City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrister

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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby john@staustell » Tue Oct 08, 2024 10:26 am

I've been keyboard warrioring it on the news sites especially the Fail. Trouble is, it sends an email every time someone likes a comment and there's a lot of City fans on there!

The worse thing is how incredibly ignorant some other clubs fans are
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby PeterParker » Tue Oct 08, 2024 10:35 am

What will be interesting to watch is the media.

In this moment we can see who is bent and who is not. The PR machine is in full motion. Saw earlier all over social media a promoted rant from Talkshite with John Bishop titled: ICYMI... John Bishop's INCREDIBLE RANT about Man City, their charges and Premier League is a MUST LISTEN!

I will be very curious to see who else is with us besides Samuel
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby sheblue » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:32 am

The Premier league is in denial.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Harry Dowd scored » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:57 am

Breaking. -:

BREAKING: Man City accuse Premier League of ‘misleading’ clubs over legal case. Letter sent to all 19 clubs - and League officials. https://thetimes.com/article/manchester ... -khg78rcl0

Source Matt Lawton Time
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Scatman » Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:57 am

blues2win wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13936107/Manchester-City-write-19-Premier-League-clubs-RUBBISH-misleading-claims-victory-civil-war-sponsorship.html

Man City General Counsel Simon Cliff has fired off a letter to all PL Clubs dismissing the PL’s statement as very misleading and warning against a rushed process to change the rules.


‘If any member clubs have any questions about the Award, we would be very happy to assist them as best we can,’ Cliff signs off.

Brilliant.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby salford city » Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:44 pm

john@staustell wrote:I've been keyboard warrioring it on the news sites especially the Fail. Trouble is, it sends an email every time someone likes a comment and there's a lot of City fans on there!

The worse thing is how incredibly ignorant some other clubs fans are


This John, as we've all become too aware is the issue with msm being allowed to peddle their propaganda and agendas. No thought from the great unwashed everything they're told is gospel. Well guess what boys and girls.....
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bear60 » Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:27 pm

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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby PeterParker » Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:20 pm

Bear60 wrote:A mate has just sent this to me .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... hairs.html


Can you share the text, pal?
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby salford city » Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:23 pm

PeterParker wrote:
Bear60 wrote:A mate has just sent this to me .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... hairs.html


Can you share the text, pal?


I could only see the comments section John St all over them
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bear60 » Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:05 pm

salford city wrote:
PeterParker wrote:
Bear60 wrote:A mate has just sent this to me .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... hairs.html


Can you share the text, pal?


I could only see the comments section John St all over them

Sorry i am not very computer savvy don't know how to do that I was educated in the sixties and seventies then I was in the army and have been a brickie most of my life, I just copied the link that he sent me, Its basically an article about the cartel clubs plotting against us and now its backfiring on them .
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby patrickblue » Tue Oct 08, 2024 7:13 pm

There you go.
Doesn't say any more than we already know, though.



How Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United's plot to take down Man City spectacularly backfired and now puts THEM in the crosshairs, reveals MIKE KEEGAN

Seismic ruling could have major financial and sporting implications for the clubs that gave evidence against the Premier League champions
Join Mail+ for more exclusive scoops, in-depth reporting and analysis from around the top flight

By Mike Keegan
Published: 09:18 EDT, 7 October 2024 | Updated: 11:48 EDT, 7 October 2024


When Arsenal executive Tim Lewis slipped out of the directors’ box and avoided handshakes at the Etihad Stadium after John Stones’s injury-time equaliser robbed his side of a vital three points, he may well have been cursing Manchester City under his breath.
If he was not then, he will be now.
On Monday, the results of City’s legal challenge to the Premier League’s Associated Party Transaction (APT) rules landed in 20 inboxes across the top flight. There was no score draw here. One word, delivered by the three experienced and former high-ranking retired judges on the panel, screamed out. The rules are ‘unlawful’. This was a victory for City.
Across 175 pages something else will quickly have become clear. What City had viewed as a cynical attack aimed at disrupting their era of dominance appears to have ended up spectacularly backfiring on the Gunners and other heavyweight clubs, who they suspected of leading the charge against them.
The panel’s key reasoning will no doubt hit hard at the Emirates and beyond. Arsenal were one of eight top-flight clubs who gave evidence on behalf of the Premier League and the system. The rules, the ex-judges said, were not lawful because they did not include shareholder loans.
Man City have won their legal challenge against the Premier League's sponsorship rules



