopped and had to rise to the new challenges. We did just that and won the league.

Currently, despite thebest efforts of some of the best coaches and players in the football, we sit just behind the rags. Not a bad position at this stage. The gap between us and the chasing group is still extending and things are evolving quite nicely.

I do not know where you drag out the "season fizzle out" crap Mate. We are on a par with last season both in points and goals against comparative sides. There is no evidence whatsoever to even suggest that we are fizzling anywhere. We are 7pts and 8 goals ahead of Chelsea below us and within touching distance of the rags above.

Hardly a reason for slashing our wrists...is it?

Love it.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I'm not about to slash my wrists John. I'm off to Dortmund in the morning, thing is I'm not sure I'm really that arsed about seeing the game.

[getdressedmctavish]

You are right, John. We're great. Saturday was one of the best days entertainment I've had in my life. In fact I said "christ I'm really enjoying this " so often, the bloke in front asked if I was on acid.Mind you, I'm a chinmey sweep for a living, my Mrs is 44 stone, I suffer from erectile dysfunction, and my house is about to be reposessed, which is a shame because the whole ground floor has just been flooded for the seventh time in a month and I was looking forward to living with the stench of the Rochdale canal under my carpet,so maybe I do set my sights a bit low, but its not my fault.Mind you I also enjoyed it under Stu. Blimey he had that goalie from Sweden kicking it higher than I've ever seen......John, seriously. Consider this. Just as a possibility, not a certainty.We are not going forwards because the manager does not have another way of playing and its been sussed.The whole team looks as if its wearing lead boots.Ofcourse, well be great against the Rags on Sunday, but then, what's new?lol

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Beautifully illustrated 'dressed.'
Oh by the way, our home form aint all that either. I said five teams had left the Etihad without tasting defeat, but I forgot Villa in the cup.
Its not convincing at all.

[john68]

McTavish,

Whist you were considering that amusing preamble (and it made me smile) you seem to have missed a number of points I have previously posted. We agree that City are not sweeping all before them in a free flowing football and scoring frenzy, that we saw at the start of last season. We also agree that we have been sussed. On the being sussed issue, does it surprise you that some of the best football coaches and brains studied our game, chatted about it with their mates at other clubs and came up with ways to slow and/or stop us? Personally I was surprised we got away with it for so long. Didn't even the most successful manager of all time...Taggart say after the 6-1 drubbing, that the rags should have stopped trying to win the game at 1-3 and defend. Was that "damage limitation"from the rags, on their own middin? Had they done so, it is unlikely that we would have got the six.

Of course teams sussed us, the Prem is competitive and it's what they are paid to do. It is easy to play free flowing football when teams are trying to beat us and give us room. Not so easy when they pack the midfield, less easy when they only defend the final 1/3rd by filling it with bodies and even harder when, as O'Neill did at Sunderland, got his team to allow us the flanks and packed the area. The whole idea of Cattennaccio is to stop. Create a wall of bodies that it is nigh impossible to get through. It is a statement that says; "You can't get through us, you are now forced to shoot long range and we trust our keeper to save your 20-30yd shots.

Onto the matter of Mancini not having a plan B. Can I suggest you look at the "City Analytics" site. You will note that constantly we changed formation throughout last season. (it surprised me too) Not only did Mancini have a plan B, he had a plan C, D, E and probably even an F and a G. In fact, even more ironic, when he tried to introduce a back three as an alternative, with wide attacking full backs, earlier this season, he was accused of unnecessary tinkering and criticised. Fans and the media demanded that he revert back to his Plan A.

I am not trying to take the piss, nor belittle you Mate, as maybe you were trying to do with me. I am just chucking out a small part of my rational analysis of where we are.

[john68]

Piccs,

I am genuinely saddened that you are not enjoying you City experience as much as you used to Mate. I know how important it is to you. But I fear you may have to suffer this for a short while yet Mate. It is a testament to how far we have evolved and how successful we have become and how fast this has happened.

