john68 wrote:I keep saying this but everyone keeps going back to Platini and UeFA. They are not a problem. They have little power as was proven when they rolled over to the wishes of the original cartel group and gave them what they wanted without a murmur.
Those decisions; the restructuring of the CL into the (originally) 2 league system, the setting up of qualifying rounds to get rid of the smaller clubs, the bigger payments to clubs from England, Germany, Italy and Spain was to the detriment of every club from every country outside those four. They succeeded in getting all this actioned without any objections. UeFA caved in, because the cartel threatened to walk away and set up their own superleague....and not even a whimper from anyone was heard.
It is the "give us what we want or we leave" threat which is still real. It was about greed initially, now it is about their survival. Without maximising their CL (or superleague) profits, some major European clubs could go to the wall. We have become a direct threat to them.
UeFA is not the problem. The cartel is. Does anyone really think the rags are going to sit by and cheer us on as we threaten to overtake them and take the huge slice of cash that they need to stay in business?
edge275 wrote:john68 wrote:I keep saying this but everyone keeps going back to Platini and UeFA. They are not a problem. They have little power as was proven when they rolled over to the wishes of the original cartel group and gave them what they wanted without a murmur.
Those decisions; the restructuring of the CL into the (originally) 2 league system, the setting up of qualifying rounds to get rid of the smaller clubs, the bigger payments to clubs from England, Germany, Italy and Spain was to the detriment of every club from every country outside those four. They succeeded in getting all this actioned without any objections. UeFA caved in, because the cartel threatened to walk away and set up their own superleague....and not even a whimper from anyone was heard.
It is the "give us what we want or we leave" threat which is still real. It was about greed initially, now it is about their survival. Without maximising their CL (or superleague) profits, some major European clubs could go to the wall. We have become a direct threat to them.
UeFA is not the problem. The cartel is. Does anyone really think the rags are going to sit by and cheer us on as we threaten to overtake them and take the huge slice of cash that they need to stay in business?
What amazes me is that 3 of the top 4 clubs (barring Chelsea) have been ALLOWED to become so dependent on the CL money.
Let's take Arsenal as an example. I have seen, heard, read from several sources that they need to qualify into the CL each and every year to manage paying the money back for their stadium.
Who in their right mind lent them that money on that basis? From what I can remember they've lent the money over either 20 or 25 years.
So in order to pay it back they have to qualify for the Champions League for the next 25 years?
They have little money for transfers so are relying on Wenger's and their scouts' genius of plucking young players up for peanuts and turning them into superstars. When they went to the bank was their business plan an A4 piece of paper with "ARSENE WENGER" written in bold at the front?
As for Hicks, Gillette and the Glazers how have they been allowed to load their respective clubs up with so much debt?
No wonder we're in a credit crunch with madness like this around.
lythamblue wrote:Firstly, this won't ever happen because there is far too much commercial stuff to unravel and too many Clubs would have an opinion.
If it did, the following from 'Abu Dhabi' is just one of many easily thought out suggestions which could be brought into play and would tie the courts up for years as to the legitimacy and practicality.Abu Dhabi wrote:Eh, Al-Jazira will buy all City Players and loan them back on a free.
300M profit and no wages to pay..
Also, we could have whatever income we need just by increasing the amounts we get sponsored by companies which are also privately owned by the Sheik. It would actually suit them from an international tax point of of view ..... any of the Sheik's businesses which were having a good year could all of a sudden decide to sponsor our stadium for 25 mill or even our corner flags and Carrington tea ladies for a similar amount of money just to cook the books in which ever way Eufa wanted to read them.
If that wasn't enough, the Sheik could decide to have his own box for his family (or even a chosen list of charities) ...... and the Club could charge him £50 mill a year for it.
You see, give me another 10 mins and I could come up with dozens of similar suggestions as to how our income can be inflated whichever way we need it to be.
Good debate material ..... but don't worry about it.
What's far more worrying is reducing the amount of EPL clubs from 4 to 3 (and maybe even lower) or this 6 + 5 rule they are talking about .
john68 wrote:Ted,
I posted earlier that I thought any threat was being generated from within the present English top four and that they were using their cohorts in the cartel to assist them politically.
I also added that I cannot see that we pose any threat to the European based clubs in the cartel. In fact, for them it may be beneficial to deal with City...a club that can pay its way...rather than the present four who have major debt problems.
