Mancini (The Ted Hughes and BBS thread)

[Tokyo Blue]

I watched the 1st half on the TV and then turned down the sound, getting the summary and 2nd half commentary from Radio Manchester. How different. On the TV, everything we did was shit, the commentators gave us little credit and were negative about us for most of the time with some comments suited more to their agenda than the reality of what they were seeing.

On Radio Manchester, Fred Eyre was much more upbeat considering that we had controlled most of the 1st half.

I wonder sometimes how much the words of a commentary sink in subliminally and affect our opinions of what we are seeing.

'kinell, they must have been truly appalling on ITV. That miserable sod Fred Eyre makes me want to throw a fucking seven.

Glad I chose the Dutch channel now.

I wonder sometimes how much the words of a commentary sink in subliminally and affect our opinions of what we are seeing.

A lot. I have read and heard stuff in various places that is virtually a parrot of what the likes of martin tyler, or worse still david fuckin pleat, has said in the commentary. I have started watching games either in a language I can't understand or with some music on. It improves the experience greatly.

Whatever happened to jaymoh? I don't miss him but he used to actually believe the shite the commentators came out with ("Sibierski is really good in the air") over the evidence of his own eyes ("Sibierski as a footballer has no redeeming features whatsoever"). And then he'd get upset with young Antoine when it became utterly obvious even to him that martin tyler was talking shit. Classic stuff.

[Tokyo Blue]

What should be happening is 1 or 2 players rotating through the team throughout the season to ensure that all areas are covered and that players get time on the field instead of just throwing 2 separate teams out for different competitions.

Very few sides have two quality players in every position, in fact none really do. The difference is; we keep putting untried or 2nd string players together next to each other, sometimes in all areas, at the same time. Other managers just use the squad system to fill the odd gap or rotate the odd player, we sometimes put 6 in who've barely ever played together, in pairs, in new jobs, in ever changing formations.

Spot on, both of you.

[brite blu sky]

john68 wrote:
I wonder sometimes how much the words of a commentary sink in subliminally and affect our opinions of what we are seeing.

Absolutely and it isn't just on what we are seeing either..

I had a gf who was adamant that listening to bollox stuff all the time has an effect whether you like it or not, aware of the effect or not. She was quite extreme in a sense and would refuse to listen or watch any negative or propaganda type stuff.. like the BBC.. news of distasters and murders and all the rest of it. I thought she was a bit hippy about it, but know that she has a serious point.
Maybe as result of that i dont listen to the commentators, dont watch BBC or Sky football programs and dont read much of the football press.

The amount of fans that i have spoken to who seem to get all their info from Sky is fuclin unbeleivable.. and parrot it like dummies.

Get a life, get a brain, get your own opinion

[Ted Hughes]

john68 wrote:
I wonder sometimes how much the words of a commentary sink in subliminally and affect our opinions of what we are seeing.

Absolutely and it isn't just on what we are seeing either..

I had a gf who was adamant that listening to bollox stuff all the time has an effect whether you like it or not, aware of the effect or not. She was quite extreme in a sense and would refuse to listen or watch any negative or propaganda type stuff.. like the BBC.. news of distasters and murders and all the rest of it. I thought she was a bit hippy about it, but know that she has a serious point.
Maybe as result of that i dont listen to the commentators, dont watch BBC or Sky football programs and dont read much of the football press.

The amount of fans that i have spoken to who seem to get all their info from Sky is fuclin unbeleivable.. and parrot it like dummies.

Get a life, get a brain, get your own opinion

I'm afraid I often come back from games being more critical than the commentators so I recon in general I'm not that influenced. In fact I've still not seen footage of the Arsenal game apart from Twattenburgs ridiculous decision but am still pissed off about it.

Re the changes we've all been discussing, Ferguson fucked up Utd good style today with his changes obviously to rest players for the game v us, but look at the back 4; Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic & Wesley. In front of them; Fletcher. Only change at right back, out of the entire defensive system.