Only 2 seasons ago, quite ordinary teams would come to ours thinking they could outplay us. Last season we saw our nearest rag rivals arrive for that important derby with a strategy to stop us. The then Championes and at that time top of the League, paying us the ultimate compliment of showing they knew they couldn't compete with us in an open game, so they set up to stop us. Taggart bringing his rags to ours hoping for a draw.

Mancini may be many things Mate, but he ain't an idiot. He well understands the problem and not only him but the team of coaches and analysts behind him. While we were criticising him for tinkering, maybe, just maybe, he was a step ahead. Understanding that ; if you can't go through em, you have to go round em. Three at the back with full backs as wingers means more bodies free to attack.

Last season, Silva had far more space to weave his magic and thread his passes. Aguero and Tevez had more room to run at and through defences. Against Everton, I noted the number of times that Silva or Nasri got near their area and were immediately surrounded by as many as four defenders. I also noted how many times that City players' attempted passes into the box or shots were simply blocked by the mass of defenders.

It is easier to build a wall than run through it mate and it is not all Mancini's fault.

[Ted Hughes]

Whether it's Mancini's fault or not John, you asked the question: 'Did/do you honestly think that City would just continue to keep improving as time went by?'.

If you were to ask me that question, my answer to that would be emphatically 'yes'. There is absolutely no excuse for a lack of improvement & any attempt at one is just ridiculous.

Did I expect us to win the league ? Not neccessarily but I thought/ still think it is a very strong possibility.

That was not my criteria for this season though. I've said all along that trophies were not a demand from me this season. All I asked for was progression. I want to see us moving to the next stage, even if it's slow & doesn't quite work & we don't win anything. I want to see the various areas of the team improve, with a plan. So far imo we have been worse at the back, worse in midfield, worse in attack, tactically much much worse, worse in goal & generally look pissed off as a group, on the pitch.

The Premier League top teams are all in a state of change. We have the chance to go forward & leave them behind. So far, we have largely gone backwards & seem to start every game with a new football philosophy. The latest one was Mike Bassett 4-4-2 'whack it forward & run after it'. We were actually outplayed at football by Everton for the 1st 20 mins while we played like they used to play.

Someone explain to me what the fuck Mancini is doing. I thought I'd sussed it, & was full of optimism for a master plan I imagined he had. Now, I have no fucking idea what he's doing from one game to the next.

[Socrates]

We've managed to beat Fulham, West Brom, and Wigan ffs. When we play decent oppo we look poor. Madrid pan handled us and should have been out of sight at the break, Ajax similarly twatted us. We were very fortunate at Scouse not to lose too. I do accept that we were the better team at Chelsea and that bucks the trend with what was a decent performance. Its not scintillating form at all.

Oh John, I've moved.

Did you leave your brain behind when you moved? Please go back for it...

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

We've managed to beat Fulham, West Brom, and Wigan ffs. When we play decent oppo we look poor. Madrid pan handled us and should have been out of sight at the break, Ajax similarly twatted us. We were very fortunate at Scouse not to lose too. I do accept that we were the better team at Chelsea and that bucks the trend with what was a decent performance. Its not scintillating form at all.

Oh John, I've moved.

Did you leave your brain behind when you moved? Please go back for it...

Which bit of that was wrong?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

We've managed to beat Fulham, West Brom, and Wigan ffs. When we play decent oppo we look poor. Madrid pan handled us and should have been out of sight at the break, Ajax similarly twatted us. We were very fortunate at Scouse not to lose too. I do accept that we were the better team at Chelsea and that bucks the trend with what was a decent performance. Its not scintillating form at all.

Oh John, I've moved.

Did you leave your brain behind when you moved? Please go back for it...

Which bit of that was wrong?

Tough games so far:
Liverpool away
Stoke away
Chelsea away
Madrid away
Dortmund away
Ajax away
Arsenal home
Everton home
Spurs home
WBA away
Ajax home
Madrid home
Dortmund home

Easy games

Fulham away
WHU away
Soton home
Swansea home
QPR home
Villa home
Wigan away
Sunderland home

All may not agree with the easy / hard distinction but if I am right we have had 13 tough games so far this season and won just 2.We do need to improve in the harder games

[Swales4ever]

All may not agree with the easy / hard distinction but if I am right we have had 13 tough games so far this season and won just 2.We do need to improve in the harder games

It's simply impossible to disagree with Your best informed, competent and balanced opinion.

