The Mancini Effect

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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby brite blu sky » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:12 am

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Our team set up as it is now is NOT creative. We created very little against Chelsea. I appreciate that few teams do, but neither did we at Sunderland or Wigan. That surely has to change. I would have utilised Ade, SWP and Johnson more, maybe even Jo. As we are at the moment we have seven of our ten outfield players essentially defensively minded,arguably eight depending on how you view Milner. On Saturday the only two genuine flair attacking players were Tevez and Silva. That being the case we can't be that surprised that we look so blunt most of the time. Tevez is without doubt a bigger danger when he has somebody to play off.


Piccs you might have a look at the Up Front thread.. as that is a debate about what is missing right now.

There are a lot of good responses here to your concerns and i cant really add any significant new ones. Personally i always take circumstances into account and Mancini since arriving has been shoring up our weaknesses.. initially in the 'crisis' of the half season and since more in the way that he wants things. If you ask me you are kind of wanting to run before you can walk.. and i would cite two things that suggest Mancini knows and understands your point.

One is the players he has bought, imagine the team with Boateng, Kolarov, Yaya, Silva and Balotelli all firing! then realise only one of those is really kind of up to speed.
The second point is what Bobby has said, that he wants an attacking team with 2 or even 3 up front. Now he isnt just going to say that for the hell of it, he is too experienced for that as everyone would hold him to it and he would be making a rod for his own back, he is not going to do that in the face of the fans and the English press.. no way.

We can't cite the Sunderland or Blackburn games as evidence of very much, we dominated but were not up to speed and got our feet caught in the cobwebs.

We can only start to judge what Mancini actually wants when he has the players he wants on the pitch and has shown the rest of the team what they are therefore expected to try and do, then we will know for sure and will have seen it.

All that aside i do share your ultimate concern that Bob's idea of attacking football is not what a lot of us might think is attacking football. Many times i have highlighted on here how uninspiring it can be watching a team like Barca totally dominate oppositions and kind of go through the motions of what they do best.. like robots ( albeit good ones ). If Mancini is trying to build a system that ultimately is going to compete with the very best in Europe then he may be taking some cues from Barca.. my concern is that we end up a bit like them and are unable to mix it up when it matters. That fear is allayed a bit by the idea that it wont work in the Prem and Mancini one way or another will be forced to adapt and will learn as Ted is calling for more direct football.

That concern is only a fear though and it is just as possible that Mancini already knows this and when he is able and has got the team able to play the pass and move game expertly, he will look to mix it up with the best traditions of the English game. He did after all also buy AJ and Milner and didnt let SWP move on.

If you think about it when all is settled we will have Boateng, Kolarov, AJ, Milner, Mario and SWP who are all capable of getting to the byline or inswinging a cross. Then Barry, Silva and Yaya who can all ping the floated ball in.
Players who can run directly at defences are, Tevez, Mario, Silva, Milner, AJ, SWP, Yaya, Kolarov, Ade (when he want to).

Getting it right in the final 3rd especially when we are dominating teams is probably the hardest part for the players to get, it will take a bit of time, but we will get there and i rekon we will see some sublime football at times. I hope that Balotelli is good with his head as it is as Ted is saying something we are desperately short of and with the ability we have to get the ball into the center we need that capacity in there. ( if Ade doesn't step up he is gone and then we can get someone who really wants to feast on the potential we have ).

So dont worry yet mate it is going to be good.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:12 am

Ted Hughes wrote:I believe that Mancini's whole existence as City manager has been leading up to this point. His overly negative tactics last season v defensively weak rags & a crippled, crap Arsenal (which may have cost us a cup & 4th place), his overly negative team selections & his daft team v WBA were all part of the plan; to eventually put in a performance like last Saturday's v a top team. He's been establishing a routine & a method. Now he's almost there. Whether he's right or wrong to do it that way is open to debate but it's almost done.

