john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
[highlight]What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?[/highlight]
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
lets all have a disco wrote:John is Mancini your man for 5-10 years regardless?
john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
john68 wrote:Kladze,
[highlight]I don't know mate...but what timespan do you put on it?[/highlight]
1 hour...2 hours...maybe a week.
Remember mate...bored or not, we are having a very successful season considering how long this thing has been going on, when considered we are attemptingto compete against some of Europe's best teams. the rags, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs are no mugs and we are right in the mix with them.
john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
Im_Spartacus wrote:john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
So how do you explain away Real Madrid and AC Milan's considerable success amongst constant turmoil?
Ted Hughes wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
So how do you explain away Real Madrid and AC Milan's considerable success amongst constant turmoil?
They change their managers from a position of strength & it's more a case of adding to a side that's already there. The incoming manager has an easier job in that case, like Ancelotti at Chelsea. I'm sure Bob could manage that Chelsea team now but would he have built it in the first place?
City are a building job & that's much harder but not as hard as the job people like Moyes do year in year out.
Im_Spartacus wrote:Ted Hughes wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:john68 wrote:Slim, I have a great regard for your intelligence and usual analytical skills....but i am so sorry mate you and the others are so fucking wrong...it reeeally beggers belief.
What bit of "stability breeds success and constant change breeds failure don't any of you understand"...and dikdik...one appearance in a losing final after a change of manager is NOT sustained success...in fact we lost.
What bit of "money buys you players but teams win trophies and teams take time to build" can't you get your heads round?
The needle is stuck, simply because it is the truth and there is no other way of hammering home the message.
Busby took from the 40s to the late 50s to build his babes. After Munich, it took another 5 years to build his next dominant team.
Liverpool had it's stable boot room mentality that gave them sustained success even after Shankly disappeared. it was Souness playing billy big bollox, believing his way was better that fucked it up. Any success they have had since was not sustained.
Taggart failed miserably initially and took around seven years to build his empire.
Wenger may not have won anything for a few years, but they are the the nearest England has to challenging taggart's title charge.
Revie...Clough...Stein...all had time....and by the way didn't our own ron saunders go onto win the European Cup? How long did he last under Swales?
Our own success under Mercer/Allison took 3 years to build and they reigned for around 6 years. It was reverting back to our version of City's stable boot room mentality under book that brought success back.
I have never suggested that all those old City managers were any good. Some should never have been employed, simply because the old manager should never have been sacked in the 1st place.
The crucial bit is that when each one of them arrived with their own ideas, they demolished the previous work done and started their own projects, none were ever allowed the time to finish them.
...and Dikdik...changing a manager and getting ONE trip to a losing final is NOT sustained success.
So how do you explain away Real Madrid and AC Milan's considerable success amongst constant turmoil?
They change their managers from a position of strength & it's more a case of adding to a side that's already there. The incoming manager has an easier job in that case, like Ancelotti at Chelsea. I'm sure Bob could manage that Chelsea team now but would he have built it in the first place?
City are a building job & that's much harder but not as hard as the job people like Moyes do year in year out.
John can't have this argument both ways.
The point is, if the club is moving in the direction we all discussed last week where everything except the lineup & tactics on a Saturday is removed from the manager's responsibilities, then the manager is solely responsible for what we see on the pitch. As the head coaches are at Real Madrid.
AC Milan had to rebuild a number of times, the excuses about "time to gel" etc didnt stop them sacking managers and continuing to be successful. Yes they had a higher starting level, but the fact was - if the coach didnt show progress early doors, they were gone, and they kept doing that until they found a successful one in Ancelotti whom they kept for 8 seasons.
How many managers who have been sacked by Real or Milan over the last 24 seasons has gone on to be consistently successful elsewhere? I suspect the answer will be something along the lines of the number of our sacked managers who have gone on to better things. Capello arguably, but he never stuck around anywhere for long either.
The fact remains that if you appoint the wrong man in the first place, you are always going to have to sack him sooner or later. Ferguson and Wenger remain the 2 exceptions - and yes, people should understand that word, they are exceptions. They have not turned from shit managers into good ones because they were given time, they were great managers in the first place, and whether they had been given 10 months or 10 years at their club, they would have been successful regardless
Renato_CTID wrote:It's hard to say but too many Citizens here look like they ignore our beloved club hasn't the same traditions of Real, Barca, AC Milan, Liverpool and so on. Passing from Gillingham play offs to a Santiago Bernabeu or a San Siro trip you have to change a lot of things in your players, in your staff and even in all fans' way of work, could you imagine this is an easy thing to do?
Only God knows how much time we need to become exactly like those clubs! Months or years? All in all this is the reason why mr Strongest Ego of the World alias Josè Mourinho will never sign for us! He's a mercenary fox who'll take the job only where they guarantee tropheys to win
Ted Hughes wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:John can't have this argument both ways.
The point is, if the club is moving in the direction we all discussed last week where everything except the lineup & tactics on a Saturday is removed from the manager's responsibilities, then the manager is solely responsible for what we see on the pitch. As the head coaches are at Real Madrid.
AC Milan had to rebuild a number of times, the excuses about "time to gel" etc didnt stop them sacking managers and continuing to be successful. Yes they had a higher starting level, but the fact was - if the coach didnt show progress early doors, they were gone, and they kept doing that until they found a successful one in Ancelotti whom they kept for 8 seasons.
How many managers who have been sacked by Real or Milan over the last 24 seasons has gone on to be consistently successful elsewhere? I suspect the answer will be something along the lines of the number of our sacked managers who have gone on to better things. Capello arguably, but he never stuck around anywhere for long either.
The fact remains that if you appoint the wrong man in the first place, you are always going to have to sack him sooner or later. Ferguson and Wenger remain the 2 exceptions - and yes, people should understand that word, they are exceptions. They have not turned from shit managers into good ones because they were given time, they were great managers in the first place, and whether they had been given 10 months or 10 years at their club, they would have been successful regardless
Some managers had to be fired to get the right man in, that's true but at some point, the sacking has to stop. We are close to that point, if we're not there already.
The biggest problem with changing managers over quickly in the past has, imo, been down to the staff & players they leave behind. In the old days when City sacked managers regularly, you could have a bloke taking over players signed by 4 different managers, with various members of staff who were loyal to different people, all that lot disgruntled, banding together against the new manager telling their mates in the press stories etc.
Look at the shit Hughes had to deal with from Sven's boys & then Bob had to deal with when he dropped Ireland, fucked around with Bellamy etc etc. The next manager would have Balotelli to deal with, then if he drops Yaya Toure & say, Micah after Bob's got him playing again, they're off dropping stories to Oliver Holt etc. It causes shit, but at least now, the shit would be limited to the 1st team, rather than Hughes getting shit off the youth coaches & every Tom Dick & Harry for stuff that Khaldoon & Marwood were doing. It makes for trouble though.
In Bob's case, I don't think he's bonded much with the players so it should be minimal & most fans & media in the country hate watching us so it would be a bit easier than some sackings.
dazby wrote:If we got rid of Mancio right now, Hiddink would be the man to save our season. The squad we have would fit perfectly in his system. De Jong, yaya and gazbaz fighting for two positions. Silva, Tevez and yaya for the advanced midfield role. Silva and Johnno for the left, sweep and johnno for the right and one striker in the middle. Tasty.
Im_Spartacus wrote:
So how do you explain away Real Madrid and AC Milan's considerable success amongst constant turmoil?
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