FSF Safe Standing Petition

[Beefymcfc]

Kippax.

Need a picture?

[john@staustell]

Safe standing petitions sort of remind me of the historian AJP Taylor's quote about Napoleon III:

"He learned by the mistakes of his grandfather.........................how to make new ones."

[john68]

Kippax.

Need a picture?

If you got it...send it up young beefers.

[Rag_hater]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punisment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punisment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

[Rag_hater]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punishment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

I would think we spent millions getting seats to comply with what had become law.So the club increasing the prices I think is understandable.Furthermore the use of all seater stadiums has resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence within football grounds have become almost non-existent.That to me makes a huge difference.

[Beefymcfc]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punishment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

I would think we spent millions getting seats to comply with what had become law.So the club increasing the prices I think is understandable.Furthermore the use of all seater stadiums has resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence within football grounds have become almost non-existent.That to me makes a huge difference.

Everyone understands the safety benefits to seating, but are the 2 mutually exclusive? If Safe Standing has proved to be, well safe, then what is wrong with bringing it in for those who actually prefer the old ways? All through my life I have never seen people sitting in stands on a Saturday or Sunday morning down the park, so why would I want to stand just because it's a league match; it just seems unnatural. Maybe the theatre, maybe the pictures, maybe even the cricket, but not football.

[Rag_hater]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punishment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

I would think we spent millions getting seats to comply with what had become law.So the club increasing the prices I think is understandable.Furthermore the use of all seater stadiums has resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence within football grounds have become almost non-existent.That to me makes a huge difference.

Everyone understands the safety benefits to seating, but are the 2 mutually exclusive? If Safe Standing has proved to be, well safe, then what is wrong with bringing it in for those who actually prefer the old ways? All through my life I have never seen people sitting in stands on a Saturday or Sunday morning down the park, so why would I want to stand just because it's a league match; it just seems unnatural. Maybe the theatre, maybe the pictures, maybe even the cricket, but not football.

I think that yes the 2 things you say are mutually exclusive. There would definately be some trajedy or crimminal event due to standing and the first time that a significant accident or crowd trouble took place on a terrace would have major repercussions.
All-seater stadia are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans and have been a contributing factor to the increased diversity of those attending matches in recent years.Plastics like me

[Beefymcfc]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punishment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

I would think we spent millions getting seats to comply with what had become law.So the club increasing the prices I think is understandable.Furthermore the use of all seater stadiums has resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence within football grounds have become almost non-existent.That to me makes a huge difference.

Everyone understands the safety benefits to seating, but are the 2 mutually exclusive? If Safe Standing has proved to be, well safe, then what is wrong with bringing it in for those who actually prefer the old ways? All through my life I have never seen people sitting in stands on a Saturday or Sunday morning down the park, so why would I want to stand just because it's a league match; it just seems unnatural. Maybe the theatre, maybe the pictures, maybe even the cricket, but not football.

I think that yes the 2 things you say are mutually exclusive. There would definately be some trajedy or crimminal event due to standing and the first time that a significant accident or crowd trouble took place on a terrace would have major repercussions.
All-seater stadia are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans and have been a contributing factor to the increased diversity of those attending matches in recent years.Plastics like me

Have you seen the new type standing set-up? I think it would be quite difficult to achieve what you say, even for the ardent of hooligans.

[Guy Debord]

Standing up for a couple of hour strikes me as punishment.But whatever floats your boat.I just hope the club don't go OTT and make it all standing cos I like sitting down for the majority of the game and they leave plenty of seats.I've always found the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy it.

I had to sit down for a game in the 3rd tier last season. Hated it.
John68's comments are close to the truth. We never had to go all seater. It was a scam.

I would think we spent millions getting seats to comply with what had become law.So the club increasing the prices I think is understandable.Furthermore the use of all seater stadiums has resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence within football grounds have become almost non-existent.That to me makes a huge difference.

Everyone understands the safety benefits to seating, but are the 2 mutually exclusive? If Safe Standing has proved to be, well safe, then what is wrong with bringing it in for those who actually prefer the old ways? All through my life I have never seen people sitting in stands on a Saturday or Sunday morning down the park, so why would I want to stand just because it's a league match; it just seems unnatural. Maybe the theatre, maybe the pictures, maybe even the cricket, but not football.