Imo (& I'm sure Mancini's) there's still room for improvement defensively (as we were very very lucky at set plays) but in other aspects, it's hard to imagine any team, ever, defending better against a team of that quality. Will the same performance beat Newcastle? I doubt it, we'll have to be better in attack. Same with many teams as the season goes on, but if we want to win the Champion's League next year, we need to produce performances like Saturday & we can't learn to do it next season & hope to get a result at the Bernabau, we have to learn it & practice it before then ie; last season & now. We EXPECT to be playing there next season & this is the prep work.

Imo, there has to be some point where the accent starts to go onto attack. It has to be soon or we won't succeed, as teams will stifle us & even nick embarrassing wins from set pieces. If we don't succeed Mancini will go, so there has to be attacking improvement, he's not stupid. Even if we win stuff; if we play shit football, the Sheikh will eventually change the manager; you don't spend billions to be bored. By that time though we'd be an established, winning club. It's a matter of time before we see the kind of football most of us want to see, one way or another.


Good man Ted.
That's pretty much reflected and dealt with most of my concerns very eloquently. The same performance against Newcastle this week is no good. It has to be with a greater emphasis on breaking down their defence. I worry though that Mancini will stick with his default mindset. I'm hoping that he does have an attacking plan and that the return of Boateng, Kolorov and Balotelli will allow him to put it into practice.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby ronk » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:27 am

It can be tough at times to look at the team and wonder if it's really the same team we all supported when so much has changed. It's weird to look at Kompany, Zabaleta and de Jong as the veterans in the team, especially when half the players they started with have left or will be leaving soon.

A few years ago we'd have been thrilled to get a result against Chelsea on that form, even if we had shown a tenth of the ambition. There have been some big games from our defenders and we've appreciated them for it. We set out to win that game, we played the break when available (as did they) but we weren't totally committed to that idea. For me, the marker of a team that's playing only for the break is when they make no effort to retain possession on the basis that the break is their only chance so you have to take the risk of giving the ball away cheaply.

We faced Chelsea looking to play, yes it was highly physical but it was generally fair and it certainly wasn't dirty. We have a lot of similarities in terms of system, they're just more developed in it. They haven't been having problems tearing teams apart, I don't think we will either, and not just because of fullbacks.

When you're learning the system you're more inclined to hold so we're not vulnerable on the break rather than bomb forward. Hence, our style of play is going to naturally become more attack minded as the defence settles and needs less assistance.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Kladze » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:55 am

All these negative waves ..........


We were playing the current league champions.
We were playing the team with a 100% record.
We were playing the team who had scored a record 21 goals in their opening five fixtures.

We won.
They created ONE chance.

'Nuff said.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:02 pm

ronk wrote:We faced Chelsea looking to play, yes it was highly physical but it was generally fair and it certainly wasn't dirty. We have a lot of similarities in terms of system, they're just more developed in it. They haven't been having problems tearing teams apart, I don't think we will either, and not just because of fullbacks.

When you're learning the system you're more inclined to hold so we're not vulnerable on the break rather than bomb forward. Hence, our style of play is going to naturally become more attack minded as the defence settles and needs less assistance.


This is exactly whats in my head.

We've spent two years gathering talent, (less than one under Mancini) now he is moulding it into a team, we are only just starting out.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Slim » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:46 pm

I think everyone was saying we would need time to gel and in taking this time we have managed to get ourselves into 4th in the league. Not a bad effort I think you'd agree. Add to this we are missing a lot of the jigsaw pieces due to injury and playing a style I don't think we'll settle on. After we start playing like a team I can see us adopting a 4-2-3-1 but for now I think we need the extra protection and reassurance of a defensive setup. And lastly we faced one of the toughest physical teams in the league and rather than trying to sneak a cheeky win, we went toe to toe with them and won.