Cutting through the legal jargon, and there is a lot of it, the trio basically found that because money pumped into clubs from owners in the form of borrowings, often at low or no interest, is not subject to the same fair market value (FMV) tests as commercial deals with third parties, the top-flight’s new and robust APT system is unjust. While hindsight is always 20/20, that nobody at the Premier League apparently saw this coming is breathtaking.
Why is this important? Why will the aftershocks of this earthquake continue to be felt for some time? The hearing was told that out of the £4billion in borrowings across the league, no less than £1.5bn comes in the form of shareholder loans. Almost half. In Arsenal’s case that’s an estimated £250m owed to Kroenke


As the panel heard, almost all of Brighton’s £350m-plus borrowing is in a similar format. At the last count Liverpool still owed Fenway Sports Group £71.4m from an interest-free £100m loan seven years ago to rebuild the main stand at Anfield. Across Merseyside and pre-takeover, Everton are currently subject to more than £400m in shareholder loans. Sums that, if the rules survive, may end up putting those who wanted this element of the Premier League’s profit and sustainability (PSR) rules to stand on the wrong side of permitted losses and thus in danger of points deductions themselves.
It was not meant to be like this. Following the Saudi-led takeover of Newcastle United, and in the midst of City’s four-in-a-row run in the Premier League, Arsenal and others at places such as Liverpool and Manchester United decided to lobby.
They identified what they believed were inflated sponsorship deals that City had signed with parties linked to their owners and cried foul.
The view among those advocating was that state-owned clubs like City and now Newcastle could circumnavigate PSR and use bumper partnership deals with Abu Dhabi and Saudi-based firms to inject vast levels of cash into the coffers that their rivals could not match - and thus give them an unfair advantage when it came to buying and paying the world’s best players.
As a result, the system on what are known as Associated Party Transactions (APTs) was toughened up considerably. It was no coincidence that the move came on the back of the arrival of the new ownership at St James’ Park. Within months, City felt the new reality bite when new agreements – including a bumper deal with stadium and kit sponsor Etihad – started to get pulled up and eventually blocked.
They had seen enough. Battle lines were drawn. A legal challenge followed.
As well as Arsenal, Liverpool decided to lobby against City

As did Manchester United

As well as Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United decided to lobby against City too

Everton are currently subject to more than £400m in shareholder loans - as this table shows
Sceptics will say this now opens the door for City and Newcastle to spend what they wish. That press releases will immediately go out announcing that each club is delighted to have penned billion-pound shirt sleeve sponsorship deals with Abu Dhabi and Saudi companies. That is highly unlikely.
But what happens next will be fascinating. The prospect of the rules being dropped entirely seems far-fetched. Indeed, the retired judges did make a number of findings in support of the amendments and toughening of the system. The panel pointed out that there ‘was a sufficient evidential basis for the Premier League to conclude…that the (old) rules were ineffective in controlling APTs’.

They also dismissed many of City’s claims, stating that Fair Market Value (FMV), while ‘not an exact science’, was an ‘inherent’ part of profit and sustainability rules and that there was no element of price fixing nor an unclear criteria.
But any amendments will need to be voted through and Arsenal and others may find themselves in a seemingly impossible position.
The panel was clear that the exemption of shareholder loans made the rules unlawful. While top-flight clubs may remain in favour of APTs, logic would dictate that those with who have them cannot continue to do so without the spotlight being shone on their own affairs. Should such interest rates on loans (deemed an agreement between a club and anyone with more than a five per cent shareholding) be hiked to commercial rates, it could put many in breach. Here, City’s lawyers had a strong point. They argued that such loans were ‘obviously APTs’ and ‘plainly not at FMV’ as they were often non or low interest or even non-repayable. They branded such an exclusion as discriminatory and distortive.
Sceptics will say this now opens the door for City and Newcastle to spend what they wish

Sceptics will say this now opens the door for City and Newcastle to spend what they wish
The case provides a major blow to the Premier League and its rules (pictured CEO Richard Masters)

