How do You Learn?

[Ted Hughes]

Ok, quite a few of us are getting stuck into Bob after last night & he deserves it tbf. Slim drew up a list of faults with the team & squad which has developed over the last few years & it's hard to argue with some of those details & that managers could have done better. However, if we sacked Bob tomorrow, will he make the same mistakes in his next job or will he do things differently? Or will he just plod on regardless? That's the key imo. Whether he takes on board his failures & learns from them.

Perhaps one or two managers don't make mistakes but I'd just call them lucky. All managers fuck up.

How does a manager improve if it's not through learning from their mistakes though? Ferguson tried about 4 different methods before they won the league, from all out attack with lots of direct ball to all out defence with direct ball, to defensive minded counter attacking to attack minded counter attacking & it still needed Cantona to make it work; a player solved it in the end, not the manager. He continued to try & improve from there.

If Bob stays; will he look at his mistakes & start to fix the very things we're complaining about? If the answer is yes, then are we not better sticking with Bob & giving him time to learn from his mistakes than a new manager who may get it wrong in a different way?

If however he's too stubborn to admit mistakes & learn (& Marwood etc should know him well enough to guage the answer to this) then will he ever get it right by following the present blueprint to its conclusion?

In my own opinion, he's got it wrong re pace, not enough concentration on delivery into the box etc to name just two (there's plenty more) but will he fix those things if we leave him to it? Does he, in fact, know that already but can't now do anything until the season is over?

Myself, if he's willing to learn & adapt I'd definitely keep him but ONLY if I can see evidence that he's trying to rectify the faults that we clearly have. If he plods on regardless, I don't think it's going to work.

So in a nutshell; will he learn & should we therefore keep him? Alternatively , is his current plan one that will work with perseverence so we should therefore keep him? Or is he on a path to failure & will have to go?

Sensible, non knee jerk or arse licking opinions would be interesting.

[lets all have a disco]

I believe he has bought these players without actually thinking how they go together.

The midfield is far too one paced,tippy tappy,pass pass AC Milan style rubbish that doesnt go anywhere.

The attack dont talk.

The defence is ok but still needs work on its positioning and moving as a unit.

Oh and he employed fucking David Platt.

[Ted Hughes]

To some extent I agree but will he see that & fix it & give us more variation if we leave him in charge? Or does he think this is it & we just need more practice, so he'll just keep giving us more of the same even if we give him more money?

[blues2win]

I don't agree. Silva isn't a 'tippy tappy' player. He's added enormously to our central midfield quality with his vision and lovely through balls. I'd like to see him score a few more goals though. Yaya when he's at his best offers strength and an excellent pass plus his surging runs. Neither of them are slow although Yaya needs to get up a head of steam; they're just not really quick. When Mancini came he inherited from the previous regime Barry ( now he is slow) and De Jong ( not the quickest) as his central midfield. Frankly unbelievable. Nowhere near enough creativity. It's much better now.

I think the problem is that Mancini likes to play two defensive midfielders and two other creative central midfielders with two full backs pushing forward to provide the width. Micah has got himself into good forward positions this season but we still haven't seen consistent quality delivery from a wide position. Kolarov is discussed on another thread. Since his tactical plan isn't working he needs a Plan B. That has to be playing really quick wide players or at least wide players who can beat a man with trickery, preferably both. Since it was obvious by the time of the transfer window that Mancini didn't fancy SWP ( and I can see why) it was obvious that unless he persuaded Cook and Marwood to go into the transfer market we were placing all our hopes on AJ. That was a bad mistake. We clearly need a really good young right footed player to complement AJ ( a two footed player would be even better). I'm not suggesting we should junk plan A for ever but it would be great to have the Spurs option of two classy wingers delivering quality ball to Dzeko. That's what he was bought for wasn't it? If the full backs aren't delivering the wingers can. Simples.

So why hasn't it happened? Did Mancini ask? Did Marwood/ Cook say no? Was it all about Financial Unfair Play? Or did the Sheikh draw up the purse strings ( given all he's done for the Club I cannot criticise him at all if that's the reason)

Answers on a postcard.

