When it matters, he can not deliver!

[john68]

Slim, I will give as complete an answer as I can Mate.
Over the last few weeks, I have been busy trying to build a series of City spreadsheets. I have spent a long time looking at the City "bigger picture" and it has confirmed my belief that the direction of the club can only be viewed definitively over the longer period. Maybe even over seasons and certainly not by looking at individual games or series of games over a short period. I emphasise seasons.

The 1st thing I would say is that successful teams usually take years to develop. Rarely do any clubs have immediate success and those few that do, are rarely able to sustain it.

When Sven came, notwithstanding takeovers and politics, he had a vision. Whatever his initial successes or eventual failures may have been, Sven was only at the start of his journey before it was stopped.
Hughes came in and he too had a vision. It was stated clearly by the club, by the wise in football and by the club itself that it would take years. As almost all new managers tend to do and because his vision was different to Sven's, Hughes destroyed much of what had been built and started his journey to refelect his ideas. Again, notwithstanding takeovers and club politics, Hughes wasn't allowed the time. It is important to note that during Hughes's tenure, the policy of the club changed, due to the proposed Fair Play Rules.
And now Mancini. He too had a different vision and he too destroyed much of what had aleready been put in place. He too started his journey to reflect his image and so, as with Sven and Hughes, we take yet another backward step until, yet again, another set of foundations are put in place....and whether we like it or not, each time a new face arrives, each time a different journey begins with a different manager, we shall keep taking those backward steps.

There are no guarantees in football except that all managers make mistakes.I have no idea whether Sven's or Hughes's visions were the right ones. Nor do I know whether they would have brought us success. What I am certain of is that given time, the benefits of stability and the resources to correct their mistakes, they would ultimately have develpped City to nearer our club's potential. But we shall never know.

That's the 1st part of my answer ragrding why we shouldn't change managers again.

[kennyboy]

Redknapp?

Guess equal avatar thinks the same.. Harry Redknapp gets my vote.

[Chopper]

This is all a bit knee jerk I'm afraid. Were in the top four and we are looking good for a pot. If we fall short of those goals then I will change my view. Until then.

Keep The Faith

[john68]

With specific regard to Mancini, he seems to be encumbered by 2 problems. The long term project which will see City evolve over the longer period and the contradictory issue of needing immediate success. The two don't always sit easily together and often work against each other. This problem would be replicated under any City manager that came in.
He has bought players with an eye for the future, Boateng, Kolarov, Balotelli and Dzeko, who may (no guarantees) pay off in the longer term...but we suffer in the shorter term. Money well spent for next season? Yet they are being judged now. He chose to go with Hart and suffer his inexperience and mistakes of the present in order to gain n the long term. Hart will fuck up less and less as he learns. Mancini's work with Micah seems to have paid off and there is no reason to believe he can't do similar with other players.

We are still near the beginning of the Mancini's journey and very much "work in progress". I am sure that he knows how much work still has to be done and that we are nowhere near being the finished article. New players will be bought, youngsters developed, mistakes rectified, the squad stregthened. There have been huge changes over the last year and pprobably many more changes over the next 12 months. City are a living breathing organic being, there will be good phases and bad ones, mistakes and corrections. What we have to do is allow mancini the time to move forward to fullfill as much of his vision as possible and to allow the team to realise as much of their potential as is probable.

...and no, it doesn't always look as though things are moving forward...when in reality they really are.

That should give you plenty to chew on Mate....Go for it.

[failsworthblue]

John, would you say it's possible for us to fuck up but still be entertaining? To go down(in a match), but go down swinging? To look at every fixture on the list and say that if we are on that day, we can beat anyone?

Mancini to me comes across just as clueless as Hughes but playing football as boring as Pearce. We have spent 3 years doing nothing but making excuses. Time to gel, laying the foundation, players are tired.

Sven came in, make a bunch of signings and hit the ground running, the players weren't of sufficient quality to maintain it, nor the squad of sufficient depth to endure a full season, but he showed it can be done. If only we had more money than god and could alleviate those problems. Oh wait...WE DO and neither manager has taken advantage of that fact.