The case provides a major blow to the Premier League and its rules (pictured CEO Richard Masters)
The Premier League’s case was that the shareholder exclusion permitted transparent investment by owners in clubs, was not discriminatory as it applied equally to all clubs, and treated shareholder loans and equity investment in the same way. And that it was right to be distinguished from sponsorship agreements with APTs that may contain a concealed subsidy.
The panel emphatically agreed with City. They found the exclusion to be ‘at odds with the whole rationale of PSR’. They added that it was not legitimate to draw a distinction between owner investment and the artificial inflation of commercial revenues and found the exclusion ‘discriminatory’. ‘It distorts competition’, they added, for good measure.
Any amendments will need to be voted in. While some attempted to portray this as City and Newcastle versus the competition, the reality is that others will need convincing. At the first attempt in November last year, 13 clubs voted in favour but seven voted against. Following an amendment, 12 voted in favour with six against and two abstentions. The resolution was carried by the barest of margins.
That was what City referred to as ‘the tyranny of the majority’ - but that majority may no longer exist. It is worth noting that along with Arsenal, United, Liverpool, and West Ham gave evidence in favour of the Premier League, along with Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, and Wolves.
The tentacles of this decision reach far and wide. It is, put simply, a mess. To make matters worse for the competition, there are other issues on which the panel sided with City. In another damaging swipe, the club argued that the Premier League was in a ‘dominant’ position and therefore had abused its power. In a key finding, the panel agreed, stating that this made the rules ‘procedurally unfair’. In finding the rules in breach of competition law ‘by object’, the panel highlighted a serious and damning infringement.
City also said the fact they were unable to access the databank of commercial deals across the league on which FMV would be calculated was unfair. That was the finding which led to amendments to the databank system being removed from the agenda of last week’s Premier League meeting, with the impact already beginning to cause issues. So what happens there, then?
Do the clubs now get to see the deals everyone else has done? Is commercially sensitive information now fair game? Can one club see how much a rival is getting and try to offer a better deal in future? Good luck with that.
Pep Guardiola's side took legal action against these sanctions that they deemed as a form of 'discrimination' in February - and after winning they are at least set to attempt to recover costs

Pep Guardiola's side took legal action against these sanctions that they deemed as a form of 'discrimination' in February - and after winning they are at least set to attempt to recover costs
Despite claim and counter claim, at the heart of the issue lies a simple argument. That the horse bolted when Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia were able to take over two football clubs. That this was an attempt to close the stable door with the horse over the hills and far away.
As the Premier League and its members sift through the repercussions, the separate case involving City’s alleged 115 breaches of financial rules continues, in its fourth week of 10. There will be no obvious knock-on effect but that is not to say there will be no impact.
City’s alleged rule-breaking sits outside the amended APT timeframe and so can be dealt with separately, hence why the hearing started before the APT verdict was delivered. However, the feeling of unease among those who want the club punished will only, you would imagine, grow.
Arsenal and other clubs identified what they believed were inflated sponsorship deals that City had signed with parties linked to their owners and cried foul

Arsenal and other clubs identified what they believed were inflated sponsorship deals that City had signed with parties linked to their owners and cried foul
City will now attempt to recover costs and potentially damages. This is an expensive business and it is the clubs who will end up paying should they be successful. That said, the legal fees triggered in this case will be a drop in the ocean compared with those currently racking up on the back of the 115.
Lord Pannick KC, who oversaw City’s fight against APT amendments, is back in action for the club. He does not come cheap and is not alone.
Mail Sport understands that some of City’s rivals were keen on an out-of-court settlement being reached, but that time clearly appears to have passed.
There is already collateral damage. More will follow. The battle may be over but the war rages on.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby john@staustell » Tue Oct 08, 2024 7:35 pm

Good article
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Original Dub » Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:34 pm

I love that article.

This is everything we've been asking for really, albeit we wanted city to strike out at every opportunity.

Looks like we were biding our time until war was declared publicly. Once the Premier League did that, we got armed to the teeth.

I don't know what's going to happen but it certainly looks like a massive turning point
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bournemouthcityfan » Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:32 am

It’s great to see the club hitting back in this way against the
forces that have been attacking us over many issues.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Scatman » Wed Oct 09, 2024 5:19 am

Read Martin Samuel's Black Knight article in the Times if you can. It's even better than the corpse in the car analogy.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby salford city » Wed Oct 09, 2024 5:48 am

Scatman wrote:Read Martin Samuel's Black Knight article in the Times if you can. It's even better than the corpse in the car analogy.


'Tis but a scratch' from monty python fame - don't have a subscription so will have to wait until some kind soul posts the rest
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby PeterParker » Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:21 am

patrickblue wrote:There you go.
Doesn't say any more than we already know, though.


Cheers, pal.
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Outcast » Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:53 am

Can we officially label Arsenal 'cheats' with their dodgy shareholders fiddling?

As for Brighton best run club in the country 'my arse'!
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bluemoon4610 » Wed Oct 09, 2024 7:42 am

salford city wrote:
Scatman wrote:Read Martin Samuel's Black Knight article in the Times if you can. It's even better than the corpse in the car analogy.