[john68]

BBS,
Many years ago mate, I was watching BBC news pics of the Notting Hill riots. I saw a huge group of youths all charging down a road causing havoc. There were black and white guys in a pretty equal mix. I saw that with my own eyes. The BBC defined it as a "race riot", the press picked up on it. People started to refer to it as a race riot and a race riot it remained.

Tokyo,
A lot of people criticise Fred for being depressive but I think that as a blue, he usually tells it as it is. Usually he comments on away games when we tend to be under more pressure. May explains some of it Mate.

[Beefymcfc]

Seems Henry Winter's got the inside track through Brian Marwood. It also seems that the likes of Ade, Shaun and Wayne Bridge have limited time at the club, whether it be them or their agents. Me thinks Mancini's appointment is down to Marwood, what'd ya think?

Henry Winter: Manchester City need to remove the mercenaries, Roberto Mancini

The unwelcome skirmishing inside Eastlands is painted in ever more vivid colours as a dispute between the dressing-room and the manager, Roberto Mancini.

Closer inspection of the battle-scene canvas reveals issues between two or three disaffected players, certain rapacious agents and wealthy employers determined to run their business properly.

For many within football, whether players or their advisers, Manchester City offer gloriously rich pickings, a Klondike in Kippax country. To the surprise of few, it has become abundantly clear that some of the characters City have attracted are not those who will fight for the cause during difficult times. Some might say, to borrow a line from Oasis, that Emmanuel Adebayor’s second-half input at Lech Poznan lacked the required sweat.

After a dispiriting evening in Poland, Mancini spoke to City’s chairman, Khaldoon Al-Mubarak, and the Arabs’ support remains solid. Good. The last thing City need is another manager, another new start, another spin of the roulette wheel.

The heart of some players, not the brain of the manager, needs examining here. Embarrassing defeats to Wolves and Poznan were scarred by a paucity of unity, although sufficient commitment could be detected in the 10-man loss to Arsenal.

City’s problems are partly rooted in Mancini’s need for time to develop a pattern of play, for the dressing room to bond and also to weed out the mistakes made in the rushed recruitment programme. City need to expel the few mutineers from the mercenaries in the dressing room while dodging the verbal machetes thrown from the back pages by certain agenda-driven agents.

Some of the middle men aren’t stirring trouble. Faced with a client frustrated at not starting or annoyed by Mancini’s training methods, the better agents simply encourage their player to knuckle down, work hard, convince the Italian of their worth and don’t forget all that lovely loot gushing into their bank account every month.

“Not all agents are a pain,’’ stresses Brian Marwood, City’s football administrator. “There are good agents. They can offer a very, very good service to players. They unfortunately have got a bad name. Some can be divisive, creating situations at the club which disrupts individuals and what the team are capable of producing. It’s happened here.’’

Tension with certain agents has arisen over the past year because City’s Arab owners, feeling they were being taken for a ride, have negotiated (through Marwood) more toughly on agents’ fees. “This club had a habit of paying substantial amounts to agents,’’ adds Marwood. “That’s changed now. If they are doing a good service, I’ve no problem with them earning good money.’’ The sums remain generous but are loyalty-related. “They get between two and five percent of the wages but split over the deal; so if a player signs a five-year deal and leaves after two, you wouldn’t pay the agent the remaining three years [percentage].’’ That protects the club financially but not from the player leaving. Agents will always profit from transfers. “A lot of them make their money by moving players,’’ continues Marwood.

Ill-prepared for the negotiating table, players understandably need help to safeguard their interests. “When I was chairman of the PFA we had a lot of situations where players were put in difficult position by a (financially imperilled) club and the players’ union had to come and rescue it,’’ says Marwood. “I’ve seen how it can hurt players. Now I’ve seen how it can hurt clubs.’’

And City are hurting. Victory is vital against West Brom, whose under-funded, over-performing side provide an intriguing counterpoint to City at the Hawthorns. On Wednesday, a battling display against Manchester United is also important to quieten, however temporarily, the few dissenting voices within the Eastlands dressing room.

In analysing the work required for any new manager, Marwood draws on his own playing experience. “When George Graham went into Arsenal, he had Charlie Nicholas and Graham Rix there. He had to get a grip of that [culture] very quickly, so he brought in a group of players who were more conformist to what he wanted.