Someone compared it to a cricket match, I compared it to chess and it was a true battle of wills, intense and enthralling. I loved every minute, easily more than whomping Liverpool.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Wooders » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:48 pm

I'd like to see him through a bit of caution to the wind against newcastle - would like to see ade and Johnno get a game alongside tevez and Silva - would mean dropping 2 of de jong, Barry, Toure and Milner - for me it would be most likely milner and barry
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Slim » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:55 pm

I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:14 pm

Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby john@staustell » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:32 pm

sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Sir Joseph is playing well at the moment, but he is a good level below Barry, DeJong, Yaya, Milner and Silva or Johnson, so I will be surprised if he doesn't get swamped in among that lot.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:37 pm

john@staustell wrote:
sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Sir Joseph is playing well at the moment, but he is a good level below Barry, DeJong, Yaya, Milner and Silva or Johnson, so I will be surprised if he doesn't get swamped in among that lot.


I totally agree, but then as we learnt against Blackburn it only takes one mistake or a split second and a player of Joeys standard gets through, thats why I believe we should field the same side for Newcastle that we did for Chelsea, defend, open them up at the back and destroy their below par defence on the break.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby brite blu sky » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:42 pm

sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Slim sums it up perfectly for me, dont care how we win the next few as long as we put everything into winning them.

As for the Barcodes, they tonked Villa but thats about it. Im not saying they cant be dangerous, but i would be surprised if they can get a foot on the ball and Joey wont know what day it is.
rags beat them, drew with Wolves, Blackpool beat them, Stoke beat them. They won against Everton 1-0. Im not saying we shouldn't take them seriously, but there is no need to make them out to be better than they are.

It is a massive game for our players as they have to prove they mean business with every single team.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Slim » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:44 pm

They also beat Chelsea 4-3 and while it was a reserve squad from Chelsea, Newcastle had similar changes.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:48 pm

brite blu sky wrote:
sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Slim sums it up perfectly for me, dont care how we win the next few as long as we put everything into winning them.

As for the Barcodes, they tonked Villa but thats about it. Im not saying they cant be dangerous, but i would be surprised if they can get a foot on the ball and Joey wont know what day it is.
rags beat them, drew with Wolves, Blackpool beat them, Stoke beat them. They won against Everton 1-0. Im not saying we shouldn't take them seriously, but there is no need to make them out to be better than they are.

It is a massive game for our players as they have to prove they mean business with every single team.


The teams that underestimate them will be punished, Villa are the only ones who have felt the wrath so far, but I have watched them quite a lot and I know they have more to give than most realise. We need to treat them like a formidable premiership side rather than like newly promoted minnows or else we'll have a boo boo.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Sister of fu » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:49 pm

Talk sport were debating this yesterday with Durham saying we were killing football but this time with our so called boring set up. He was saying he didn't want us to win the league playing how we played on Saturday and that we should play like Man United have in the past with guile.

I just could not agree with what he said as I think we played to our strenghts on Saturday which is being a strong defence unit. People seem to think there is no skill in the art of defending but I can't agree with that. We totally and utterly took the sting out of one of the most potent attacks in Europe and IMO that was done by hard graft, team ethic and spot on tatics. I was never bored at any point on Saturday and was intrigued by the game and the teams set ups.

Yeah 3-3 and 4-4 draws are all well and good for the neutral but they got our last gaffer the boot if I recall. I don't agree with everything Mancini does but he did very little wrong in my eyes on Saturday and is still getting cained for it. I would love us to wallop teams out of sight every week but I would also take lots of 1-0 wins if it meant a title or a cup.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:52 pm

Sister of fu wrote:Talk sport were debating this yesterday with Durham saying we were killing football but this time with our so called boring set up. He was saying he didn't want us to win the league playing how we played on Saturday and that we should play like Man United have in the past with guile.

I just could not agree with what he said as I think we played to our strenghts on Saturday which is being a strong defence unit. People seem to think there is no skill in the art of defending but I can't agree with that. We totally and utterly took the sting out of one of the most potent attacks in Europe and IMO that was done by hard graft, team ethic and spot on tatics. I was never bored at any point on Saturday and was intrigued by the game and the teams set ups.

Yeah 3-3 and 4-4 draws are all well and good for the neutral but they got our last gaffer the boot if I recall. I don't agree with everything Mancini does but he did very little wrong in my eyes on Saturday and is still getting cained for it. I would love us to wallop teams out of sight every week but I would also take lots of 1-0 wins if it meant a title or a cup.


