His dad washes elephants...

[ronk]

Elephant washer is just as denigrating as what Ron Atkinson called Desailly - and you know damned well that if Atkinson had called Desailly an elephant washer, he would have been sacked just as quickly

There's a big difference between saying someone washes elephants, and calling someone an elephant washer, in my opinion. The same difference as between calling a black person a 'bastard' or a 'black bastard', when he's not actually a bastard. The first is a general offence/joke/whatever way it was intended, the second is a racist offence.

Fuck me, this is hard work. How is "His dad washes elephants" any fucking different to calling his dad an elephant washer. They might as well have said his dad is a n***** - thats not racist towards Adebayor either.....doesnt stop it being fucking racist though

Whether its directly racist, has racist connotations, the fact is it is clearly racist.

Spuds as a club didnt like it when teams started singing about "Spurs are on their way to Belsen". Would you defend that as not being anti-semitic - as the ones who sung it might just have been singing about taking a holiday there because they didnt directly refer to jews being gassed.

You are either being deliberately argumentative, naive in the extreme or stupid to claim that "his dad washes elephants" doesnt have a racist undertone.

That's the one. He basically has a pedantic understanding of racism that's completely devoid of the concept of common sense or an appreciation of what racism is, why it persists and what form it has taken in the 21th century. There's a difference between being racist and using racist terminology, they are mutually exclusive. The BNP are aware of this, hence why they have been very careful in their use of language. It allows them to be racist without being overtly racist or falling afoul of hate-speech laws. BiB is aware of the general issues but draws the wrong conclusions, probably because I don't think he is actually racist and doesn't really understand the motivation of racists. So when he says that calling someone a "black bastard" is racist, he misses the point that racists (who want to be taken seriously) just change their phraseology. That one little word can make the difference in an assault case between getting off because it's not clear who the aggressor is and a punitive sentence for racially motivated assault.

The point about the song is that the people singing it sing it because they know it will have the same effect as more notorious phrases but they won't get banned, the person the song is aimed at knows it's being sung by racists but they can't do anything about it. That's why they sing about washing elephants, when most of the them have no idea of the etymology of the epithet.

[me_innit]

Ahh, the classic approach. Instead of cutting the bullshit, admitting and confronting racism when it rears it's ugly head in any way, shape or form, let's rather deny, deny, deny. No wonder it's still thriving in 2011.

The problem as I see it is that people see racism where it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that there isn't a racist intent behind this song, but the possibility of that had never occurred to me before.

On that note, the 'monkey noises' made by Croatia fans towards SWP were widely reported in the media as racism. Funnily, though, the same noises directed at Gary Neville weren't press-worthy for some reason. Such a chant is used for intimidatory purposes - to players of all ethnicities - in the Balkans (I've chanted like that to the famous black player John Arne Riise when Bosnia played Norway, although I'd never dream of doing it in Britain to any player, black or white). The problem is, UEFA's insensitivity towards cultural differences doesn't allow them to comprehend this. Ironic, really.

It's the same for the Celtic Cross- you know it's a banned symbol in football stadiums for its white power connotations? Even Wales fans are banned from using it on banners or flags, even though to them it means something totally different.

At least you now admit there's racist intent behind the song. Let me give you a hint with your ''monkey'' example, monkeys are generally black unlike Gary Neville.

What i find odd is you claiming you hate racism and on the other hand defending to the hilt anything (the chant in this case) that even slightly resembles it.

In this day and age, you can't be BLATANTLY racist and get away with it in the developed world so people find SUBLE ways to do it, doesn't mean it's not there and if you're too pedantic or get too caught up in the semantics of it, you're only being naive at best.

[BlueinBosnia]

blue in bosnia. i'm terrified for you. i quite simply cannot believe a person cannot believe the song is racist. i am speechless. here's some other logic, though i can see it's a bit futile; elephants are only natives of india and africa are they not? so weather it started out as a term for indians may be true, but it's quite likely here that it got used for africans too. Also everbody else in the thread knows its racist. Please just say you were naieve and we can all move on.

If you find the person who created the song, and they admit that they chose those lyrics to reflect a racist term for Indians, then yes, I will admit that it's a racist song. Until then, I stand by my belief that it is only racist in the eyes of those who interpret it in such a way.

I've never heard of the phrase 'Elephant Washer' being used in an African context, the main reason being that elephants aren't widely used in domestic situations there, and you'd have to be pretty stupid to go out into the bush to wash a wild animal at random. It is actually a job of lower castes in some parts of India, hence its origins.