“Roberto is very disciplined. With the two training sessions a day you’ll always have players who have an issue with that. Players get into a pattern, dropping the kids off at school, taking the wife out shopping. 'I can’t do that any more because I have to train,’ they say. That upsets the rhythm. But we’d all give everything to be in that position. This is what players need to wake up to in terms of the life they have. These players are under contract, have obligations to our football club. They should train and play to the best of their ability.’’

Mancini has strictures that players must adhere to, according to Marwood, “whether it’s two training sessions a day, how we behave, the way players dress, being very punctual in when we report, when we go to hotels’’. Mancini’s pursuit of perfectionism even dictates where City are billeted before away games. “Roberto doesn’t like to travel any more than 15 minutes to the stadium. We go to certain places where you can’t get a nice hotel within 15 minutes but that’s his philosophy.’’

Whatever the grievances with some of Mancini’s practices, those few disgruntled City stars should remind themselves they are being coached by one of the finest footballers ever. Only Carlos Tevez, and Patrick Vieira in his Arsenal pomp, can be considered close to Mancini’s calibre when it comes to dominating a game. Two lightweights, Wayne Bridge and Shaun Wright-Phillips, are fortunate simply to be in the presence of such a footballing heavyweight, although neither Englishman sounds long for Eastlands.

One of football’s myriad truisms being lobbed at Mancini is that good players rarely make accomplished managers but exceptions can always be found. Another Italian, Carlo Ancelotti, is not doing badly. “I worked with Glenn Hoddle for six months at Swindon, and thought what a fantastic coach he was,’’ adds Marwood. “And Glenn was one of the best players this country’s ever had.’’

Mancini’s job this season is to secure Champions League football and bed in a collection of young players. City, commendably, are thinking long term. The few malcontents inside the Eastlands dressing room should grow up or go elsewhere, taking their trouble-making agents with them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-city/8114599/Henry-Winter-Manchester-City-need-to-remove-the-mercenaries-Roberto-Mancini.html

Good to see he blames our current form on the likes of Ade, the bloke who is actually scoring goals. Oh, and malcontent in the dressing room, you wanna try it from where I'm looking son!

[Feed The Goat]

I could of missed it but I didnt see Ade mentioned in any of that piece. He does however mention SWP which i find intriguing after something i was told the other day which i wont be repeating.

If there is a negative influence in the dressing room then they should be made an example of i dont care who it is

[Beefymcfc]

I could of missed it but I didnt see Ade mentioned in any of that piece. He does however mention SWP which i find intriguing after something i was told the other day which i wont be repeating.

If there is a negative influence in the dressing room then they should be made an example of i dont care who it is

Here you go mate:

For many within football, whether players or their advisers, Manchester City offer gloriously rich pickings, a Klondike in Kippax country. To the surprise of few, it has become abundantly clear that some of the characters City have attracted are not those who will fight for the cause during difficult times. Some might say, to borrow a line from Oasis, that Emmanuel Adebayor’s second-half input at Lech Poznan lacked the required sweat.

I think he's wrong, but Marwood may disagree (even though he bought him). Nice scapegoat.

[mr_nool]

I could of missed it but I didnt see Ade mentioned in any of that piece. He does however mention SWP which i find intriguing after something i was told the other day which i wont be repeating.

If there is a negative influence in the dressing room then they should be made an example of i dont care who it is

Here you go mate:

For many within football, whether players or their advisers, Manchester City offer gloriously rich pickings, a Klondike in Kippax country. To the surprise of few, it has become abundantly clear that some of the characters City have attracted are not those who will fight for the cause during difficult times. Some might say, to borrow a line from Oasis, that Emmanuel Adebayor’s second-half input at Lech Poznan lacked the required sweat.

I think he's wrong, but Marwood may disagree (even though he bought him). Nice scapegoat.

'
those were hardly marwood's words, though, but something winter added himself.

[Beefymcfc]

I could of missed it but I didnt see Ade mentioned in any of that piece. He does however mention SWP which i find intriguing after something i was told the other day which i wont be repeating.

