Rekik

[Cocacolajojo1]

Quick thought about Spanish football:

I've often thought that it's their philosophy, especially the Barca philosophy, of learning how to pass, dribble etc, that has made their national team and best league clubs to blossom.

Could it rather be that they have refined their techniques in how to evaluate which youth-players will make it at an adult level?

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I don't consider the skills I listed as attacking attributes as such. I think they are the raw material I would like to see in every youth player (jumping is bit of an exception). Your physical attributes and instincts then pretty much dictate where you end up playing. If we stay at Ferdinand, he was striker as a youngster.

One attribute, probably the most important, I forgot was determination. Determination should not be confused with workrate. If player has the determination needed you can get the work rate part later by directing his play to right things. Determination is that hunger to succeed. That guy who is always looking to be available for pass, who after losing the ball will jump up and win the ball back no matter what, that guy who alwaysbstays after the trainingbto hone his skills individually. Determination really truly is something that can't be taught. That needs to go with aforementioned skills though to amount into something.

Great example of player with everything except determination, Stephen Ireland. He truly had the attributes to become world class player. Paul Dickov being in other end of the scale. Dickov had no business playing professional football but carved a career for himself by pure raw determination.

Determination will always be needed and it's the main reason why someone like Anthony Le Tallec, the most gifted player at U18 level I've EVER seen, is playing god knows where and why Leo Messi is the best player in the world.

[Cocacolajojo1]

I don't consider the skills I listed as attacking attributes as such. I think they are the raw material I would like to see in every youth player (jumping is bit of an exception). Your physical attributes and instincts then pretty much dictate where you end up playing. If we stay at Ferdinand, he was striker as a youngster.

It would be interesting to see how many of the players in the premier league who started out as forwards at some point, regardless of what position they hold down now. I've gut a gut feeling that this is the deal quite often because the most skill- and thought-developing positions are forward and midfield and it makes sense if people who are skilled are put in at forward roles as kids. I mean, who doesn't like to score and a lot of kids' coaches wonder about winning when they should be thinking about developing all the players as much as possible for the kids' own enjoyment.

A colleague of mine works as a junior coach for women's football, like... 10-13 or something like that I think. He refuses to play people, I think with the exception of goalies, in the same position. He says it's because otherwise they'll develop a rigid thinking about football and stagnate in their growth. Defenders will lump it. FOrwards will dribble. MInd you, he doesn't do this with the intention of making these girls superstars, he does it because he wants everyone to be able to take as much as possible from their football-playing days in terms of experience and individual growth. But his teams (I think he's involved in more than one) are the best in their age group. I don't think that's a coincidence.

This is very off topic though... but as you said, the abilities you listed are not attacking skills but general skills a football player should develop. Agree with the determination bit as well, I'd say we see a lot of these determined-but-medium-skilled-nothing-special-footballers whenever we play the a team from the championship or perhaps even the bottom of the premier league. But one wonders how many people how get slotted in as defenders when they're 10-11 make it to become defenders at a pro adult-level...

[Cocacolajojo1]

Determination will always be needed and it's the main reason why someone like Anthony Le Tallec, the most gifted player at U18 level I've EVER seen, is playing god knows where and why Leo Messi is the best player in the world.

I wanted to make a different post about this. I completely agree with this... but how do you measure determination in a guy like Rekik? or any junior player for that matter. As most fans, we see small glimpses of them, if even that, through the highlights on the website. These highlights and even the odd game won't give more than a display of many of the skills that are... not superficial but that can be improved drastically even after 18. But determination, I agree its the most important or rather... well yes, the most important skill you can have except the proper physical attributes. But how... how do you measure that is what I'm asking?

[Im_Spartacus]

I wanted to make a different post about this. I completely agree with this... but how do you measure determination in a guy like Rekik? or any junior player for that matter. As most fans, we see small glimpses of them, if even that, through the highlights on the website. These highlights and even the odd game won't give more than a display of many of the skills that are... not superficial but that can be improved drastically even after 18. But determination, I agree its the most important or rather... well yes, the most important skill you can have except the proper physical attributes. But how... how do you measure that is what I'm asking?

Personally, I would say determination is not something the fans can measure, but coaches and scouts can. The ability to learn from mistakes on the pitch or even training and work hard not to keep on making them, perhaps whilst having the maturity (and good mentoring) to recognise that this process takes time. Additionally, in the public eye of playing for a dutch team with global exposure in continental competition, mental resilience against the inevitable criticism from those fans who arent prepared to see a youngster get a chance is critical for Rekik, and a big jump forward for him this season would evidence him passing that test having improved as a player even though he gets made to look silly on a few occasions by wily opposition.