We have one attacking midfielder when we should have 4, we have one winger when we should have 4. We have Bellamy, Onuoha and Adebayor on loan and have Vieira, Jo and Boateng on the bench. We have nice tall timber in the middle now and no-one who can cross, we have fullbacks(Micah aside) who seem incapable of stopping a cross or stopping a winger. We have not one single player who makes selfless runs with no expectation of getting the ball in order to help out a team mate, we have 90% of the team(Silva aside) looking for an easy pass instead of turning and running at a defender. No pace, no intent, no edge.

We only look good in the middle when we outnumber the opposition 3 to 2 and then wonder why we are getting taken apart on the wings. Even with Nigel when we play 4-4-2 he looks overrun and alone.

There are MANY MANY things wrong, I am a little busy at the moment so this was just off the top of my head, but I am not sure everything I have listed cannot be put to some degree on the doorstep of the last two managers.

Once again I agree
It is very simple , get Milner and De-Jong in the middle as soon as possible.
Barry to slow, Toure not suited to the Prem.
Johnson is a big loss , but SWP can do a decent job until the end of the season.

I will say it once again, Mancini is afraid to drop Yaya Toure , it is an admission of failure.

[Blue Since 76]

With specific regard to Mancini, he seems to be encumbered by 2 problems. The long term project which will see City evolve over the longer period and the contradictory issue of needing immediate success. The two don't always sit easily together and often work against each other. This problem would be replicated under any City manager that came in.
He has bought players with an eye for the future, Boateng, Kolarov, Balotelli and Dzeko, who may (no guarantees) pay off in the longer term...but we suffer in the shorter term. Money well spent for next season? Yet they are being judged now. He chose to go with Hart and suffer his inexperience and mistakes of the present in order to gain n the long term. Hart will fuck up less and less as he learns. Mancini's work with Micah seems to have paid off and there is no reason to believe he can't do similar with other players.

We are still near the beginning of the Mancini's journey and very much "work in progress". I am sure that he knows how much work still has to be done and that we are nowhere near being the finished article. New players will be bought, youngsters developed, mistakes rectified, the squad stregthened. There have been huge changes over the last year and pprobably many more changes over the next 12 months. City are a living breathing organic being, there will be good phases and bad ones, mistakes and corrections. What we have to do is allow mancini the time to move forward to fullfill as much of his vision as possible and to allow the team to realise as much of their potential as is probable.

...and no, it doesn't always look as though things are moving forward...when in reality they really are.

That should give you plenty to chew on Mate....Go for it.

John,

If someone could say to me, we'll be shit for the next 5 seasons, but then we'll look like Barca, I'd buy a 6 year season ticket tomorrow. Despite the club constantly talking about a 'project', that's the one thing it's not, as there's no fixed timescale or budget (probably) or set of KPIs it can be measured against.

Football isn't like that. It's all opinions, apart from the league table. The league table says we're doing ok, but my opinion is we've missed the best chance we'll probably ever have to win the league. We're too slow, too timid, seem to have no idea what a formation is. Of the players you mention above, I suspect at least 3 will be abject failures in England. Sounds bad, but I also suspect it's a similar ratio for most foreign imports.

I suppose the problem is, like many others, I just don't see progress and your signature provides the facts - exact same points as last season, having played a game more.

[Alioune DVToure]

I was a Hughes in and I'm now a Mancini in. In fact, I notice that for the most part it's my fellow 'lickers' who again don't want to see a change of manager.

There's quite a few in this thread who were Hughes out and are now Mancini out (as well as some Hughes out/Mancini ins). Can't think of any Hughes in/Mancini outs though.

Make of that what you will.

[Whassat]

I think old Svennis would love to get a chance at it again. He would be raving to prove everyone wrong I guess.

[King Kev]

kk Do you actually follow football anywhere else other than England?

Not really. I'm a City fan rather than a football fan. Can't be arsed with International football (pointless), Serie A (bent), La Liga (slow) Bundesliga (boring), and I don't play computer games, I suppose that means my opinions are worthless.