If there is a negative influence in the dressing room then they should be made an example of i dont care who it is

Here you go mate:

For many within football, whether players or their advisers, Manchester City offer gloriously rich pickings, a Klondike in Kippax country. To the surprise of few, it has become abundantly clear that some of the characters City have attracted are not those who will fight for the cause during difficult times. Some might say, to borrow a line from Oasis, that Emmanuel Adebayor’s second-half input at Lech Poznan lacked the required sweat.

I think he's wrong, but Marwood may disagree (even though he bought him). Nice scapegoat.

'
those were hardly marwood's words, though, but something winter added himself.

You're right, but by the sounds of that interview he's got Marwood's hear so is able to express himself freely.

Like I said, I'm an Ade supporter. I'm not arse about how lazy he is (supposedly) but how many goals he scores, tap-in or not. And the fucker scores goals!

[the_georgian_genius]

another interesting article if true and it mentions the same players as Henry Winter

Remember when the school football team was being picked and the players who had been left out would bitch about the ones good enough to be given a shirt?

Well, multiply the machismo and testosterone levels by about a million and you will get the general idea about what’s going on at Manchester City right now.

There’s no player revolt at Eastlands, no revolution, no meltdown.

It’s all about a group of players who have spat their dummies out because Roberto Mancini just doesn’t rate them.

Mancini wants them sold, kicked out of the club and replaced by men who know what it means to be called a professional footballer.

They, in turn, know their days of feeding at the trough of highly-inflated wages are coming to an end.

Don’t believe the hype and hysteria that Mancini isn’t long for the Premier League.

Results, as always, will determine just how long the Italian will last at City.

Garry Cook and Brian Marwood will judge their manager on what happens on the pitch rather than rely on the word of some players who, quite frankly, are a disgrace to their profession.

The two best managers in England over the last 15 years have been Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger.

They have both got that priceless gift of being able to identify talent, nurture it, and mould it into a great football team.

But they have also been given carte blanche by the men in the boardrooms at Manchester United and Arsenal to take full control over team affairs.

Down the years, Ferguson has got shot of greats such as Norman Whiteside, Paul McGrath, Mark Hughes, Paul Ince, David Beckham, Roy Keane and Ruud van Nistelrooy after deciding they had reached their sell-by dates.

Wenger’s first job when he arrived at Highbury was to buy Patrick Vieira and warn the old guard of Ian Wright, Tony Adams, Nigel Winterburn, Lee Dixon and Martin Keown that it was his way or the highway.

Mancini won his first battle at City when he managed to ship Craig Bellamy off on loan to Cardiff for the season after deciding his talent wasn’t worth his temperament.

The noises coming out of Eastlands at the moment suggest that a night of the long knives isn’t very far away – and it will be Mancini wielding the blade.

[the_georgian_genius]

and another from Marcotti, funnily enough Winter and Marcotti are two of the best football writers around

It goes back to his playing days. Big hair, big talent, wrapped in the confidence and swagger of those who know they are different and who are not afraid to make different choices.

Roberto Mancini has always been willing to do things his way and that seems unlikely to change despite the mounting pressure on the back of three straight defeats at Manchester City.

It has been like that since the summer of 1982, when Paolo Mantovani, the Sampdoria president, paid an incredible £2.2 million to bring him to Genoa.

That is £2.2 million for a 17-year-old at a time when the British transfer record was the £1.5 million Manchester United paid West Bromwich Albion for Bryan Robson in 1981. Thus was born a virtual father-son relationship that would mark Mancini’s career. And the world had seen the willingness in him to follow his heart rather than his head, to embrace a challenge and take on allcomers.
Mancini’s decision to snub the traditional Serie A powers and join Sampdoria was unconventional, just as it was unconventional to stay for 15 years, moving on only after Mantovani’s death.

Along the way he scored 132 goals, helping Sampdoria to win four Italian Cups, the Cup Winners’ Cup and their only Serie A title, in 1990-91, when he formed a devastating attacking partnership with Gianluca Vialli. A year later, they reached the European Cup final, falling only to Johan Cruyff’s Barcelona “Dream Team”.