With regard to the funding of a breakaway Euro Super league, it would be not only self funding, but a very lucrative product to sell on the World market. The World TV rights alone would generate massive amounts of money through Worldwide sales. TV audiences and marketting of merchandise. Such a major league containing the European giants, playing each other on a weekly basis could be the football product that broke the USA market.
Though I see this as a serious threat and I see our weakness as the new kids/threat on the block, there are steps we can take to overcome it. The most important is to make allies. I do not feel it is inevitable that we will be shut out.
Socrates wrote:Original Dub wrote:
What, another prophecy you made coming true? Please!
No matter how you paint it, its 9 points from 9 with no goals conceded.
How does that compare to your 'saviours' I listed above?
Very very favourably, just like I predicted.
Ciao.
Very fortunate not to concede 2 goals and only have 5 points. Against 3 poor teams. Way too soon to draw any conclusions. And as for the "list" you are including managers, such as Zico, that I had advocated long before the takeover, when we couldn't manage to attract world class managers. Now please list the trophies won by Mark Hughes as a manger and tell me why he is such a good choice and so much more qualified than the 2 managers I have promoted since the takeover - namely Mancini or Rijkaard?
mcfc1632 wrote:Just a quick post - and a quick plea from Cyprus - just to stop me reading too many posts that make me think ... please stop!!
I can see lots of good debate - that is all great - although I am amazed that people are still posting anything about the debt of the RAGS and Liverpool - guys - this is simply not an issue - care has been taken to ensure that it is not an issue - for the avoidance of doubt : the size of the debt of these clubs is absolutely no issue to these proposals - is that clear!!
Also - I keep seeing repeated comments about legal action / European law / Bosman type - etc - please guys stop doing this.
If someone on here is a qualified expert in conducting commercial business under European law - then please put your hands up - until then I will offer that I have 20 years experience of major business transactions (GBP Billions)under European law and have felt concerned enough about these potential regulations to email a good friend who is a practising lawyer in European law and has been for 30 years - our views are clear:
THERE IS LITTLE / NO REASON WHY THE EUROPEAN COURTS WOULD BE REMOTELY INTERESTED IN THESE PROPOSALS AS THEY DO NOT CONTRAVENE ANY EXISTING OR PLANNED EURPOEAN LEGISLATION - IS THAT CLEAR - (whereas the opposite was the case with Bosman) - UeFA would have to be very clumsy in the way these plans are introduced for this to be the case and they have time to make sure this does not happen
Not moaning here just trying to help - for what its worth I am firmly in the camp of those who are concerned - it is the intent which we should be concerned about - which I think comes mainly from Liverpool and Scum (they are desperate - they will go bust without CL) - acting to get Chelsea onside - and the intent is how they stop CITY using Uefa and they can develop this thinking until they have a balance that is right - you can already see how every one of the proposals are tailored to stop CITY but not inpede scum / scouse etc
IMO we need to get cosy with some big European players and even (bad taste I know) UeFA to make it an isloated English problem and remove the support of the clubs from other countries
Original Dub wrote:Socrates wrote:Original Dub wrote:
What, another prophecy you made coming true? Please!
No matter how you paint it, its 9 points from 9 with no goals conceded.
How does that compare to your 'saviours' I listed above?
Very very favourably, just like I predicted.
Ciao.
Very fortunate not to concede 2 goals and only have 5 points. Against 3 poor teams. Way too soon to draw any conclusions. And as for the "list" you are including managers, such as Zico, that I had advocated long before the takeover, when we couldn't manage to attract world class managers. Now please list the trophies won by Mark Hughes as a manger and tell me why he is such a good choice and so much more qualified than the 2 managers I have promoted since the takeover - namely Mancini or Rijkaard?
Ah very good, you're another one of those funny people - "if that hadn't hit the post it could have been a goal" Ifs ands or buts - that only apply to the opposition - is that how we play this game? Or does our team get a slice of the action too? Like the perfectly good goal that Micah scored, or the two very viable penalty shouts? That was only the last game by the way... What about Ireland's one on one that he scuffed? No, this is a fucking STUPID game and one that goes on in school yards all across the world. Lets leave them carry on like kids...
Mark Hughes hasn't won any trophies yet. Does that mean you're right? Does that mean we should have hired Van Gaal who looks like he's about to get fucked out of Bayern because of their WORST START SINCE THE ICE AGE? Or Mancini, who is currently out of work? Or Rikjard who went to a shit league because no one else wanted him? One manager that's past it and two that were marquee managers who were handed teams that were already challenging for titles and funds to go one extra step.
Currently, Mark Hughes is fairing a LOT better than the 'saviours' you constantly went on and on about.
