FIFA's November 11th decision

[zuricity]

The idiots at the FA had no need to raise the issue with Fifa , selfrighteous gits and pen pushers ( expensive ones as well).

Black armbands when important people die are ok ?
but not poppies , bunch of idiots and mercenaries administering football.

Money being scammed out of the fifa sieve and they waste so much time on such a non-issue.

[Mase]

I say just go for it and fuck them.
I know McClean(I think) chose not to wear it a couple of years back and that's fine with me. Individual choice and all that.
But maybe I have this all wrong, but is the poppy not worn in commemoration of all those that have fallen in battle in WW2.

Why the hell would anyone object to that.

It should not be forgotten. To hell with UEFA. Just do it.

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this.

But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,
James McClean

[Foreverinbluedreams]

The idiots at the FA had no need to raise the issue with Fifa , selfrighteous gits and pen pushers ( expensive ones as well

That's how I see it, it looks like the FA went looking for trouble.

[johnny crossan]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

That's some leap JC.

[Cocacolajojo]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

That's some leap JC.

I'm also guessing the fact that the Daily Mail was a key player in getting the poppy thing started in football a decade or so ago contributes to the controversy.

[johnny crossan]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

That's some leap JC.

No leap, not even a skip - the eternally reliable modus ponens conveys any rational being to this conclusion.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

That's some leap JC.

No leap, not even a skip - the eternally reliable modus ponens conveys any rational being to this conclusion.

Scary that a seemingly well educated and intelligent bloke like yourself sees that as a rational conclusion.

[johnny crossan]

'I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. ...But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

There is no difference, it's a political statement about the British oppressor in Ireland and McLean and his ilk could just as well have used the 1916 Easter Rising as a date or indeed a time after any of the numerous actions to put down rebellion in that country over many centuries. The objection doesn't recognise that the reason for wearing the Poppy is not a celebration of war or victory in war, it is an act of remembrance for lives lost in war.

FIFA are in effect endorsing the political objectives of Sinn Fein and the IRA among others by opposing the wearing of the Poppy. Very helpful I'm sure.

That's some leap JC.

No leap, not even a skip - the eternally reliable modus ponens conveys any rational being to this conclusion.

Scary that a seemingly well educated and intelligent bloke like yourself sees that as a rational conclusion.

Possibly, although appearances can indeed be deceptive, hopefully you will notice I am not asserting that FIFA is necessarily aware of the logical implications of its own rules.
Consider perhaps your reaction if FIFA abandoned its support of the 'Kick Racism Out of Football' initiative at the behest of the Klu Klux Klan

[Justified logic]

I would gladly take a 7pt deduction if it meant England not going to that shithole Russia.

[zuricity]

I would gladly take a 7pt deduction if it meant England not going to that shithole Russia.

That is the very essence of this cunning plan, save England getting knocked out by another minnows team.

Also the violence that would take place.

Why bother going ?

Can they extend the ban to include 2022?

[BlueinBosnia]

Why not just wear a black armband? Everyone knows what it will symbolize. I don't see anything good in the poppy symbol being (in my opinion) 'Disneyfied' in this way. In fact, I think it's quite demeaning to the symbol and everything that it originally stood for (discreet commemoration and fundraising for those affected by war). This poppy-or-bust attitude roused in the masses by the media is exactly the same mentality that was fostered in the young who were so easily led out to the fields in the First World War, and it's incredibly sad to see.

On the same day as England play Scotland, Wales play Serbia. Serbia's equivalent of the poppy is Natalie's Ramonda, a flower used to symbolize simultaneously the sacrifices of Serbia's war dead and the salvation of the Serbian Kingdom in and (partially) through the Great War. I fully expect that, were the poppy symbol to be allowed for England and Scotland, and therefore, de facto for Wales, then so should this. That could potentially kick off all sorts of complaints from within the region

[Foreverinbluedreams]

Republic of Ireland charged by FIFA.

I wouldn't mind I was at that game when the 1916 badge was worn and the first I heard about it was on this thread.

Rats out!

[JamieMCFC]

Would be interesting to get the opinions of people that aren't English on this.

Probably most don't really care.