'Tis but a scratch' from monty python fame - don't have a subscription so will have to wait until some kind soul posts the rest

I've tried posting the lot in one go - didn't work do I'll try it in sections...
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Re: City Launch Legal Challenge Against PL Charges & Barrist

Postby Bluemoon4610 » Wed Oct 09, 2024 7:58 am

Martin Samuel
Tuesday October 08 2024, 8.00pm, The Times

There was a lot of confusion on Tuesday morning over Manchester City and the Premier League. With both parties claiming to have won, many observers were unable to decide whose hand to raise. There is a precedent for this. An epic struggle after which both sides, too, declared triumph. It is, of course, King Arthur’s meeting with the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Those who know the film will recall the Black Knight is last seen with both arms and legs chopped off, yet still defiant. “Come back here and take what’s coming to you,” he tells the departing king. “I’ll bite your legs off.” Some might call him delusional, although Richard Masters, the chief executive of the Premier League, possibly has the Black Knight’s picture prominent in his office.

Not long ago Masters informed at least one club official after the league’s defeat in an arbitration hearing with Leicester City that he did not believe his rulebook contained loopholes. This despite headlines such as “Loophole leaves Leicester City free and clear on PSR rules and Premier League embarrassed” and “Leicester avoids PSR penalty thanks to relegation loophole”. Then there was the commentary of Nick De Marco KC, who successfully represented Leicester. “Some people say it’s a technicality, a loophole,” De Marco explained.
Anyway, to more recent matters. If the Black Knight genuinely is steering policy for the Premier League, it seems only right to look deeper at what those strategies may be. And best to start at the very beginning.

And this is pretty much the principle on which most of football’s financial regulation is based. None shall pass … Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Bayern Munich, Juventus, all of the clubs that had it their way for so long. Heaven forbid anyone passes them. The established elite were the ones that selflessly helped Uefa draft its rules, neatly pivoting so that the initial target — debt — became less of a crime than owner investment. One day, maybe, the former Manchester United chief executive David Gill will explain what was in it for all of the clubs, but we can certainly work out what was in it for his.

Anyway, when Jamie Herbert, the Premier League director of governance, gave evidence to the arbitration panel, he explained: “Following the financial difficulties faced by Portsmouth Football Club in 2009-10, which went into insolvency, the Premier League considered the introduction of financial regulations designed to require clubs to be profitable in order to achieve sustainability by limiting a club’s aggregate losses over three years.” And his version of events was accepted. No doubt Herbert believes it too. He was still completing his training at Bird & Bird in 2007 — so three years before Portsmouth’s collapse — when financial controls were first being discussed.

By then La Direction Nationale du Contrôle de Gestion was regulating football finances in France — Lyon won the league seven years straight as a result — and I wrote a column in this newspaper calling the plans of Europe’s elite clubs “protectionist”. The first time I referred to Financial Fair Play (FFP) in negative terms was June 30, 2008 — so again before Portsmouth went under — when Bayern were pressing to tie spending to turnover. So FFP, PSR (the Profitability and Sustainability Rules), APT (associated party transactions) and all the other initials used to disguise what is basically protectionism didn’t come in because its masterminds gave a damn for Portsmouth. It arrived because they were terrified of Roman Abramovich at Chelsea — and later Sheikh Mansour at Manchester City and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund at Newcastle United — and feared that they would muscle in on their patch.

And here’s something I wrote on February 17, 2020, about the rules and why they were introduced: “This was about resisting competition at the top of football’s pyramid, not helping the little guys. You want to stop Portsmouth’s fall happening again? Ban director loans. The reason the club got into trouble was that its owner, Alexandre Gaydamak, financed significant investment through loans to cement Portsmouth’s place in the Premier League and challenge for honours. Then, when his personal circumstances changed, he wanted that money back. The club did not have it because it was the product of Gaydamak’s wealth, not theirs, and the collapse began. In 2010 it was reported that Gaydamak was demanding £32million. One would think that if preventing the next Portsmouth was a priority of FFP, loans by owners — not a gifted investment, which is entirely different, because there is no payback — would be outlawed, but no.”

So that’s the history. And if you want to know why the Portsmouth origin story always goes unchallenged, it is because 17 years ago almost nobody gave a stuff or saw where FFP was going.

The Python’s target, plainly, was the human capacity for self-delusion and there’s plenty of that at the Premier League. Plenty of questions their supporters are not answering, too. Here’s a good one. The panel delivered its verdict on Wednesday, September 25. The Premier League made these findings public on Monday, October 7, a full 12 days later. By the end, City were threatening to release the report to the 19 clubs unilaterally, so frustrated were they by the Premier League’s delaying tactics.