I think that yes the 2 things you say are mutually exclusive. There would definately be some trajedy or crimminal event due to standing and the first time that a significant accident or crowd trouble took place on a terrace would have major repercussions.
All-seater stadia are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans and have been a contributing factor to the increased diversity of those attending matches in recent years.Plastics like me

Hillsborough wasn't caused by standing it was caused by the incompetence of South Yorkshire police. The move to all seater was designed to change the demographic of football supporters. It succeeded, at the time the argument was that seating would be only slightly more expensive. Seating at Rugby matches and the associated prices were used to demonstrate this. The clubs decided to profiteer and drive seat prices through the roof.
All-seater stadia have destroyed the atmosphere of British football grounds by treating the supporters like naughty children. The Germans aren't so easily pushed around and the Bundesliga is a great place to watch a game.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Spot on Guy.
And the decline in hooliganism is more to do with changing attitudes rather than seating. The fanzine movement had as much to do with it as seating.

[BobbyJ1956]

We'll see standing sections again at English football grounds when we next see steam locomotives at Manchester Exchange Station.

[john68]

Sadly Bobby, methinks that you are correct Mate...Probably lost and gone forever.

Let's nail this myth once and for all, that football clubs merely complied with a law that was forced on them by the goverment. Absolute and utter fucking garbage.
On the back of major and highly publicised disasters (Heysal, Hillsborough and Bradford) coupled with the rise of social disorder at games, the government commisioned the Taylor report. At that time, the football authorities were coming under increasing pressure to act. Importantly for the clubs, these events were having an adverse effect on attendances, causing a loss of income to clubs.

In 1990, Lord Justice Taylor's report RECOMMENDED all seater stadia but it was only one of many hundreds of recommendations he made. Some were vigorously fought and other greedily accepted.

Around that same time, Sky TV actively encouraged the top clubs to break away from the Football League and set up their own PRIVATE COMPANY...The Premier League. They offered those top clubs £302M in television revenue, to keep for themselves.

The Premier League broke away and took the Sky millions. This was not to be shared by clubs outside the prem, it was all theirs and for the 1st time, they now recieved income from fans NOT attending the game but merely viewing. The clubs readily acepted the proposed all seater stadia. Many grounds and stands were outdated (as our Kippax) anyway and needed renewing anyway.

It was the main chance. In one fail swoop, they could increase ticket prices...(NO LOSS OF GROUND REVENUE), Decrease matchday costs..(LESS CROWDS), Reach a worldwide audience...(INCREASED MARKETTING), Be seen to be doing something to stop social disorder, pick up a massive increase in TV revenue, and blame it all on the government...as well as afford to rebuild/refurbish ancient and outdated terracing.

At the time, there was opposition to all seater stadia and numerous reports of how safe standing could be achieved. All were ignored. Football supporters were "done up like a kipper"...we were stuffed...and the likes of Alan Sugar (and others) made their millions at our expense.

[city72]

Took my father to newcastle away boxing day, walked up 300 steps to get to our seats to find out everyone stood up for 2 hours, it fucked my father as he is 65 he swears he will never go to watch live football again.

[ashton287]

Football isnt our game anymore, the fans are just numbers in financial reports.

Funny though, if the countries fans fucked football off for 1 weekend and told the clubs we're not taking your shit anymore. We could get whatever we want as fans. Cheaper tickets, standing sections or free tampons in every programme.

[Rag_hater]

Attitudes have changed?
Really?
I think if people were to ask Mario if attitudes had changed he might have something to say.
If people were to ask our SWP if he thinks attitudes have changed he might be able to give examples of where it hasn't.
The game between Scotland and Brazil last week had an incident of a young German throwing a banana at Neymar so the people thinking hooliganism was dead and buried it appears that the so called "English Disease" is alive and kicking in the fatherland.
The "English Disease" is only under control cos of seating.
The fact that the price has gone up is hardly relevant.