A good example would be Micah Richards being hounded by the fans and probably 90% of them writing him off a few years back. It took Mancini and his coaching team, along no doubt with a good dose of Micah's own fortitude to turn him round to the player we have today. Without the determination and the fortitude to tough it out right through their development phase, most would have fallen by the wayside, but Micah had the talent and the determination

[Ted Hughes]

Determination will always be needed and it's the main reason why someone like Anthony Le Tallec, the most gifted player at U18 level I've EVER seen, is playing god knows where and why Leo Messi is the best player in the world.

I wanted to make a different post about this. I completely agree with this... but how do you measure determination in a guy like Rekik? or any junior player for that matter. As most fans, we see small glimpses of them, if even that, through the highlights on the website. These highlights and even the odd game won't give more than a display of many of the skills that are... not superficial but that can be improved drastically even after 18. But determination, I agree its the most important or rather... well yes, the most important skill you can have except the proper physical attributes. But how... how do you measure that is what I'm asking?

You can usually see the players with particular determination, by their actions & reactions. I mean the example of Dickov has been used already, but you don't really need to be a top football coach to see what Dickov brings to the table. Likewise you can see a difference between Negredo & Dzeko, Tevez & Robinho, Zabeleta & Boateng. I was watching Zabba at corners on Sunday, he was ALL OVER the bloke he was marking. It's not a guarantee of success but if the bloke was going to beat him, he would have to work harder than Campbell did! Zabba is determined to get it right.

I don't fault Rekik at all in that area, although I've not noticed anything super special either, but Paul Dickov would have no chance of legally stopping Peter Crouch or even Dzeko, at a corner kick, he doesn't have the physique or height. Rekik has to reach that level if he's to make it & just sheer determination won't hack it. Clever fouling and getting away with it, is the only way I could see him doing it.

[mr_nool]

I don't consider the skills I listed as attacking attributes as such. I think they are the raw material I would like to see in every youth player (jumping is bit of an exception). Your physical attributes and instincts then pretty much dictate where you end up playing. If we stay at Ferdinand, he was striker as a youngster.

It would be interesting to see how many of the players in the premier league who started out as forwards at some point, regardless of what position they hold down now. I've gut a gut feeling that this is the deal quite often because [highlight]the most skill- and thought-developing positions are forward and midfield[/highlight]and it makes sense if people who are skilled are put in at forward roles as kids. I mean, who doesn't like to score and a lot of kids' coaches wonder about winning when they should be thinking about developing all the players as much as possible for the kids' own enjoyment.

A colleague of mine works as a junior coach for women's football, like... 10-13 or something like that I think. He refuses to play people, I think with the exception of goalies, in the same position. He says it's because otherwise they'll develop a rigid thinking about football and stagnate in their growth. Defenders will lump it. FOrwards will dribble. MInd you, he doesn't do this with the intention of making these girls superstars, he does it because he wants everyone to be able to take as much as possible from their football-playing days in terms of experience and individual growth. But his teams (I think he's involved in more than one) are the best in their age group. I don't think that's a coincidence.

This is very off topic though... but as you said, the abilities you listed are not attacking skills but general skills a football player should develop. Agree with the determination bit as well, I'd say we see a lot of these determined-but-medium-skilled-nothing-special-footballers whenever we play the a team from the championship or perhaps even the bottom of the premier league. But one wonders how many people how get slotted in as defenders when they're 10-11 make it to become defenders at a pro adult-level...

I find the highlighted statement patronising from a defender's point of view. It's like saying that a defender's skill set is inferior to a forward's, and that being a good defender is all about being physically strong - not about being intelligent, reading the game well, having tactical nous.

And the reason why (perhaps) a large percentage of the players who make it to professional football played forwards in their youth, is ,in my opinion, not down to the fact that these positions are more "skill- and thought-developing", but simply because they were the best (and often biggest) players in their teams. As you say: youth coaches like to win and thus play their best and biggest players upfront.

[dazlebluefrog]

I don't consider the skills I listed as attacking attributes as such. I think they are the raw material I would like to see in every youth player (jumping is bit of an exception). Your physical attributes and instincts then pretty much dictate where you end up playing. If we stay at Ferdinand, he was striker as a youngster.

One attribute, probably the most important, I forgot was determination. Determination should not be confused with workrate. If player has the determination needed you can get the work rate part later by directing his play to right things. Determination is that hunger to succeed. That guy who is always looking to be available for pass, who after losing the ball will jump up and win the ball back no matter what, that guy who alwaysbstays after the trainingbto hone his skills individually. Determination really truly is something that can't be taught. That needs to go with aforementioned skills though to amount into something.