[carl_feedthegoat]

kk Do you actually follow football anywhere else other than England?

Not really. I'm a City fan rather than a football fan. Can't be arsed with International football (pointless), Serie A (bent), La Liga (slow) Bundesliga (boring), and I don't play computer games, I suppose that means my opinions are worthless.

Well in that case your "Why the hell would Jose come to us" is an opinion based on..... well fuck all then.




FYI he wants to come back to the UK - He is NOT happy in Spain - He will not manage any other London club IMO - we have millions at his disposal and he can write his name in our history books....we tick all the boxes.

Thats why he would come to us.

[Alioune DVToure]

kk Do you actually follow football anywhere else other than England?

Not really. I'm a City fan rather than a football fan. Can't be arsed with International football (pointless), Serie A (bent), La Liga (slow) Bundesliga (boring), and I don't play computer games, I suppose that means my opinions are worthless.

Well in that case your "Why the hell would Jose come to us" is an opinion based on..... well fuck all then.




FYI he wants to come back to the UK - He is NOT happy in Spain - He will not manage any other London club IMO - we have millions at his disposal and he can write his name in our history books....we tick all the boxes.

Thats why he would come to us.

Nah it's probably just paper tal... WAIT! Is that from The Sun? Fuck me I take that back. Must be true.

[the_georgian_genius]

kk Do you actually follow football anywhere else other than England?

Not really. I'm a City fan rather than a football fan. Can't be arsed with International football (pointless), Serie A (bent), La Liga (slow) Bundesliga (boring), and I don't play computer games, I suppose that means my opinions are worthless.

Well in that case your "Why the hell would Jose come to us" is an opinion based on..... well fuck all then.




FYI he wants to come back to the UK - He is NOT happy in Spain - He will not manage any other London club IMO - we have millions at his disposal and he can write his name in our history books....we tick all the boxes.

Thats why he would come to us.

Nah it's probably just paper tal... WAIT! Is that from The Sun? Fuck me I take that back. Must be true.

Maybe the Sheik will present him with a £150k watch like he does to all the players?

[carl_feedthegoat]

kk Do you actually follow football anywhere else other than England?

Not really. I'm a City fan rather than a football fan. Can't be arsed with International football (pointless), Serie A (bent), La Liga (slow) Bundesliga (boring), and I don't play computer games, I suppose that means my opinions are worthless.

Well in that case your "Why the hell would Jose come to us" is an opinion based on..... well fuck all then.




FYI he wants to come back to the UK - He is NOT happy in Spain - He will not manage any other London club IMO - we have millions at his disposal and he can write his name in our history books....we tick all the boxes.

Thats why he would come to us.

Nah it's probably just paper tal... WAIT! Is that from The Sun? Fuck me I take that back. Must be true.

Maybe the Sheik will present him with a £150k watch like he does to all the players?

Was there an earthquake today?

[Kladze]

I was a Hughes in and I'm now a Mancini in. In fact, I notice that for the most part it's my fellow 'lickers' who again don't want to see a change of manager.

There's quite a few in this thread who were Hughes out and are now Mancini out (as well as some Hughes out/Mancini ins). [highlight]Can't think of any Hughes in/Mancini outs though.[/highlight]

Make of that what you will.

I didn't want Hughes out - I do want this monotonous drivel of Mancini's to come to an immediate end though.

[john68]

@ Blue Since 76,
In 6 years time City will be stratospheric mate. Trust me Pal, I'm a cab driver and we know everything and I wouldn't lie to you...(would I?). So go and get yer 6 years season ticket.
We are most certainly a project...a fuclin huge one. Probably the biggest football project in the World and despite your protestations, you can offer no evidence to the contrary.

City is a project like no other and this phase is merely the 1st rung on a temporary ladder. let's put it like this...In the winter, you plant the bulbs in the garden. For a long time, the garden looks barren...and you think nothing is happening. Do you think fuck it and dig them all up again to chuck away, or do you wait until the time is right and the 1st shoots start to sprout?