[Alioune DVToure]

He should realise that our performances, and results, have been best when the team was set up to play Tevez and Silva in a fluid attack. Playing 2/3 centre-forwards is making us too narrow (especially as we have no width with Johnson injured).

We should revert to this:

-----------------------------------Hart

Richards----------Kompany-----------Lescott------------Zab/Kolarov

--------------------De Jong--------------Barry

------------------------------------Toure

-----------------------Silva

--------------------------------Tevez

Richards and the other full-back can get forward at will knowing that Barry/De Jong will drop and cover. It's the only way we can get any width as none of our midfielders can play out wide.

Also, the neat movement between Tevez, Silva and Yaya up top was working a treat before Christmas. No room for them now.

Most importantly: Excepting Tevez, SILVA IS OUR BEST PLAYER. But he can only play off one up front. With two strikers, there's no room for him to keep going and get into space in front of them. This squares us up, making us rigid and predictable.

[Ted Hughes]

There's actually no excuse for Mancini that he's stuck with playing Barry & DeJong. He's had three full transfer windows to replace either or both. He chooses to play them, just the same as the previous manager did & he inherited Bellamy, Petrov, Robinho & Ireland as the creative players to go with them. He has replaced them with his signings & what we see now is what he's chosen to build. This is his team now.

Many of us seem to agree on the general changes & variations we'd like to see (& would like to have seen already) even if we have a different way of describing it. And of course it's interesting to get people's opinions on the details of how we see that.

Will Bob be willing to adapt though? If not, what do we do? Stick or twist?

[blues2win]

Not sure I'd play with 10 men mate. Where would you play the 11th. Milner out wide? Or did you mean that Kolarov and Zaba would play?

[Ted Hughes]

He should realise that our performances, and results, have been best when the team was set up to play Tevez and Silva in a fluid attack. Playing 2/3 centre-forwards is making us too narrow (especially as we have no width with Johnson injured).

We should revert to this:

-----------------------------------Hart

Richards----------Kompany-----------Lescott------------Zab/Kolarov

--------------------De Jong--------------Barry

------------------------------------Toure

-----------------------Silva

--------------------------------Tevez

Richards and the other full-back can get forward at will knowing that Barry/De Jong will drop and cover. It's the only way we can get any width as none of our midfielders can play out wide.

Also, the neat movement between Tevez, Silva and Yaya up top was working a treat before Christmas. No room for them now.

Most importantly: Excepting Tevez, SILVA IS OUR BEST PLAYER. But he can only play off one up front. With two strikers, there's no room for him to keep going and get into space in front of them. This squares us up, making us rigid and predictable.

I agree with that short term to get us through but Tevez will be knackered & Yaya is already. Also in the longer term we surely can't rely on that & will perhaps need Bob to come up with something new if we're to succeed? Will he?

[david yearsley]

Not sure I'd play with 10 men mate. Where would you play the 11th. Milner out wide? Or did you mean that Kolarov and Zaba would play?

Yep that line up is crying out for width and therein lies a major part of the problem

[Ted Hughes]

Not sure I'd play with 10 men mate. Where would you play the 11th. Milner out wide? Or did you mean that Kolarov and Zaba would play?

I was assuming he meant with A.N. Other in the AJ position.

[Alioune DVToure]

Not sure I'd play with 10 men mate. Where would you play the 11th. Milner out wide? Or did you mean that Kolarov and Zaba would play?

Yep that line up is crying out for width and therein lies a major part of the problem

Haha oops. It should've looked more like this:

----------------------Hart
Richards---Kompany---Lescott---Zab/Kolarov
--------------------De Jong
----------Milner---------------Barry
--------------------------Yaya
----------------Silva
--------------------Tevez

Also, in before the "Could play Jo but that would be like playing with 10 anyway" gag.

[Alioune DVToure]

He should realise that our performances, and results, have been best when the team was set up to play Tevez and Silva in a fluid attack. Playing 2/3 centre-forwards is making us too narrow (especially as we have no width with Johnson injured).