Great example of player with everything except determination, Stephen Ireland. He truly had the attributes to become world class player. Paul Dickov being in other end of the scale. Dickov had no business playing professional football but carved a career for himself by pure raw determination.

Determination will always be needed and it's the main reason why someone like Anthony Le Tallec, the most gifted player at U18 level I've EVER seen, is playing god knows where and why Leo Messi is the best player in the world.

he's now at Valenciennes mate it's his 9th club ,the french have a good system with the academy at clairfontaine they've got some good players coming through at the moment, won the u-20 world cup this summer & the u-19 lost in the final of the european championship
i wonder how many will break through to be "stars"

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Determination will always be needed and it's the main reason why someone like Anthony Le Tallec, the most gifted player at U18 level I've EVER seen, is playing god knows where and why Leo Messi is the best player in the world.

I wanted to make a different post about this. I completely agree with this... but how do you measure determination in a guy like Rekik? or any junior player for that matter. As most fans, we see small glimpses of them, if even that, through the highlights on the website. These highlights and even the odd game won't give more than a display of many of the skills that are... not superficial but that can be improved drastically even after 18. But determination, I agree its the most important or rather... well yes, the most important skill you can have except the proper physical attributes. But how... how do you measure that is what I'm asking?

I was talking more about raw material they look for when selecting kids to Academy. Player Rekik's age is in situation where he is honing his skills, not learning them, and most of the training is about position spesific tactics, right kind of movement off the ball and improving some physical skills. You need to train to maintain your level and improve it little bit but to put it simple, the guys who dominate those "one touch passing, two players middle and three players passing" drills (can be seven against four or three against one or whatever) will do so in ten years just as they do now provided they keep training. None of the guys who are not shining in those at the age of 18 will not be professional footballers at the age of 28.

Regarding recognizing determination, I know this guy who works as a youth scout (roughly ages 13 to 17) in Scandinavia and he once said that he learns almost more about the kids determination by watching them jog back sideline in halftime and looking at them taking orders from coach before the game than they do during the game. They whole body language and everything. Does the kid stare at his coach intensively? Does he sprint back or jog back or even walk back. Does he lead the group in prematch warm up or is he trying to cut the corners. Apparently some guys can show right sort of workrate when playing full speed but still lack the determination to put in the hours in training ground and survive through inevitable adversity of professional football.

Back to my own opinions. I don't think guys with determination should be confused with "fair play guys". You know that guy who always wins fair play awards and is patting everyone in the back. I think you need certain level of competitive edge as well and that rarely wins you fair play awards.

[Cocacolajojo1]

I find the highlighted statement patronising from a defender's point of view. It's like saying that a defender's skill set is inferior to a forward's, and that being a good defender is all about being physically strong - not about being intelligent, reading the game well, having tactical nous.

And the reason why (perhaps) a large percentage of the players who make it to professional football played forwards in their youth, is ,in my opinion, not down to the fact that these positions are more "skill- and thought-developing", but simply because they were the best (and often biggest) players in their teams. As you say: youth coaches like to win and thus play their best and biggest players upfront.

We're talking junior and kids football here, not playing at an adult level. Secondly, of course it's not less work to be a defender or less of a challenge, especially not in pro-football or adult football but for most kids playing in a team where the best player will automatically play forward because the coach wants to win, the centre-backs will probably be told to lump the ball, kick it out for a throw-in or pass the goalie. And they will get stuck in that attitude. Midfielders and forwards, again playing in a general youth-team with a dad or someone as the coach, won't be getting the same type of limited instructions. In general. I was generalizing a bit perhaps, but do you know how hard it is to make a point and be nuanced at the same time? It's impossible, almost anyway.

The thing with giving kids, even junior players permanent positions (besides the goalie) is an atrocious practice imo. You learn from every position I'd say. That was my main point. Sorry if I wrote my post in such a way as to paint defence in a such a nonchalant manner.

[Cocacolajojo1]

Sparty, Ted, NQPD, I don't really have anything to add. I think you all make good points. Thank you for your answers!

[mr_nool]

We're talking junior and kids football here, not playing at an adult level. Secondly, of course it's not less work to be a defender or less of a challenge, especially not in pro-football or adult football but for most kids playing in a team where the best player will automatically play forward because the coach wants to win, the centre-backs will probably be told to lump the ball, kick it out for a throw-in or pass the goalie. And they will get stuck in that attitude. Midfielders and forwards, again playing in a general youth-team with a dad or someone as the coach, won't be getting the same type of limited instructions. In general. I was generalizing a bit perhaps, but do you know how hard it is to make a point and be nuanced at the same time? It's impossible, almost anyway.

