Ederson - is he good enough?

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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:56 pm

nottsblue wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:
Mase wrote:
Correct. Allison is dog shit. How many Golden Gloves does he have?

2

Golden Gloves aren’t the barometer of how good a goalie is. You could keep 20 clean sheets and not have a save to make in those games and concede 70 goals in the other 18 without making a save.

The defence as a whole is as important

Allison is not dogshit. Not by a long way. Distribution isn’t good but he makes a lot of saves


Exactly, it’s the reason I brought up the golden gloves and I was waiting for someone to point that out mate, thanks.

Putting the ‘one shot one goal’ on Ederson alone is nonsense. It’s the whole defence and sometimes midfield.

For most of our fans - when we concede it’s Ed’s fault, but when we keep a clean sheet it’s the defence. I suppose football fans are fickle.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby london blue 2 » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:02 pm

Liverpools defence and midfield are shite. But their keeper still makes great saves.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby london blue 2 » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:03 pm

Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:24 pm

london blue 2 wrote:Liverpools defence and midfield are shite. But their keeper still makes great saves.


Our defence has been shite this season. With barely any running from the midfield when Gundo and Kev play together.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:36 pm

london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


Week before he saved brilliantly from Coutinho and tipped a shot onto the bar.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby gmercer1 » Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:08 pm

Could be worse, we could have Pickford!
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Outcast » Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:33 pm

nottsblue wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:
Mase wrote:
Correct. Allison is dog shit. How many Golden Gloves does he have?

2

Golden Gloves aren’t the barometer of how good a goalie is. You could keep 20 clean sheets and not have a save to make in those games and concede 70 goals in the other 18 without making a save.

The defence as a whole is as important

Allison is not dogshit. Not by a long way. Distribution isn’t good but he makes a lot of saves


True, but the record books will still show 3 golden gloves and 4 Premier leagues.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby zuricity » Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:40 pm

london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


No . As I pointed out to our goalie over 25 years ago. We don't need a goalie, if we do our jobs properly. If we cut out our mistakes he should be bored stiff hanging around between the goalposts. I don't want any goalie of ours making match winning saves. I don't want the opposition to get the shot or header in .
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby ayrshireblue » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:26 am

zuricity wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


No . As I pointed out to our goalie over 25 years ago. We don't need a goalie, if we do our jobs properly. If we cut out our mistakes he should be bored stiff hanging around between the goalposts. I don't want any goalie of ours making match winning saves. I don't want the opposition to get the shot or header in .


Bang on, the keeper only has a save to make if someone else has mad a mistake further up the park. On the flip side though I am finding it really hard to think of many keepers who are actually good at making saves and don't suffer from making an absolute howler every third game. A steady keeper is all we need and due to our style Pep has went for one who can play a pass and read the game and accepts that sometimes it will bite him on the arse, but only if someone else in the team has made a mistake.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Nickyboy » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm

Mase wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


Week before he saved brilliantly from Coutinho and tipped a shot onto the bar.


He makes plenty of saves - just human nature for negative things to stick in peoples minds
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:32 pm

Nickyboy wrote:
Mase wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


Week before he saved brilliantly from Coutinho and tipped a shot onto the bar.


He makes plenty of saves - just human nature for negative things to stick in peoples minds


Very true. Haaland is being portrayed in the media as shit now for his miss on Saturday. Nothing about the 68846389 goals he’s scored this season.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby PeterParker » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:58 pm

Nickyboy wrote:
Mase wrote:
london blue 2 wrote:Anyway, to be clear I’m not an ederson hater by any stretch. But I am starting to question his shot stopping ability (or lack of) in the big moments.

I’ve also made it clear that I think the team was to blame for sat. But wouldn’t it be nice to have him make one or two match saving saves now and again.

Instead all we see is good footwork and picking the ball out of the net.


Week before he saved brilliantly from Coutinho and tipped a shot onto the bar.


He makes plenty of saves - just human nature for negative things to stick in peoples minds


The thing is you expect him to save some situations when there is a howler in defense and when somebody fucks up. And in most cases he doesn't. And again, I think is his concentration.
We control 90% of games, but in that 10% he needs to be awake and focused. And he isn't.

But that is the thing with Pep. His regimes had 4 keepers and only one was world-class, Neuer.
Valdes, Bravo were calamities.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby london blue 2 » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:39 pm

Ederson doesn’t do that. :lol:
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:44 pm

Big Alison error tonight….
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby london blue 2 » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:54 pm

Mase wrote:Big Alison error tonight….

From both. Makes you (me) wonder huh
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Outcast » Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:29 pm

london blue 2 wrote:
Mase wrote:Big Alison error tonight….

From both. Makes you (me) wonder huh


:?
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Sideshow Bob » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:10 pm

sure even the best keepers make mistakes. the difference is that they also make saves they have no right to make and will bail their teams out of jail more often than not. does ederson do that for us?
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Mase » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:28 pm

Sideshow Bob wrote:sure even the best keepers make mistakes. the difference is that they also make saves they have no right to make and will bail their teams out of jail more often than not. does ederson do that for us?


Yeah mate. Villa game would have been 3-3 if it wasn’t for him.
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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby AFKAE » Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:35 pm

A bit long, good luck wading through it all!