Durham is clueless (Blatant Munich) tool, I was desperate to phone up last night but I held back, i'd have been cut off within a second if I had phoned up.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby brite blu sky » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:56 pm

sandman wrote:
brite blu sky wrote:
sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Slim sums it up perfectly for me, dont care how we win the next few as long as we put everything into winning them.

As for the Barcodes, they tonked Villa but thats about it. Im not saying they cant be dangerous, but i would be surprised if they can get a foot on the ball and Joey wont know what day it is.
rags beat them, drew with Wolves, Blackpool beat them, Stoke beat them. They won against Everton 1-0. Im not saying we shouldn't take them seriously, but there is no need to make them out to be better than they are.

It is a massive game for our players as they have to prove they mean business with every single team.


The teams that underestimate them will be punished, Villa are the only ones who have felt the wrath so far, but I have watched them quite a lot and I know they have more to give than most realise. We need to treat them like a formidable premiership side rather than like newly promoted minnows or else we'll have a boo boo.


Sure i take the point, and the reality is this is a test of the players attitude to take them very seriously. I am confident we will do that though tbh, i think the players have taken all the games seriously so far this season even if Mancini has not. The players know this is as important as the Chelsea game, and then the next one and the next one, it is going to be the test of whether we are mentally ready for a title challenge.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby sandman » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:01 pm

brite blu sky wrote:
sandman wrote:
brite blu sky wrote:
sandman wrote:
Slim wrote:I am sure we all would, but at this point I will take results over entertainment.


I totally agree, toon are a unit who know how to play tightly, they dont have the class to venture too far into the top half but they play smart and will take advantage if we expose our defence.

It is quite likely that Barton will be on fire, he will get an deservedly awful reception which could go either way. Andy Carroll is on fire at the moment and Kevin Nolan is scoring 1in 2. Also Carroll, Barton and Perch are all proving to be quite dirty so they will take any advantage they can.


Slim sums it up perfectly for me, dont care how we win the next few as long as we put everything into winning them.

As for the Barcodes, they tonked Villa but thats about it. Im not saying they cant be dangerous, but i would be surprised if they can get a foot on the ball and Joey wont know what day it is.
rags beat them, drew with Wolves, Blackpool beat them, Stoke beat them. They won against Everton 1-0. Im not saying we shouldn't take them seriously, but there is no need to make them out to be better than they are.

It is a massive game for our players as they have to prove they mean business with every single team.


The teams that underestimate them will be punished, Villa are the only ones who have felt the wrath so far, but I have watched them quite a lot and I know they have more to give than most realise. We need to treat them like a formidable premiership side rather than like newly promoted minnows or else we'll have a boo boo.


Sure i take the point, and the reality is this is a test of the players attitude to take them very seriously. I am confident we will do that though tbh, i think the players have taken all the games seriously so far this season even if Mancini has not. The players know this is as important as the Chelsea game, and then the next one and the next one, it is going to be the test of whether we are mentally ready for a title challenge.


Spot on, these are the games that have let us down in the past, we beat a big side and then go into small games over confident. If Newcastle are given the opportunity to bring it to us we will destroy them as soon as they spread out.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby brite blu sky » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:19 pm

Spot on, these are the games that have let us down in the past, we beat a big side and then go into small games over confident. If Newcastle are given the opportunity to bring it to us we will destroy them as soon as they spread out.


Well now you are touching on the debate of the moment, cos it is one thing turning up and taking it seriously, the other is that we have to find ways of either allowing teams to play a little bit in order to draw them out, or find ways of cracking them open if we squash them right back into their own area.

Teams will look at what happened to Liverpool when they thought they could come and try and play.
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Re: The Mancini Effect

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:38 pm

I will be choked if we take on a newly promoted side with little threat with the same negative style as we adopted for Chelsea. We are going to have to open them up, lets have the requisite flair with which to do it.
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