The thing with giving kids, even junior players permanent positions (besides the goalie) is an atrocious practice imo. You learn from every position I'd say. That was my main point. Sorry if I wrote my post in such a way as to paint defence in a such a nonchalant manner.

I totally agree with you that you shouldn't assign positions to kids. They will learn a lot more by switching. Generally I agree with most of what you say. Guess I just misinterpreted what you wrote a bit.

[Jorgobot]

World class post Coco.

I second that

[Ted Hughes]

In the Joe Royle/Keegan period, the best defenders at set pieces imo were Shaun Goater & Paulo Wanchope.

Bit random, but related in that they were both specialists elsewhere & imo, if they were defending for either City or PSV in recent games, no goals would have been scored from corners. The ball would not reach its target.

[Cocacolajojo1]

I'm not saying this is good evidence for or against Rekik but here's at least an outside perspective, stole it from our website who stole it from Goal.com:

Goal.com reports: “His desire to play football at the highest level led him to Eindhoven this summer and has already impressed with his aerial prowess, forceful defending and confidence on the ball.”

http://mcfc.co.uk/News/Team-news/2013/September/Loan-watch-3-September

[Cocacolajojo1]

ha!

[Ted Hughes]

I'm not saying this is good evidence for or against Rekik but here's at least an outside perspective, stole it from our website who stole it from Goal.com:

Goal.com reports: “His desire to play football at the highest level led him to Eindhoven this summer and has already impressed with his aerial prowess, forceful defending and confidence on the ball.”

http://mcfc.co.uk/News/Team-news/2013/September/Loan-watch-3-September

Hmm.

The fact that it mentions 'aerial prowess' makes me take that with a huge pinch of salt. I doubt even his mother would list that as a strong point, if asked.

[Cocacolajojo1]

I'm not saying this is good evidence for or against Rekik but here's at least an outside perspective, stole it from our website who stole it from Goal.com:

Goal.com reports: “His desire to play football at the highest level led him to Eindhoven this summer and has already impressed with his aerial prowess, forceful defending and confidence on the ball.”

http://mcfc.co.uk/News/Team-news/2013/September/Loan-watch-3-September

Hmm.

The fact that it mentions 'aerial prowess' makes me take that with a huge pinch of salt. I doubt even his mother would list that as a strong point, if asked.

I hope he lets her score sometimes when they play football. It'd be rude if he didn't!

[mr_nool]

Cocacolajojo asked me to check out what they say about Rekik on some Dutch PSV forums, so here comes (will check every now and then through out the season):

- Rekik has pulled out of the Dutch squad for the coming WC qualifications due to injury. Nothing serious.
- Over all they're very happy with him so far and are already discussing how they could get City to prolong the loan deal for another year.
- They've noticed the same shortcomings as have been pointed out in this thread, but have them down to youth an inexperience.

Selected quotes:

I'm very happy with Rekik so far. Strong defender who dares to play football, not only lump it forward.

This lad has surprised me positively. I had low expectations, but he's blown me away. He's going to be very important for us this season - he already is. if he continues like this, he will have outgrown the Dutch league by the end of this season.

A very good addition so far. Wins a lot in the air, dares to put in a tackle, is good at starting play from the back and physically strong. Personally I think he's better and further in his development than Bruma.

We should definitely try to loan him for another year from City, who in my opinion see him as the next Kompany. They wil have a killer central defence for years to come with Nastasic and Rekik.

(didn't know Carl knew Dutch ...)

If Bakkali doesn't want to sign a new contract it might be an idea to make a deal with City: Bakkali to City for Rekik and 15 million euros.

(after the second Milan game)

He didn't play bad, but i definitely though bruma was better. Rekik is only 18 and a great talent, but he does make mistakes: mistimes challenges, doesn't use his body right, poor timing in the air.
has the potential to be a world class defender, but at this moment in time I think that Bruma is much further in his development

Was less impressive last nigh. Some big mistakes.

To bad for him and the team that he lost his marking for the second goal, and that he was too late off the line for the first. The positive aspect is that these sort of mistakes are down to his youth - perhaps City will think that he isn't ready for the highest level just yet, so that we can enjoy him a little longer.

[Green & Blue]

Cheers for that Nool and Cocacolajojo for the idea.Interesting to hear what they make of him.Seems he is making a good early impression.