[john68]

@ Rag Hater,
How long is it since you regularly attended games? and you really belive that attitudes haven't changed?
How can you compare the violence that took place at almost every ground, almost every week to what happens now? There is absolutely no comparison.
Whilst I agree that seating may have contributed towards that change, it is by no means anywhere near the sole factor. Attitudes were changing well before all seater stadia and even before the Kippax closed, scenes of violence, except for a few comparatively isolated events were quite rare. I distinctly remember safely standing in the Kippax every week, with hardly a hint of trouble. A lot of atmosphere, shouting and chanting but rarely violence.
Even as the seating areas increased, there were outbreaks of trouble...Chelsea (under Royle), Coventry (the FA Cup), the infamous Spurs game...Seating played no part in any of those outbreaks. Nor did seating play any part in the rags, Stoke, Paris fans wanting trouble in more recent times.
The attitude of fans has changed massively over the years. with football violence as with racism. You do seem to look at life in a very simplistic way at times...single issue, easy answers...usually things are a little more complex than that.

[Rag_hater]

@ Rag Hater,
How long is it since you regularly attended games? and you really belive that attitudes haven't changed?
How can you compare the violence that took place at almost every ground, almost every week to what happens now? There is absolutely no comparison.
Whilst I agree that seating may have contributed towards that change, it is by no means anywhere near the sole factor. Attitudes were changing well before all seater stadia and even before the Kippax closed, scenes of violence, except for a few comparatively isolated events were quite rare. I distinctly remember safely standing in the Kippax every week, with hardly a hint of trouble. A lot of atmosphere, shouting and chanting but rarely violence.
Even as the seating areas increased, there were outbreaks of trouble...Chelsea (under Royle), Coventry (the FA Cup), the infamous Spurs game...Seating played no part in any of those outbreaks. Nor did seating play any part in the rags, Stoke, Paris fans wanting trouble in more recent times.
The attitude of fans has changed massively over the years. with football violence as with racism. You do seem to look at life in a very simplistic way at times...single issue, easy answers...usually things are a little more complex than that.

Have not ever been to our house on a regular basis because of reasons that are best not brought up in this discussion.
However last year BERLIN (AFP) - German police have stopped dozens of violent fans from travelling to Brussels in a crackdown on hooliganism ahead of Friday's Euro 2012 clash against Belgium.

According to a police spokesman in Aachen, 42 "violent fans" had been prevented from travelling by Friday evening with police confiscating numerous weapons, including baseball bats, during checks on the Belgium-Germany border.
As Germany is being used as the example of how to do things right there is an example of them still having problems and attitude still being the same.
There was an example of the old attitude existing still amongst our fans in something a Mr.Ashton said his friend said at the match.
The attitude maybe affecting fewer people but I think it is alive and well in a small minority.
I think standing areas would allow this attitude to flourish more and begin to give it an opportunity to thrive

[Beefymcfc]

Attitudes have changed?
Really?
I think if people were to ask Mario if attitudes had changed he might have something to say.
If people were to ask our SWP if he thinks attitudes have changed he might be able to give examples of where it hasn't.
The game between Scotland and Brazil last week had an incident of a young German throwing a banana at Neymar so the people thinking hooliganism was dead and buried it appears that the so called "English Disease" is alive and kicking in the fatherland.
The "English Disease" is only under control cos of seating.
The fact that the price has gone up is hardly relevant.

So, from one German throwing a banana, you somehow come to that reasoning? Here mate, the reality:

after police later revealed the fruit was thrown by a German tourist who had "no racist intent."

I do wonder sometimes!

[Dameerto]

I just watched a live Bundesliga match that was stopped by the referee with four minutes still to play because a St. Pauli fan had thrown a container (might have been a glass) that hit a linesman on the back of the head - so I can't really contradict him about Germany. Too much assumption that seating brought about a change in behaviour though, I've mentioned a couple of times before that there was a change in policy to make clubs responsible for the behaviour of fans in their stadium which lead to a more indepth stewarding of games coupled with advances in technology allowing better surveilance of crowds to catch people and hold them accountable. Seating probably helped make the stewarding a bit easier but it wasn't the only factor, and behaviour wouldn't regress if fans started standing again. Just look further down the pyramid at non-league games, most of the stadiums still have standing areas and I've not seen any trouble or different behaviour in those areas (and I followed conference football quite closely for a couple of seasons) - although attendances are only a fraction of premier league clubs to be fair.