Elephants are also native to Sri Lanka and Indonesia, by the way. The term 'Indian elephant' is often incorrectly applied to the 'Asian elephant', of which it is a subspecies, by culturally insensitive people.

[BlueinBosnia]

Ahh, the classic approach. Instead of cutting the bullshit, admitting and confronting racism when it rears it's ugly head in any way, shape or form, let's rather deny, deny, deny. No wonder it's still thriving in 2011.

The problem as I see it is that people see racism where it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that there isn't a racist intent behind this song, but the possibility of that had never occurred to me before.

On that note, the 'monkey noises' made by Croatia fans towards SWP were widely reported in the media as racism. Funnily, though, the same noises directed at Gary Neville weren't press-worthy for some reason. Such a chant is used for intimidatory purposes - to players of all ethnicities - in the Balkans (I've chanted like that to the famous black player John Arne Riise when Bosnia played Norway, although I'd never dream of doing it in Britain to any player, black or white). The problem is, UEFA's insensitivity towards cultural differences doesn't allow them to comprehend this. Ironic, really.

It's the same for the Celtic Cross- you know it's a banned symbol in football stadiums for its white power connotations? Even Wales fans are banned from using it on banners or flags, even though to them it means something totally different.

At least you now admit there's racist intent behind the song. Let me give you a hint with your ''monkey'' example, monkeys are generally black unlike Gary Neville.

What i find odd is you claiming you hate racism and on the other hand defending to the hilt anything (the chant in this case) that even slightly resembles it.

1. I did not say there was racist intent behind the song. I said that 'I am not saying there isn't racist intent', meaning I cannot 100% guarantee it. Like you cannot 100% guarantee that the song was created with racist intent.

2. So if you make a 'monkey chant' to a black person it's racist, but to a white person it's fine? Isn't that racial discrimination in itself? The chant, used in ex-Yugoslav countries, has no racist connotation. However, culturally insensitive people automatically assume this is racism when it's directed at a black person, yet conveniently ignore it when the same chant is aimed at a white person.

3. I don't recall stating I hate racism in this thread. Interesting tactic though- claiming I did, then not-so-subtly accusing me of being a racist by turning a made-up point on its head. (For the record, I abhor racism, but am also aware of the fable 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'...)

[me_innit]

Ahh, the classic approach. Instead of cutting the bullshit, admitting and confronting racism when it rears it's ugly head in any way, shape or form, let's rather deny, deny, deny. No wonder it's still thriving in 2011.

The problem as I see it is that people see racism where it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that there isn't a racist intent behind this song, but the possibility of that had never occurred to me before.

On that note, the 'monkey noises' made by Croatia fans towards SWP were widely reported in the media as racism. Funnily, though, the same noises directed at Gary Neville weren't press-worthy for some reason. Such a chant is used for intimidatory purposes - to players of all ethnicities - in the Balkans (I've chanted like that to the famous black player John Arne Riise when Bosnia played Norway, although I'd never dream of doing it in Britain to any player, black or white). The problem is, UEFA's insensitivity towards cultural differences doesn't allow them to comprehend this. Ironic, really.

It's the same for the Celtic Cross- you know it's a banned symbol in football stadiums for its white power connotations? Even Wales fans are banned from using it on banners or flags, even though to them it means something totally different.

At least you now admit there's racist intent behind the song. Let me give you a hint with your ''monkey'' example, monkeys are generally black unlike Gary Neville.

What i find odd is you claiming you hate racism and on the other hand defending to the hilt anything (the chant in this case) that even slightly resembles it.

1. I did not say there was racist intent behind the song. I said that 'I am not saying there isn't racist intent', meaning I cannot 100% guarantee it. Like you cannot 100% guarantee that the song was created with racist intent.

2. So if you make a 'monkey chant' to a black person it's racist, but to a white person it's fine? Isn't that racial discrimination in itself? The chant, used in ex-Yugoslav countries, has no racist connotation. However, culturally insensitive people automatically assume this is racism when it's directed at a black person, yet conveniently ignore it when the same chant is aimed at a white person.

3. I don't recall stating I hate racism in this thread. Interesting tactic though- claiming I did, then not-so-subtly accusing me of being a racist by turning a made-up point on its head. (For the record, I abhor racism, but am also aware of the fable 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'...)