Our reality is that we have barely just begun. What you see now is not what you saw last season...and it won't be what you will be watching next season. Teams take time...Don't dig the bulbs up before they have had chance to sprout.

[Slim]

@ Blue Since 76,
In 6 years time City will be stratospheric mate. Trust me Pal, I'm a cab driver and we know everything and I wouldn't lie to you...(would I?). So go and get yer 6 years season ticket.
We are most certainly a project...a fuclin huge one. Probably the biggest football project in the World and despite your protestations, you can offer no evidence to the contrary.

City is a project like no other and this phase is merely the 1st rung on a temporary ladder. let's put it like this...In the winter, you plant the bulbs in the garden. For a long time, the garden looks barren...and you think nothing is happening. Do you think fuck it and dig them all up again to chuck away, or do you wait until the time is right and the 1st shoots start to sprout?

Our reality is that we have barely just begun. What you see now is not what you saw last season...and it won't be what you will be watching next season. Teams take time...Don't dig the bulbs up before they have had chance to sprout.

If you planted bulbs three years ago and nothing was growing, you wouldn't dig them up to find out why?

Analogies in these situations are stupid, but unfortunately for those preaching the same line you did last year and the year before, it's all you have left. I get the feeling you'd be good standing in the trenches back in 1915 saying things like "hold the line" and "stay the course". Essentially making a shitload of noise while saying absolutely fucking nothing.

[john68]

If Mancini had started out 3 years ago, your point would stand and I would agree but he didn't he started just over 12 months ago. It takes much longer to build a team than 12 months.
Mancini may have taken on the legacy left by Hughes and to some extent by Sven but like just about every manager, changed everything around and started his own journey.

Some on here want rid of him but I can guarantee few have offered a reasonable alternative...A new manager, a new start and they will expect immediate results...IT AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN...We've tried it that way for years and we failed...based on what has been seen to have failed, they want to do it again...HOW DAFT IS THAT?

[Slim]

If Mancini had started out 3 years ago, your point would stand and I would agree but he didn't he started just over 12 months ago. It takes much longer to build a team than 12 months.
Mancini may have taken on the legacy left by Hughes and to some extent by Sven but like just about every manager, changed everything around and started his own journey.

Some on here want rid of him but I can guarantee few have offered a reasonable alternative...A new manager, a new start and they will expect immediate results...IT AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN...We've tried it that way for years and we failed...based on what has been seen to have failed, they want to do it again...HOW DAFT IS THAT?

How did Mourinho do in his first year at Chelsea?

Let's not imply it cannot be done.

[Blue Since 76]

If Mancini had started out 3 years ago, your point would stand and I would agree but he didn't he started just over 12 months ago. It takes much longer to build a team than 12 months.
Mancini may have taken on the legacy left by Hughes and to some extent by Sven but like just about every manager, changed everything around and started his own journey.

Some on here want rid of him but I can guarantee few have offered a reasonable alternative...A new manager, a new start and they will expect immediate results...IT AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN...We've tried it that way for years and we failed...based on what has been seen to have failed, they want to do it again...HOW DAFT IS THAT?

How did Mourinho do in his first year at Chelsea?

Let's not imply it cannot be done.

Or Ancelotti at Chelsea. Or Guardiola (sp?). Usually a new manager walks into a disaster area - that's why the previous one got sacked.

This would be different, as most of the team is there, except maybe the midfield pace. A couple of players, some organisation and a bit of belief and we could be excellent. I don't see Mancini sorting any of that.

The next problem will be that Tevez will go in summer and, if we don't make the top 4, Silva probably will as well. Who knows about Mario. So we're into rebuilding, again, and then we'll all be told that we can't win anything next season either, as the team's too new.

To return to the gardening analogy, if you planted bulbs, you'd be pretty sure when the shoots should appear. That can't be said for football, as the on the pitch stuff isn't a project.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

John68 the voice of reason.Some of your posts of late John have been excellent.They always are of course but they stand out a little more at the moment in the sea of growing fear and trepidation that is around us.I put thecalm and wisdom down to age and the good news for me and the majority is that we still have it to come:)