We should revert to this:

-----------------------------------Hart

Richards----------Kompany-----------Lescott------------Zab/Kolarov

--------------------De Jong--------------Barry

------------------------------------Toure

-----------------------Silva

--------------------------------Tevez

Richards and the other full-back can get forward at will knowing that Barry/De Jong will drop and cover. It's the only way we can get any width as none of our midfielders can play out wide.

Also, the neat movement between Tevez, Silva and Yaya up top was working a treat before Christmas. No room for them now.

Most importantly: Excepting Tevez, SILVA IS OUR BEST PLAYER. But he can only play off one up front. With two strikers, there's no room for him to keep going and get into space in front of them. This squares us up, making us rigid and predictable.

I agree with that short term to get us through but Tevez will be knackered & Yaya is already. Also in the longer term we surely can't rely on that & will perhaps need Bob to come up with something new if we're to succeed? Will he?

We can try Plan Bs during matches that aren't going according to plan A, but I think that's the way we should start if we want to be dynamic in attack.

As for Johnson, I suppose you don't know what you've got til it's gone. We look miles less dangerous without the option of him coming on and stretching teams.

[Ted Hughes]

He should realise that our performances, and results, have been best when the team was set up to play Tevez and Silva in a fluid attack. Playing 2/3 centre-forwards is making us too narrow (especially as we have no width with Johnson injured).

We should revert to this:

-----------------------------------Hart

Richards----------Kompany-----------Lescott------------Zab/Kolarov

--------------------De Jong--------------Barry

------------------------------------Toure

-----------------------Silva

--------------------------------Tevez

Richards and the other full-back can get forward at will knowing that Barry/De Jong will drop and cover. It's the only way we can get any width as none of our midfielders can play out wide.

Also, the neat movement between Tevez, Silva and Yaya up top was working a treat before Christmas. No room for them now.

Most importantly: Excepting Tevez, SILVA IS OUR BEST PLAYER. But he can only play off one up front. With two strikers, there's no room for him to keep going and get into space in front of them. This squares us up, making us rigid and predictable.

I agree with that short term to get us through but Tevez will be knackered & Yaya is already. Also in the longer term we surely can't rely on that & will perhaps need Bob to come up with something new if we're to succeed? Will he?

We can try Plan Bs during matches that aren't going according to plan A, but I think that's the way we should start if we want to be dynamic in attack.

As for Johnson, I suppose you don't know what you've got til it's gone. We look miles less dangerous without the option of him coming on and stretching teams.

I'm talking further down the line though. If we put out the side you're suggesting, with the ability to bring on Balo or Dzeko & everyone is sharp & fit, I think it's a strong side which may well get top 4. BUT the problems against the bus parkers will most likely return & that will also basically be saying we've bought two big players who are no use to us apart from as substitutes.

Bob knew that we need more attacking options if we're to be a genuine title chasing team & that's why he bought Dzeko & Balotelli. With the formation you're suggesting, Bellamy & Robinho would have been better options.

In the long term, do we not have to become the sort of team that CAN find a way of working with players like Dzeko & Balotelli? Will Bob deliver that or will we be in the same boat next season?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It does seem to me that Mancini is trying to accomodate 2 key signings in Mario and Dzeko. Our best play imo has been with Tevez up top on his own,Silva floating wherever he wants and Yaya given licence to support from midfield. Some control in the middle ,attack at pace when the opportunity is there but everbody having a clear role.

Now when Mario plays we actually have a passenger at times as he does little although at times promising a lot.When wide he is fairly ineffective and when central he takes Tevez's space.Similarly with Dzeko,who surely must play as a central striker but often is seen wandering and lost.

To me all the lessons have been there but as I say Mancini seems to be ignoring them and trying things. I was amazed last night that we tried to take the game to Kiev.It was ideal for a boring nil nil game for us but what we did was exactly what Kiev wanted and we played into their hands.Good in a way that we had a go but naive and poorly executed.

I also get the feeling that Tevez is unhappy with formations/style of play at the moment and his form reflects that.He tries to a point but it isnt happening for him and he seems to lose some heart as games go on which is not like him.I worry that if Tevez feels that he won't be alone.