1.At least you know what subtlety is. Now apply it to the chant and you might see it for what it is.

2.For the record i'm not accusing you of anything but ignorance if you think there's no racist intent in that chant. I think you're making progress in understanding why monkey chants will be more offensive to a black person than a white person. Shock horror but something that might be offensive to one person might not necessarily (in the same way) be to another person.

3.So you're now saying you abhor racism, but you have an issue with me saying you hate racism because it wasn't in an earlier post? Obviously, being pedantic comes naturally to you.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It's one of those strange grey areas. Technically it's not racist because anyones dad could wash elephants & their mother be a whore (Rooney for example) but we all know that in reality it IS racist when directed at Ade & that the Spurs fans who sing it are a nasty, hypocritical bunch of shites.

But on the other hand, if 'elephants' was exchanged for, say, 'cars', could it also not be argued to be racist, because it implies a menial labour job? Also, if a similar song was directed at a British person in Africa, with 'squirrels' being used instead of 'elephants', I think they would take more offence at the second line than the first.

Who washes squirrels? Now you're being daft.

Unless you use the squirrels to wash the elephants, it's nature in harmony at it's finest.

Using squirrels to wash the elephants....now that made me laugh:)

[BlueinBosnia]

1.At least you know what subtlety is. Now apply it to the chant and you might see it for what it is.

2.For the record i'm not accusing you of anything but ignorance if you think there's no racist intent in that chant. I think you're making progress in understanding why monkey chants will be more offensive to a black person than a white person. Shock horror but something that might be offensive to one person might not necessarily (in the same way) be to another person.

3.So you're now saying you abhor racism, but you have an issue with me saying you hate racism because it wasn't in an earlier post? Obviously, being pedantic comes naturally to you.

1. I still don't see how it's racist. Another example, United's song about Park. I don't see the line 'You eat dogs in your home country' as racist, but to refer to South Koreans as 'dog eaters' would be.

2. My point is that these 'monkey chants' are not monkey chants at all, the media just impose British values on another country's culture and customs. Which I find to be more racist than the chanting in the first place, as there is no racist intent to it, but assuming all white Europeans have identical values to British people is massively culturally insensitive.

3. I have a problem with you putting words into my mouth, not saying I don't like racism. If that's pedantry, then so be it.

[carl_feedthegoat]

where was all this bollox when Arsenal fans threw bananas at Ade after his famous run last season at COMS? That for me was far more racist and direct and in fact was on film i'm pretty sure. You can see the bananas in fucking pictures.

It was a half-eaten burger. I know that you Yanks find it hard to distinguish between fruit and fast food, but still...

You funny fucker...best reply to this thread.

10 out of 10 twato.

[Surrey Sky Blue]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... t%20washer

Pretty racist to me. (Never knew Ade was in IT though)

[BlueinBosnia]

(Never knew Ade was in IT though)

Or Indian.

[bigblue]

(Never knew Ade was in IT though)

Or Indian.

Something doesn't have to be correct to be racist. I'd actually expect someone who makes racists comments to be stupid enough to mix up nationalities/ethnicities. Just because I call a black man a whop-chink-spic bastard, doesn't make me not racist. You can't hide behind ignorance to defend racism

[carl_feedthegoat]

The real fucking Racists against squirrels.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... ction.html

[Sister of fu]

If Ade feels that he is being racially abused by fans singing this song then that's exactly what it is, it's all about the victims perception on the incident and in this case that person was Ade.

I deal with race hate through my job on a daily basis. Some of it is as clear as the nose on my face such as graffti on black family's houses saying "whites only" to less subtle forms such as smashing windows on black family/polish/ iraqies homes etc...I don't say to these families no it was or wasn't racial motivated that decsion lies with them and how they feel and their perception. If they feel it's racial that's what we run with and act on. It's not for one person to say what is and what isn't,thats the victims choice.

On topic, IMO it's racial and has a dig at him being African, what else can it be described as?

[Slim]

I deal with race hate through my job on a daily basis.

Goalies aren't a race, stop playing the victim.

[hyper]

My point is that these 'monkey chants' are not monkey chants at all, the media just impose British values on another country's culture and customs.

Utter, utter bullshit. Can't believe I've read that on this forum. Seriously. They're fucking monkey chants, intended to be offensive, demeaning and deeply racist. Don't even try to defend the scum that take part in such things.

