john68 wrote:I'm sorry TwoSips but your replies "so what, what has this got to do with Uniteds morals?" or that you don't give a shit about Ross and brand, are totally inadequate. You consider only the morals of City fans...but on what authority? What makes you the conscience of City fans?
I have no problem with nor is this a criticism of your own morals but those are your own. If you wish to preach to others about their lack of morals, surely that should apply to all and not just to a small group who you choose to select for your attacks.
Regarding the United morals, it actually has everything to do with it. You attacked KK for his view without knowing, nor semingly caring why that view was held, nor did you seem interested. I know that KK's opinion is very much driven by the disrespect shown by United to their own, whilst demanding respect to be shown by everyone else. In that, the actions of United, far from having nothing to do with it, actually have everything to do with it.
If you are, as you put yourself forward as, a defender of morals, then you should be defending those morals whereever they are compromised. You seem to be only concerned with the morals of individuals wearing sky blue, whilst ignoring those held by the rags and the media.
You are in fact guilty of exactly the same crime as the rags and the media.
Bullshit - I quite clearly stated that I think its completely wrong that United fans sing crap too, and that I do believe, along with you, that the media are occasionally prone to pick on us. So that's bollocks. I have no idea why you're expecting me to answer for the united fans and the press - my argument was that I don't agree with your attitude that seems to suggest 'well if they're allowed to do it then so are we', which is why I tried to separate the things and assess them both as they are. I always try and look at each incident with its own merit and without bias of another similar event.
Right. Here's my opinion and reasoning - regardless of whatever is being sung at United fans by Liverpool fans (be it munich chants etc) and regardless of the hatred between the two, do I think its ok that a small minority to sing the Heysel/Murderer chants directed at Liverpool? Do I think either team's chants at each other are valid? My opinion is that no okay, and that they are not. Regardless of any provocation. You have to put yourself above those idiots. Both sets of fans are in the wrong in my opinion. Equally as bad.
Now, with the same reasoning, regardless if a small section of United fans act all smug and annoying, and sing horrible things to us, is it then okay for us to sing Munich songs back at them to piss us off? No - I don't think it is. The initial provocative chants are wrong, yes, completely, and I don't condone that, but at the same time I also believe us rising to it and singing horrible chants back at them is childish. That's my point. You can't accuse the United fans of acting smug and annoying if you rise to their level each time.
For the record - I also don't think its right that United made a lot of their millions off the back of the Munich tragedy, but at the same time I'm not gonna sing a song about it and give it the attention that they want - i think it's wrong to use the 'munich' name in any sort of thinly veiled attacked at someone too, merely out of respect for those involved in the tragedy. It's classless, and its using something that means a hell of a lot to someone to anger someone else. Just in the same way I don't think its okay for united, despite all their reasonings, to sing songs calling liverpool fans murderers.
This is why I said it doesn't matter what the press do/what United fans sing/what other teams sing. I can only account for our actions. I cant account for others, and i shouldnt be expected to. If we want everyone to stop singing tedious horrible crap then some team somewhere is gonna have to let the songs die down, and why can't that be us? It's called being the bigger man and so on.
You have some kind of misguided opinion/agenda that we're the only team not allowed to chant horrible things and the media are picking on us without reason - however, i really believe that in the vast majority of the times that isn't the case. It's utter rubbish. YES - they overreact about Balotelli - though that's mainly just the mail - no surprise there, and YES, they're overcritical about our spending, but once again, they treated Chelsea the same way, so no surprises there hey? We're easy to beat - the money is a pretty welcoming stick....but, i do believe that the media will call out most teams with horrible chants and that no teams are allowed to do it, and no one has ever pretended they are. The fact of the matter is that
normally horrible chants come from the minority of the crowd and as a result they are pretty much ignored by the press, as there's a general acknowledgement from the press and most sane people possessing any level of common sense that
'you can't control every idiot' and these chants will always have a small place - i.e hillsbrough chants, heysel chants, hissing noises at spurs fans. So yes, these are mostly overlooked by the press. I've heard munich chants at City's stadium for ages, and its pretty much always overlooked, just like the heysel chants etc. T
However, I believe the ONLY reason that these recent chants have been brought to light is because it no longer seemed like the majority - and it struck me, it struck the press, and it struck most football fans across the country at the same time. It really stood out as the first time it felt like the 'majority' had sang a song relating to the disaster and only then, after people politely playing down the chants for years, dismissing it as the 'song sang by the minority - oh well!', did it seem like a problem - and this was no doubt helped by the fact that the Munich programme had been on the tele the night before. I was sat watching the game (i don't go to away games - go on, someone make a dig that suggests im not a true fan - yawn) and it was the first time i actually cringed and thought 'that doesn't come across well at all' - i actually knew there would be articles on it the next day given everything, and it really didn't surprise me one bit. I felt the same way - I was embarrassed. Hence this thread - I wasn't the only city fan - in fact, i'm in the majority...
So there you have it - my opinions and responses. Yeah I got a little angry early on in this thread, and I shouldn't have, and I apologise for that, but i still stand by my assertion that it's really really wrong to sing about these songs knowing that embedded within them there is a reference to a tragedy that really really upset and hurt a fuck load of people..
And the Russell Brand and Ross thing - give over. No, i don't give a shit. It was some tasteless jokes between two adults about one bloke sleeping consensually with another bloke's daughter. Christ - it couldn't be less comparable. No one got 'hurt'.
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