[Ted Hughes]

It does seem to me that Mancini is trying to accomodate 2 key signings in Mario and Dzeko. Our best play imo has been with Tevez up top on his own,Silva floating wherever he wants and Yaya given licence to support from midfield. Some control in the middle ,attack at pace when the opportunity is there but everbody having a clear role.

Now when Mario plays we actually have a passenger at times as he does little although at times promising a lot.When wide he is fairly ineffective and when central he takes Tevez's space.Similarly with Dzeko,who surely must play as a central striker but often is seen wandering and lost.

To me all the lessons have been there but as I say Mancini seems to be ignoring them and trying things. I was amazed last night that we tried to take the game to Kiev.It was ideal for a boring nil nil game for us but what we did was exactly what Kiev wanted and we played into their hands.Good in a way that we had a go but naive and poorly executed.

I also get the feeling that Tevez is unhappy with formations/style of play at the moment and his form reflects that.He tries to a point but it isnt happening for him and he seems to lose some heart as games go on which is not like him.I worry that if Tevez feels that he won't be alone.

I agree with everything you say especially Tevez, I'll be surprised if he & Bob are at the same club next season, but where do we go from here? Back to the original team as the deep-veined frenchy suggests? Then what's the plan for next season? Write off Balo & Dzeko & start again or change to the kind of side who can work with them?

I wonder how Bob see's it developing ?

[blues2win]

Ted I didn't say relying on De Jong and Barry was an excuse now. I was just saying it was a poor inheritance in central midfield. As I recall he tried to get in Gago in the first window and there was a screw up with the work permit (not his fault surely). The result was that half season going for the CL he was hampered by a totally inadequate central midfield. In the first window where he had time he got in Silva Yaya and Milner which has added greatly to our midfield options.

Of course we can all argue about who his signings are and who are Marwood's. I presume no one comes in without Mancini's agreement. I would say that Balotelli and Kolarov are clearly down to Mancini and he has said he had wanted Silva for years so chalk that down to him. Both Marwood and Mancini clearly rated Dzeko so again down to Bob. I doubt he had any difficulties with Yaya either. Milner, AJ and Boateng look as though they were more Marwood signings. Still I'm speculating here obviously.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It does seem to me that Mancini is trying to accomodate 2 key signings in Mario and Dzeko. Our best play imo has been with Tevez up top on his own,Silva floating wherever he wants and Yaya given licence to support from midfield. Some control in the middle ,attack at pace when the opportunity is there but everbody having a clear role.

Now when Mario plays we actually have a passenger at times as he does little although at times promising a lot.When wide he is fairly ineffective and when central he takes Tevez's space.Similarly with Dzeko,who surely must play as a central striker but often is seen wandering and lost.

To me all the lessons have been there but as I say Mancini seems to be ignoring them and trying things. I was amazed last night that we tried to take the game to Kiev.It was ideal for a boring nil nil game for us but what we did was exactly what Kiev wanted and we played into their hands.Good in a way that we had a go but naive and poorly executed.

I also get the feeling that Tevez is unhappy with formations/style of play at the moment and his form reflects that.He tries to a point but it isnt happening for him and he seems to lose some heart as games go on which is not like him.I worry that if Tevez feels that he won't be alone.

I agree with everything you say especially Tevez, I'll be surprised if he & Bob are at the same club next season, but where do we go from here? Back to the original team as the deep-veined frenchy suggests? Then what's the plan for next season? Write off Balo & Dzeko & start again or change to the kind of side who can work with them?

I wonder how Bob see's it developing ?

Yes I feel he has to revert to he was doing and I have no idea about how he sees it developing or how it could/should develop. I still believe Dzeko is quality but he MUST be given the role that will bring that out. With the players we have my best feel would be 4.3.3 with Tevez and Silva part of the 3 up top and Mario maybe as an impact sub at best barring injury.Yaya also has to have a freeish role to attack so that would mean Nigel and one other sitting a little.

I fear that Mancini is a little more commited to Mario though and it could be part of his downfall.

[Ted Hughes]

Ted I didn't say relying on De Jong and Barry was an excuse now. I was just saying it was a poor inheritance in central midfield. As I recall he tried to get in Gago in the first window and there was a screw up with the work permit (not his fault surely). The result was that half season going for the CL he was hampered by a totally inadequate central midfield. In the first window where he had time he got in Silva Yaya and Milner which has added greatly to our midfield options.