I'd be like questoining Craig's taste on birds (even if it's certainly arguable whether he owns a knowledge and info on birds, comparable with Yours on footy... ;-)

Doug licking Alert?

[Tokyo Blue]

I thought Southampton and Swansea at home were very difficult games indeed because in those two games the opposition played really well. Same goes for arsenal, much as I dislike them. Plus West Ham, liverpool and everton, though only defensively in those cases as they didn't create much in the way of chances.

I realise the whole concept of crediting the opposition may seem a little difficult for some of you out there.

[john68]

Piccs,
I know posting this is a total waste of time because once you have a mindset, the door shuts behind it and no evidence or proof is likely to change it Pal. But, this has to be said. You are beginning to sound like the a kid in a cake shop, want this, want that and that and that. You are asking for something that is both unrealistic and unreasonable.

MANCINI IS NEGATIVE?...Last season, we scored more goals at home and more goals away than any other Prem team. Our GD was 8 goals better than the next best and a whopping 39 goals better than the 3rd best. We won the league and became Champions for the first time in 44 years on goal difference, a massive 19pts ahead of the 3rd place. That means that you jumped up and down cheering City goals 4 times more than the next best (the rags) and 19 times more than any fan of any other club
Please tell me again, which bit of any of that is negative?...and factor in that we did this on the back of a previous season's trip to Wembley to win the FA Cup, causing the jibes and jokes to finally end. STILL THINK THIS IS NEGATIVE? Do the players get the plaudits when we are successful and we only consider Mancini when we feel the need for blame?

You may complain that after the early part of last season, other teams sussed us out and Mancini had no plan B. Did you not expect to be sussed out? Did you honestly think other managers and coaches would be stupid and not study our tactics? Did you not expect some other clever fucler to work out a way to stop or slow us and other clever fuclers to study what he had done and do similar? It's a competitive league and other teams compete too. Other teams have brains on their staffs too.

PLAN B...Despite common belief, we did not have ONE single way of setting up last season. I was amazed when I studied the "City Analytics" to find just how many different ways we actually did set up against opponents. Sometimes variations on a theme using different players in different roles. Far more more complex and intense than I had thought. Please go check them out...Plans B, C, D, E, etc. You'll be amazed.

Consider too that you and others were calling for Mancini's head during last season, even as late as the Arsenal (A) game. The negativity came from fans like yourself NOT Mancini. Those same fans who now have the temerity and gall to call him negative. You couldn't make it up mate.

...end of part one.

[john68]

Sorry Piccs but this shite has been getting on my tits for a long time and now I'm on a roll....Part Two.

Leaving Europe to one side for a moment, all this shite about us being a mile behind and not playing well compared to last season and having a dodgy defence is total bollox. We sit in 2nd place, within a derby match of being on the top. We are the only unbeaten team in the top seven divisions of the football pyramid and we have the best GD. HOW NEGATIVE IS ALL THAT? Our dodgy defence is the best in the League and when we compare our record against the same teams as last season, we are pretty much on a par. Sack Mancini for keeping us on course for the title? YOU BET EH! We are no worse this than last and last was pretty fuclin good.

Winning the League was brilliant at the time but the lasting legacy seems to be a massive unrealistic and unreasonable lifting of expectation. Did you honestly think that everything would be rosy? That City would improve exponentially and the gap between us and others would increase as we climbed the ladder up to invincibility? Did you think that the free flowing football would somehow return and all would be marvelous and wonderful?

Those halcyon days of the early part of last season have gone. They may return and yet again, they may not. A competitive league is just that and the rags, who pride themselves on beating off the challenges of Liverpool, Chelsea and arsenal over the years,were always going to redouble their efforts to cling on to our shirt tails. Please note that we are currently 9pts clear of the 3rd place team, so not a lot of worries there then.