Vialli left for Juventus and then Chelsea. Mancini remained loyal to Sampdoria. How to read this unwillingness to change? His critics say it is “big fish in small pond” syndrome, akin to Matthew Le Tissier and Southampton, a reluctance to test himself at a higher level. Indeed, Mancini was the undisputed king of Sampdoria, right down to designing the team kit. Yet Mario Sconcerti, who gave him his first job in management, disagrees.

“I just think Mancini’s different, he has a different sense of history and achievement, he knows that, football-wise, he’s a genius and everything is filtered through that lens,” he says. “He won league titles at Sampdoria and Lazio, two clubs which, historically, never compete for the league. He knows that those achievements are worth more than anything he might have achieved at a bigger club. I think that played a big part in his decision to stay all those years.”

And, perhaps, that is what most excited him about the challenge at City, a team with only two championships, the most recent in 1967-68, and without any trophy since the League Cup in 1976.

Many were sceptical when he swapped Sampdoria for Lazio. He was approaching his 33rd birthday, he was leaving his comfort zone for the big city, the pond suddenly got a whole lot larger. And yet, in three seasons, he won two more Italian Cups, another Cup Winners’ Cup and the Serie A title in Lazio’s centenary year. retiring in May 2000, he stayed on as an assistant to Sven-Göran Eriksson, then, after a four-game return at Leicester City, he hung up his boots for good and took over debt-ridden Fiorentina, with whom he immediately won the Italian Cup and gained acclaim for his precise, attacking football.

He was gone six months later, as Fiorentina crumbled under the weight of their debt; Vittorio Cecchi Gori, the owner, would later be imprisoned for fraud and the club would go bankrupt. In the summer of 2002, he took over Lazio, another troubled side. The big spending was over, there was a sense of barbarians at the gate as the club furiously shed wages to try to stave off administration. (Here, too, Sergio Cragnotti, the owner, would later be found guilty of fraud and spend time in prison.) Many had them tipped to finish in the bottom half that season, but instead Mancini took them to fourth, regenerating misfits such as Stefano Fiore, Claudio López and César along the way. The next year, despite more sales, they were sixth. It was a different brand of football: short passing, an emphasis on width, a 4-4-2 that often turned into 4-2-4.

Inter Milan came calling and thus began a four-year stint in which he would win three league titles. His critics will call two of them tinpots, because the first, in 2005-06, was handed to him by a court after the Calciopoli scandal and another was won the year after, when Juventus were in Serie B and AC Milan faced a hefty points penalty.

Maybe so. But in his final year, when the playing field was level, he gained more points in winning the title than the man who replaced him, one José Mourinho.

At Inter he faced a significant rebuilding job, taking over a huge and ill-assorted squad. Again, he evolved tactically, introducing a diamond formation and building the side with which Mourinho would win his first league title a year later.

“I know him better than most and I was surprised by the pragmatism and tactical versatility he’s shown since going into management,” Vialli says. “You don’t expect a creative genius to turn into a manager who is so detail-oriented, so organised, so precise. You expect him to improvise, to rely on his instincts.”

The Inter experience ended on a sour note, one that highlighted Mancini’s dark side. After getting knocked out of the Champions League in the quarter-finals, he shocked the media in the wake of the match when he said: “The way things are going, I think I’ll only be manager of this team for another few months.”

One commentator described it as arrogance, the haughtiness of a spoilt child who throws a tantrum when he does not get his way. The mind went back to the 1988 European Championship, when, after scoring, he ran towards the press box and remonstrated with a journalist who had criticised him in print.

Indeed, Mancini, the child born with a silver spoon — at least in terms of talent — has been much more suited to playing the outsider role. He does not cultivate relationships in the media, few get close to him, even his agent is not one of the big power brokers. He is the blue blood who chooses to live as a commoner. And when he became a coach, it was something of a “back to the shop floor” approach.