[CTID Hants]

Republic of Ireland charged by FIFA.

I wouldn't mind I was at that game when the 1916 badge was worn and the first I heard about it was on this thread.

Rats out!

I didn't know about it either until today but apparently the FA & SFA cited it in their argument to FIFA & only now are FIFA taking action despite the game being played 6 months or so ago!!

[Foreverinbluedreams]

Republic of Ireland charged by FIFA.

I wouldn't mind I was at that game when the 1916 badge was worn and the first I heard about it was on this thread.

Rats out!

I didn't know about it either until today but apparently the FA & SFA cited it in their argument to FIFA & only now are FIFA taking action despite the game being played 6 months or so ago!!

My gut feeling on this mate is that if England and Scotland just went ahead and wore the poppy there wouldn't have been any sanction, unless of course a complaint was made but who that would be watching the game would make the complaint?

[Mase]

English FA fuckin grasses!

[Justified logic]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

[johnny crossan]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

You think the two world wars weren't politicised? Regular soldiers, sailors and airmen/women sign up to die? Professionals in the armed services, police,fire service etc who get killed in the line of duty don't count as much because they're volunteers? They get to choose which wars they get to fight in? The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

Yours is the sort of lazy and shallow thinking that leads to the despair with which the older generation view our contemporary society. Read what follows and learn.

AN OPEN LETTER TO FIFA
The red poppy is a symbol of Remembrance and hope for a peaceful future.

Friday 4 November 2016

The Royal British Legion Headquarters
To the governing body of FIFA,

The red poppy is a symbol of Remembrance and hope for a peaceful future. It has no political, religious or commercial meaning.

This small red flower that grew on the devastated battlefields of the First World War is a solemn reminder of the cost of war and the price of peace. The red poppy is worn so that we never forget the commitment and sacrifices of the Serving, never forget those who need help to live on through the consequences of war, and always remember our troubled world needs reconciliation and peace.

Since 1921 the Legion has protected the red poppy from political or partisan misuse and ensured it remains a symbol that can be worn with pride by those of all ages, backgrounds, and political and religious beliefs.

Many nations respect and honour the sacrifices of their Armed Forces and the red poppy is an international symbol worn around the world. Each year 1.5 million poppies are sent to 50 countries worldwide, there are distinct red poppies worn in Canada, Australia and New Zealand for Remembrance, and in France they wear the bluet. We can see no reason why this simple symbol cannot be worn by players at international football matches should they choose to.

The poppy represents sacrifices made in the defence of freedom, and so the decision to wear it must be a matter of personal choice. We would never insist upon it, as to do so would be contrary to the spirit of Remembrance and all that the poppy stands for.

This year the Legion is asking the nation to rethink Remembrance when they wear their poppy, and recognise that all generations of our Armed Forces community, from the Second World War through to the present day, need our support. The poppy is as much to support the future of the living, as to honour the memory of the fallen and we thank the football associations of the home nations who have helped us carry this message to the millions of football fans watching their matches this Remembrance period.

We ask you, FIFA, in the strongest terms that you rethink your approach to remembrance and the use of the poppy, and permit players to honour the commitment and sacrifices of the Armed Forces.

Yours sincerely,

Charles Byrne

Director General, The Royal British Legion

Why not just wear a black armband? Everyone knows what it will symbolize. I don't see anything good in the poppy symbol being (in my opinion) 'Disneyfied' in this way. In fact, I think it's quite demeaning to the symbol and everything that it originally stood for (discreet commemoration and fundraising for those affected by war). This poppy-or-bust attitude roused in the masses by the media is exactly the same mentality that was fostered in the young who were so easily led out to the fields in the First World War, and it's incredibly sad to see.

On the same day as England play Scotland, Wales play Serbia. Serbia's equivalent of the poppy is Natalie's Ramonda, a flower used to symbolize simultaneously the sacrifices of Serbia's war dead and the salvation of the Serbian Kingdom in and (partially) through the Great War. I fully expect that, were the poppy symbol to be allowed for England and Scotland, and therefore, de facto for Wales, then so should this.
That could potentially kick off all sorts of complaints from within the region.

Complaints about what?

[Hutch's Shoulder]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.