Ederson a cause and symptom of Manchester City’s problems
The goalkeeper has made a number of glaring mistakes this season but the way Pep Guardiola’s side are playing has not helped him either, says Hamzah Khalique-Loonat

Hamzah Khalique-Loonat
Friday February 24 2023, 9.00am, The Times
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The focus on Manchester City’s deficiencies this season has centred on a recent dearth of goals, despite the fact that they possess the world’s most ruthless finisher in Erling Haaland, and tactical tinkering across the midfield and defence. But Ederson, the goalkeeper, has endured a tough season which has been both a cause and symptom of City’s problems.


In Leipzig on Wednesday, the Brazilian misjudged the flight of a cross to allow Josko Gvardiol to climb above Rúben Dias and nod an equaliser into an unguarded net.

It was not the first time the City goalkeeper had made costly mistakes this campaign; since returning from the Qatar World Cup, Ederson has made a number of glaring errors. He was culpable for two goals against Tottenham Hotspur at the Etihad — a poor pass to Rodri led to Spurs’ opener, while a spilt shot into the six-yard box was followed in by Emerson Royal — and was bizarrely statuesque when Ollie Watkins struck past him a fortnight ago.


These instances compound a number of mistakes made before the World Cup too. Ederson would have offered more than a sheepish apologetic hand in the dressing-room after Leandro Trossard, then playing for Brighton & Hove Albion, struck an effort from outside the penalty area that beat him at his near post in October.

Similarly, he would not have looked forward to the post-match review of the Manchester derby, a game in which he deflected a shot struck at him into the path of Anthony Martial. And the first goal City conceded this season — a Kieran Trippier set-piece — was planted on the goalkeeper’s side.

When Ederson arrived at the Etihad, he was famed for his exceptional passing range. That quality has earned him an assist to Haaland this season and has been a key component of City’s build-up play in their defensive third.

But according to data from Opta, over the course of his career, Ederson is a statistically average shot-stopper. A metric called “expected goals on target” takes into account where a ball crosses the line and compares the likelihood of that shot being saved according to historical data. It is not an infallible statistic, but it is a useful entry point to gather information on a goalkeeper’s ability to make saves other goalkeepers would not.

According to the shots City have faced this season, the average goalkeeper would have conceded roughly 19 goals (18.8); however, Ederson has conceded 24. Per game that is an underperformance of 0.18 — in other words, roughly every 5½ matches this season Ederson has cost his side a goal.


Even if own goals and penalties are removed, like in the graphic below, Ederson still underperforms relative to where the shots ended in the goal.


However, over his 5½ seasons at City, Ederson’s performance in expected goals on target is almost perfectly average. Of the 488 shots he has faced, they have an expected goals on target value of 149.9. Ederson has (excluding own goals) conceded 150 goals.

However, for comparison, in the same period the Liverpool goalkeeper Alisson Becker has saved 23.9 more goals than the average goalkeeper would be expected to, or 0.12 goals per 90. In this season alone, Alisson has saved 9.3 goals more than average (0.45 per 90).

In itself this is not a particularly significant problem for City. Guardiola’s side typically control games to such an extent that they rarely concede chances and Ederson’s abilities with the ball at his feet outweigh his indifferent shot-stopping abilities. However, this season Ederson’s problems are part of a wider issue for City, who are conceding chances at a far higher rate than in recent years.

Expected goals — a measure of chance quality according to the position shots are taken — demonstrate this. Since Ederson joined the club, only in the 2019-20 season — when Liverpool won the league — have City given away a higher quality of chances per game than this season.


Interestingly, Ederson is not just being called upon to make saves, he is engaged far more often in possession. His defensive team-mates are far more willing to pass back to the goalkeeper than they have been in recent seasons.


With a higher volume of passes at the back comes more risk in the form of pressure from opponents and misplacing passes, as shown in Tottenham’s opening goal at the Etihad last month.

Manuel Akanji (110), John Stones (84) and Dias (83) have been the three most prolific passers to the goalkeeper, though Nathan Aké (80) and Rodri (53) have also been more than willing to pass the ball back towards Ederson too. This is part of City’s wider struggles in moving the ball upfield more generally and their midfield malaise — and explains in part why Guardiola has looked to move Bernardo Silva deeper to assist in progressing the ball forwards.

As City are playing deeper, and the defensive line is unable to move as high as it usually does, Ederson’s defensive actions — such as tackles, interceptions and clearances — have regressed closer to his own goal than in any of his previous seasons, in turn mitigating one of his greatest strengths: sweeping.


The deeper City play, the harder it is to compact the field and press, and therefore the easier they are to play through.

If City wish to stop conceding goals so often, somewhat counterintuitively they may need to play higher, allowing Ederson to sweep and pick out the occasional pass as he does best, rather than taking an active role in possession.

In playing and pressing higher, the team may be able to keep opponents away from goal and be preventative in their defending, rather than needing to call upon Ederson in a season in which he is struggling.

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Re: Ederson - is he good enough?

Postby Indianablue » Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:59 am

More than good enough, i'd look to our ever changing defence before our keeper. Distribution from the back is superb. I'd like to see a few more old fashioned early long balls to Haaland though
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