If that hurts, I'm extremely sorry for you, but life's a bitch and while I know its hard for someone who gloats like a prophet to be frequently shown up, I have to say....
THANK FUCK WE DIDN'T GO FOR THE MANAGERS YOU WANTED.
:)
Dameerto wrote:The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.
mcfc1632 wrote:Dameerto wrote:The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.
But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??
I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark
Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why
I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed
mcfc1632 wrote:Just a small admin point - all this Hughes discussion over the last few pages - should it (or could it) not be on another thread??
This has been a good thread - discussing an important point which could / may not have major impact for our club's future - would just like to keep that discussion going and worry that this is getting lost
john68 wrote:Socs,
You are right regarding the threat we pose to the European based cartel clubs. I should have said that I don't think they see us as a BIGGER threat than the one posed by the present English Top 4. The present Top 4 have always been able to generate funding ( mainly by increasing their debt) and have never had a problem with inflating players' wages whenever it suited their needs.
I can see positives for the European based cartel clubs in dealing with us. Transfers will be paid promptly and they know they are dealing with a club who has a stable financial base.
If the rags and L'Pool start to fade and fail strengthen, it will make their product less of an attraction . As City strengthen our attractiveness will increase.
You are right when you assert that we MUST get our books balanced...that is a big Must.
I also think money talks and it will be easier than you think to attract allies.
Ted Hughes wrote:mcfc1632 wrote:Dameerto wrote:The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.
But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??
I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark
Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why
I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed
Not the proposals that I recon would be a problem, it would be the sanctions imposed to enforce those proposals. What would be the implications of allowing an organisation to barr a business from competition because their owner puts money into the business yet allowing others who have already done the same to compete? Also how can an organisation demand to see the accounts of a company ie ADUG or whatever, that is the owner or sponsor of a football club, to see how they are financed ? Does that mean Berlusconi will allow them to see the accounts of his media company or Nike etc will allow them to see their accounts? If not the Sheikh can put as much money as he wants in through sponsorship, so therefore they would have to ban clubs who's sponsors won't let them see their accounts whilst letting others compete. Law suit.
Socrates wrote:john68 wrote:Socs,
You are right regarding the threat we pose to the European based cartel clubs. I should have said that I don't think they see us as a BIGGER threat than the one posed by the present English Top 4. The present Top 4 have always been able to generate funding ( mainly by increasing their debt) and have never had a problem with inflating players' wages whenever it suited their needs.
I can see positives for the European based cartel clubs in dealing with us. Transfers will be paid promptly and they know they are dealing with a club who has a stable financial base.
If the rags and L'Pool start to fade and fail strengthen, it will make their product less of an attraction . As City strengthen our attractiveness will increase.
You are right when you assert that we MUST get our books balanced...that is a big Must.
I also think money talks and it will be easier than you think to attract allies.
I'm not convinced at all John. We are a much bigger threat to them as our wages our higher than any previous English club and we have already shown we are a threat to even Real in the transfer market by being in there with a bigger and earlier bid on a major target of their's, Kaka. I think money is indeed talking but it is talking us into trouble not out of it!
Ted Hughes wrote:mcfc1632 wrote:Dameerto wrote:The board would be dead if people only commented on things they were qualified in. Feel free to skip topics that are likely to cause you too much frustration though.
But surely the point is that if posters are indeed qualified to give other CITY fans the benefit of their experience then this is helpful - no??
I listen to all sorts of good advice from other posters - grateful that they share their knowledge to stop me groping in the dark
Just some posters (not particularly meaning you) seem to like to spout on about things without any knowledge and indeed in spite of facts / evidence - some just like to do it to be negative - I do not know why
I gave the advice to help - stop people taking undue comfort from things said that are entirely misleading - thought that would be welcome - lots of people on this thread saying that the proposals would be stymied by European Law - when they do not know this and indeed this is not the case - just stop the real issues behind these plans being discussed
Not the proposals that I recon would be a problem, it would be the sanctions imposed to enforce those proposals. What would be the implications of allowing an organisation to barr a business from competition because their owner puts money into the business yet allowing others who have already done the same to compete? Also how can an organisation demand to see the accounts of a company ie ADUG or whatever, that is the owner or sponsor of a football club, to see how they are financed ? Does that mean Berlusconi will allow them to see the accounts of his media company or Nike etc will allow them to see their accounts? If not the Sheikh can put as much money as he wants in through sponsorship, so therefore they would have to ban clubs who's sponsors won't let them see their accounts whilst letting others compete. Law suit.
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