Maybe that was because Mancini realised what worked for a natural talent such as himself might not work for the average professional. He had to learn to teach mere mortals. And, more importantly, to trust them“I think all top players face this at some point when they become managers, the idea that you see the game in a certain way or that you can do certain things that your players simply can’t,” Vialli says. “And it’s a source of frustration, because you want to say, ‘Why didn’t you just shoot from there?’ or ‘Why didn’t you just control the ball with the outside of your foot?’ or ‘Why didn’t you see that team-mate was open?’
“But, in fact, you can’t do that, you have to understand that you can prepare your players, but they have to take responsibility for themselves. And they’re going to be different from you. So you have to learn to trust them, to prepare them and to let them go, without thinking about what you might have done in their place. It’s a very difficult transition for top players to make and I think Mancini has succeeded in making that leap of faith.”

What has remained intact from his playing days is confidence. Look at his signings at City. Of the six players he brought in during the summer, only one, Yaya Touré, is older than 24. Jérôme Boateng and Mario Balotelli are expensive long-term projects who probably will not fulfil their potential for a few years.

These are the actions of a man who believes, whatever his critics say, that he will be there to reap the benefits when his side mature in a few years rather than worrying about short-term implications as he faces a treacherous trip to West Bromwich Albion tomorrow followed by Wednesday’s tumultuous Manchester derby at home.

“That does not surprise me,” Vialli says. “He never lacked self-belief. He knows he needs to deliver results straightaway but nonetheless chose players who have an upside, who can become even better with time. You don’t do that if you don’t believe in yourself.”

Sir Alex Ferguson famously described City as the “noisy neighbours”, moneyed outsiders gate-crashing the elite. Which is probably fitting. Because that’s exactly what Mancini did as a player, when he had the pedigree to join the elite but instead chose to help to turn also-rans into contenders. And, from there, into champions.

[Beefymcfc]

Why are the same players being picked out, yet they've had a hand full of games between them? Something doesn't compute!

[the_georgian_genius]

Why are the same players being picked out, yet they've had a hand full of games between them? Something doesn't compute!

I think it's more off the field antics than on the field.

[Beefymcfc]

Why are the same players being picked out, yet they've had a hand full of games between them? Something doesn't compute!

I think it's more off the field antics than on the field.

Agenda based?

[the_georgian_genius]

Why are the same players being picked out, yet they've had a hand full of games between them? Something doesn't compute!

I think it's more off the field antics than on the field.

Agenda based?

Definatley, fighting for their futures by causing trouble and not how it should be by performing on the pitch.

[MaineRoadMemories]

The North West focussed/based journalists do make me laugh. Most of the year they try to keep on the good side of clubs and run some nice stories but then the editor-in-chief based in London (probably an Arsenal fan) tells them to dig up dirt and run some stories everything crumbling.

You end up getting a right rum mix of articles - some being super complementary and other being cynical and nasty.

[Beefymcfc]

The North West focussed/based journalists do make me laugh. Most of the year they try to keep on the good side of clubs and run some nice stories but then the editor-in-chief based in London (probably an Arsenal fan) tells them to dig up dirt and run some stories everything crumbling.

You end up getting a right rum mix of articles - some being super complementary and other being cynical and nasty.

As seen in the MEN, week in, week out.

[Beefymcfc]

Why are the same players being picked out, yet they've had a hand full of games between them? Something doesn't compute!

I think it's more off the field antics than on the field.

Agenda based?

Definatley, fighting for their futures by causing trouble and not how it should be by performing on the pitch.

If I was Ade though, I'm not sure I'd be to bothered, his record speaks for itself. Shaun/Wayne Bridge, I can't see them complaining much.

[Ted Hughes]

Ade is always fodder for journalists whatever he does, as was Bellamy, but the fact that goody two shoes Bridge & SWP get a mention is most unusual & suggests they've been opening their gobs.

The thing about this stuff we're getting from Henry Winter now is that it's very similar to the kind of info Cook was feeding him & Oliver Holt etc last season. Very pro City establishment, backing the manager & the project, giving our side of the story v the negative media & shitstirrers. What we don't want to do after feeding him & one or two others this stuff & getting them on our side, is what we did last season which was to sack the fucking manager & make cunts out of them.