[Florida Blue]

I don't think people would accuse my late father of washing elephants somehow

Crazy to say its not racist, and as you say, hypocritical from spurs

How is it hypocritical? I think if anything it is a bit racist (which by the way religion is not a race, so prejudice) to assume all Spurs fans are of the same lineage, right? I mean are all City fans white? Anglican? From the UK?

And I know Wooders you are not the only one saying this, I just stopped to add it on your comment.

[Rag_hater]

I would ban all the fuckers for a year whose name and address the club can find.A lot of innocent people would get punished but it would send out the message that the behaviour exibited by a few will be met with zero tolerance.Its the only way to get through to these idiots.
The ones who felt strong enough about it could appeal.

[Paco Gento]

Elephant washer is just as denigrating as what Ron Atkinson called Desailly - and you know damned well that if Atkinson had called Desailly an elephant washer, he would have been sacked just as quickly

There's a big difference between saying someone washes elephants, and calling someone an elephant washer, in my opinion. The same difference as between calling a black person a 'bastard' or a 'black bastard', when he's not actually a bastard. The first is a general offence/joke/whatever way it was intended, the second is a racist offence.

No there isn't. You don't have to dissect the grammar of a sentence to figure out if it is racist. It is about the intention and saying something that is directed about the color of someone's skin. This is not a difficult concept. Saying that ade's father washes elephants is obviously directed toasted him being black. Would anyone ever say that dzeko's father washes elephants? No. Quit being daft, racism is not that hard to identify.

And pepsi_Dave, your idea of racism is so narrow and skewed that I don't know if your joking or not. Racism is based on stereotypes that are 99% not true. Just because what you are saying isn't true doesnt mean that it isnt racist. In fact, if you go around spewing lies that are based on another person' skin color, you're racist.

If I call a black man a lazy, cotton picking, watermelon eating, fried chicken loving son of a bitch - it is racist. It doesn't matter if the black man in question is actually lazy, is actually employed to pick cotton, eats watermelons, or likes fried chicken. I am using stereotypes in an attempt to belittle and demean a certain class of people. Once again this is not a difficult concept.

Well said.There's no two ways to look at it, it's a racialist chant period. It's like hitting somebody with the haft and saying at least I didn't stab him. On the top of all it's such a shit chant no sane person would sing it. Hopefully he will make their night miserable again next Wednesday.

[Original Dub]

Calling a French Person a "Frog Eater" is not racist. It is just a xenophobic insult.

France is a nation and not a race.

This is the reason that Scottish universities can discriminate against English students. All Scottish and non English EU students get their fees paid at Scottish Universities. It is only the English who pay. But it is not racial discrimination because the the EU does not recognise the individual nations as races. This doesn't stop it being racism but it just highlights the facts that what is clearly racism to one person is clearly not racism to another.

The UN has no official definition of "racism", only "racial discrimination"!

See, this is the thing for me - I consider xenphobia to be just as hurtful as racism but its not taken seriously at all.

Every time I have a dispute on this board I'm called everything from a bomber to a pikey and all in between. If I was black even the slightest hint of an association towards racism and that person would be banned immediately.

I think if you're going to attack someone purely for what they were born into then you are a fucking lowlife scumbag. However, the way the world seems to work is that it only applies to skin... there is bias within how discrimination is handled and it favours attack on skin colour... its nearly ironic.

[CityGer]

Calling a French Person a "Frog Eater" is not racist. It is just a xenophobic insult.

France is a nation and not a race.

This is the reason that Scottish universities can discriminate against English students. All Scottish and non English EU students get their fees paid at Scottish Universities. It is only the English who pay. But it is not racial discrimination because the the EU does not recognise the individual nations as races. This doesn't stop it being racism but it just highlights the facts that what is clearly racism to one person is clearly not racism to another.

The UN has no official definition of "racism", only "racial discrimination"!

See, this is the thing for me - I consider xenphobia to be just as hurtful as racism but its not taken seriously at all.

Every time I have a dispute on this board I'm called everything from a bomber to a pikey and all in between. If I was black even the slightest hint of an association towards racism and that person would be banned immediately.

I think if you're going to attack someone purely for what they were born into then you are a fucking lowlife scumbag. However, the way the world seems to work is that it only applies to skin... there is bias within how discrimination is handled and it favours attack on skin colour... its nearly ironic.

Absolute fucking clap trap. As usual you're being a drama queen.

Every time I have a dispute on this board I'm called everything from a bomber to a pikey

Utter nonsense, dry your eyes you soft, lying cunt.