Now, if the league had won big, if City’s gains were merely “discrete elements” as was suggested — why the hold-up? The league should have been shouting its triumph from the rooftops ASAP, surely? Instead, it was City driving to publish, City who were insistent on getting the material out. It was why they took a direct approach on Monday, contacting the clubs to dispute the league’s interpretation of the verdict. At one point there was fear that the Premier League might even try to delay the panel’s findings beyond 2024. This does not sound like the behaviour of winners.

Nor does the convening of an emergency meeting, now scheduled for next week. Equally, if City’s victories were inconsequential, why will the Premier League be calling each club “in the next 48 hours” to discuss the ramifications? None of it fits the narrative that we should all move along because there is nothing to see. The wound appears more than just a scratch.

There are two explanations for the hurried schedule. The first is that the league wishes to maintain its pretence of business as usual, as if this can all be wrapped up in a couple of Zoom calls. The second is that it is genuinely head-in-the-sand unaware of potential consequences, such as further legal action. When there was talk of the Conservative government hurrying through legislation on a regulator for football before the last election, here is what Masters, writing in this newspaper, had to say. “It is a risk to rush through complex legislation at the end of a parliament, especially when there is a danger of it unbalancing our national sport. The past tells us that rushed legislation is usually bad legislation.”

And yet, six months on, a rulebook that has been declared in part unlawful can be patched up in little more than a week? This is what got us here. The rushed, updated APT rules that were the panicked reaction to the Saudi takeover at Newcastle. It was interesting that the Premier League now seems to be rowing back on this bullishness, briefing that there would be no votes at the meeting, only discussions.

As for consequences, well surely an injunction from Manchester City is one. The tribunal is still sitting, in terms of legal considerations, still available for appeals and clarifications. If the Premier League thinks all that is needed is tweaks and tinkering it is possible it could be required to rule again. Being found to have abused a dominant position — as the league was — most certainly leaves it open to a further challenge. Again, not just a flesh wound.

Much discussion has centred on all the points Manchester City lost, as if this were a tennis match. When scoring a tennis match, each play is equal. A fabulous 27-shot rally is marked no differently to a bland return of serve into the net. It’s all 15-love, deuce and advantage. Legal hearings are not like that. Some shots do count more. A man charged with six counts of murder can be innocent of five and guilty of one. It’s the one that matters. Same with accusations around unlawfulness. City did not need to succeed in every challenge, just one. By bragging about all of its victories, as if these were tennis points, the Premier League put a positive spin on some significant reverses.

On Tuesday Christian Brueckner, the prime suspect in the abduction of Madeleine McCann, was cleared of sex offences involving five other girls and women. Yet were he to be charged, tried and found guilty in the McCann case, the verdict is still: he’s a monster. And this is not to equate crimes or procedures, obviously, just the basic principle. There is a reason that page 164 of the judgment — which begins: “For the above reasons we, Sir Nigel Teare, Christopher Vajda KC and Lord Dyson hereby award and declare…” — lists not the Premier League’s many successes in standing its ground, but the seven judgments that amount to unlawful, unlawful, unlawful, unfair, unfair, unreasonable, unreasonable. These are not discrete elements, as the Premier League claims, they are not 15-15 or 30-30. In law, some winners get more points than others.

The make-up of the Financial Controls Advisory Group (FCAG) that will first discuss the arbitration ruling makes for interesting reading. There is Tim Lewis, Arsenal’s executive vice-chairman, last seen storming out of the Manchester City directors’ box in disgust when his team conceded in injury time and representing one of the clubs that provided a witness statement on the Premier League’s behalf; Cliff Crown, the chairman of Brentford, one of the clubs that provided a witness statement on the Premier League’s behalf; Todd Boehly, the co-owner of Chelsea; Steve Parish, the chairman of Crystal Palace; Alistair Mackintosh, the chief executive of Fulham, one of the clubs that provided a witness statement on the Premier League’s behalf; Billy Hogan, the chief executive of Liverpool, one of the clubs that provided a witness statement on the Premier League’s behalf; Daniel Levy, the chairman of Tottenham Hotspur, one of the clubs that provided a witness statement on the Premier League’s behalf; and Ingo Bank, the chief financial officer of Manchester City.

Masters, rapidly emerging as a courtroom winner on a par with Rebekah Vardy, may also be in attendance, and — who knows? — there may be a rare sighting of the league’s chairwoman Alison Brittain. According to the Premier League: “The FCAG played a key role in the process that led to permanent rule amendments being proposed and passed at the December 14, 2021 shareholders’ meeting.” That would be the rules that have just been declared unlawful, then. Still, it’s another great victory for governance. Maybe they’ll vote to bite City’s legs off.
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