HISTORY...Just for the record to help you deal with your expectation.
JOE MERCER led us to the title in 1968 with a comparative (adjusted 3pts for win) 84pts (not as good as last season). The following year we ended 13th with only 55pts (adjusted) and the next two season we were 10th and 11th, with 59pts and 53pts respectively..
WE BUILT A FUCLIN MOSAIC AND NAMED A ROAD AT THE GROUND TO VENERATE HIM...YOU FUCLERS WOULD HAVE SACKED HIM BY CHRISTMAS.

Taggart is a fuclin hero at the swamp. It took him around 7 years to get to where we are now. He may not have spent to our levels, but he had all the resources he needed and wanted. When the rags won the League in 1994 with 92pts, their record in the next four years was; 88pts, 82pts, 75pts, and 72pts.A whole 20 pts gradual decrease. Sack him? No they now have a fuclin statue.
Chelsea started their project of spending big long before Abramovitch. Theyspent years trying to get to where we are now. When they won the League in 2005, 95pts, they followed it with 91pts, 83pts, 85pts, and 83pts. 22pts drop.
...and you can make what you want about Arsenal.

Maybe your expectation says more about the media hype or the culture we now live in. It says fuck all about reality.

End of Part Two...there is plenty more if you want it.

[Yffi_88]

Magnificent, John. Great post(s).

[john68]

Magnificent, John. Great post(s).

Thanks, I think my head will explode. This shit is really pissing me off big time. I have never come across such abject ridiculous nonsense from intelligent men. It defies credibilty.

Maybe we should take the mosaic of Mercer and ceremonially hang it from a tree.

...and if someone should consider our European exploits...never forget that the Venerable Joe fell at the very 1st hurdle in Turkey.

[zuricity]

John68, on the ball there mate.


I have had many neutrals say that the championship being won in the dying moments is the ultimate

this will live on. One of Footballs defining moments.

Believe in City

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

>>>>When they won the League in 2005, 95pts, they followed it with 91pts, 83pts, 85pts, and 83pts. 22pts drop.


Where did you go to school John? Not a specialist Maths college I see.

Its all a matter of your take on it. I get sick of hearing how everything is fucking rosy and that should be enough, when what I see screams out something different.
We have had a couple of big wins against poor teams, but other than that we have had a struggle all season. Every time we play anybody good we bottle it. And City's performances at Madrid? Was that brave? No, Mancini set up to lose and hey guess what? We lost. Or how about our cowardly efforts every year at Arsenal? Gutless. We don't look like we're gonna score when it is needed, as at Dortmund the other night.
And how dare you make the assumption that I would have wanted Joe sacked. I'm usually all for stability but I genuinely believe that Mancini isn't the real answer. But with Joe, it was different times with a more even playing field, Joe didn't enjoy the advantages that Mancini has. In fact he was behind the eight ball as we didn't have a pot to piss in, but in those days it was possible to bridge the gap with the richer clubs. And as an intelligent man I'm surprised at you trying to compare the two different circumstances. It's an irrelevant and low effort.


.

[john68]

Sorry Mate, you are right but the point remains that they dropped and dropped significantly so. The point that teams don't constantly improve year on year remains. No team ever has (Except us up to now) so to expect it is nonsensical.

Not only "how dare I bring Mecer in as an example" but i will reiterate even more forcibly. Mercer ( depsite the circumstances) got us to the top. Once there, with almost the same set of players, he and Allison were unable to keep us there. Not a dip in form but a drop down to 13th (you do the maths, I'm not an expert). Having got us up, the following season he FAILED, as he did the following seasons after. The added point about his veneration was to compare fans' attitudes. His hero worship to the ridiculous clamour for Mancini to be sacked.

Your point about his resources is invalid. I am arguing from the high point of his success and his downward spiral. It would NOThave been tolerated. I further dare to reiterate that considering your negative reaction to the dips in form you have witnessed under Mancini, your assertion that you would have tolerated a drop that had us, as reigning Champions, hovering around the relegation places is also ridiculous.

Times were certainly different mate. We tolerated the poor League form over several seasons and we tolerated his European failure. Then we venerated him as a hero. The point is neither low nor poor.