Of course we can all argue about who his signings are and who are Marwood's. I presume no one comes in without Mancini's agreement. I would say that Balotelli and Kolarov are clearly down to Mancini and he has said he had wanted Silva for years so chalk that down to him. Both Marwood and Mancini clearly rated Dzeko so again down to Bob. I doubt he had any difficulties with Yaya either. Milner, AJ and Boateng look as though they were more Marwood signings. Still I'm speculating here obviously.

The idea that he thought of Gago being a replacement for either of them doesn't fill me with optimism though tbh. I actually thought Yaya would be perfect but it shows the difference between playing in Spain, for Barca & playing in the Prem. There, he looked like a great athlete with a terrific engine, for us he looks dead on his feet after a 20 yard sprint. That's another thing which Bob is probably learning now he's actually seeing the Premier League from close quarters, & his future signings may be faster & fitter, if he's still here of course & that's the point I'm talking about. I noticed after losing to Stoke last season, he's been signing mainly giants, unfortunately half of them don''t head the ball very much!

[dazby]

When we have a bad game I always think back to Mancio's 2nd or 3rd game against Hull where we w...


See the thing is, Man City has the energy of being a loser club. Dazby is a loser for liking them - he has similar energy. Your team will never win, no matter how rich they are, or who they buy.

Blah blah fucking blah is what I think about whatever Dazby is replying to. Its all tosh. No one gives a fuck about what anyone else thinks. Its all ego stroking, dick pulling bullshit. Its really not that interesting to kick a ball around and into a net. Honestly. Any fucker can do it....sure maybe not well but it is achievable.

YAWN

Im going to bed. Loser football club.

Love always
Neen (Dazby's other woman to this fucking site)

[Dubaimancityfan]

It does seem to me that Mancini is trying to accomodate 2 key signings in Mario and Dzeko. Our best play imo has been with Tevez up top on his own,Silva floating wherever he wants and Yaya given licence to support from midfield. Some control in the middle ,attack at pace when the opportunity is there but everbody having a clear role.

Now when Mario plays we actually have a passenger at times as he does little although at times promising a lot.When wide he is fairly ineffective and when central he takes Tevez's space.Similarly with Dzeko,who surely must play as a central striker but often is seen wandering and lost.

To me all the lessons have been there but as I say Mancini seems to be ignoring them and trying things.

I was amazed last night that we tried to take the game to Kiev.It was ideal for a boring nil nil game

for us but what we did was exactly what Kiev wanted and we played into their hands.Good in a way that we had a go but naive and poorly executed.

I also get the feeling that Tevez is unhappy with formations/style of play at the moment and his form reflects that.He tries to a point but it isnt happening for him and he seems to lose some heart as games go on which is not like him.I worry that if Tevez feels that he won't be alone.

Good point Doug. I thought (more like I was hoping) at 70 minutes with us down 1-0, Mancini will decide to close the game and be content with being 1 down only for the home leg. He should have brought on Nige or even Veiera at that stage for Yaya and told them to sit and keep the ball. Alas he did not do that.
If at that stage he was still hoping to clinch a draw, then he should have brought on SWP (again for Yaya) who needs more than 5 minutes to settle in and contribute positively.

blues2win mentioned that we lack a fast right winger in the absence of AJ. Actually yesterday (and in other matches lately) I saw a potential RW in Micah. On many ocassions he was our most forward player, was even caught offside once or twice. He likes to go forward, he is fast and can go past defenders. He also knows how to score as we've seen on many ocassions. And without the burden of full time defending, I think he will be a revelation.
So why not try the combination of Zabba/Micah on the right. They will be terrific together and they can interchange positions easily.
Once AJ is back, he can go to his natural position on the left. Still leaves us with the LB position problem. Right now Zabba is our best bet but maybe Boateng can be tried there (or even Lescott ??), with Kolarov in front of him until AJ is back. Of course we have to buy a decent LB in the summer. Gibbs from Arse would be a good shout.