Blue glasses off - are we better than the rags?

[Im_Spartacus]

We have a better pool of talented players who are learning
They have experience and a proper team ethic plus a never lose attitude

As much as I hate to admit it the difference between the two squads is their manager. He's worth an extra 15 points a season alone.

Not going to miss a chance at having a pop at Mancini any given chance. Hughes didn't work out and is gone, get over it. You hated Mancini coming in from the day one and have been having a go at him any given chance. Well he got us joint second and FA Cup win. You need to get over yourself on this one.

For the record, Mancini is MILES further than taggart was at this stage of his career with rags.

Fucking hell come on mate, you cannot compare the two in any realm. Mancini has inherited the richest club in the world, Fergie inherited a reasonably successful, yet disorganised mess. And Ferguson is worth 15 points a season over ANY manager, absolutely no doubt about it.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

We have a better pool of talented players who are learning
They have experience and a proper team ethic plus a never lose attitude

As much as I hate to admit it the difference between the two squads is their manager. He's worth an extra 15 points a season alone.

Not going to miss a chance at having a pop at Mancini any given chance. Hughes didn't work out and is gone, get over it. You hated Mancini coming in from the day one and have been having a go at him any given chance. Well he got us joint second and FA Cup win. You need to get over yourself on this one.

For the record, Mancini is MILES further than taggart was at this stage of his career with rags.

Fucking hell come on mate, you cannot compare the two in any realm. Mancini has inherited the richest club in the world, Fergie inherited a reasonably successful, yet disorganised mess. And Ferguson is worth 15 points a season over ANY manager, absolutely no doubt about it.

Hold on. Ferguson inherited probably THE most expensive squad in English at the time AND spent TONS of money.

Whiteside, Robson, McGrath were already there. Bruce, Anderson, McClair, Leighton, Hughes, Webb, Phelan, Ince and Pallister all came in following two seasons which at the time very much compared to our spending now. As a team, united were a complete mess after Atkinson but core of the squad was filled with technically talented players. Bit like us really. Hughes couldn't make those players work as a team or get consistent run of results. We needed a new manager who could stabilise it all and make it work. It took Ferguson over three years whereas Mancini did the same in year and a half.

Also "Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie." In fact, that'd be excellent wind up banner in COMS.

Edit. Oh, and Ferguson inherited probably richest club outside Italy (and Marseille) at the time.

[Alioune DVToure]

Look how many late goals United get. When was the last time we won a game in the last 5 minutes? I can't even remember.

So what?

My opinion on the whole matter is this:

GK: Depends who they get

DF: Them (just, we're getting close)

MF: Us (by a mile)

ATT: Equal

I reckon we have a more valuable squad at the minute. All of our best players are 22-27 whilst theirs - Rooney, Nani and Little Prick excepted - are 29+.

I see us finishing above them next year if they don't sort out their midfield.

Yet the statistics would disagree with you entirely. We had a better defensive record and scored many goals less (because our midfield doesnt really contribute to goals in the league), which suggests that the difference between the two sides this year was most likely down to Mancini's mentality and approach, allied with Fergie's belief that they can win any game.

Right, first of all I've never given much of a fuck for statistics. I prefer to go off what I see.

The fact that they conceded a couple more goals than us doesn't mean that their defence is worse. Conceding more goals is a natural by-product of playing more expansive football, which they do. Not having a player in midfield who can break up play as well as either De Jong or Barry is another contributing factor. So the fact that they conceded 4 more goals than us over the course of 38 games means absolutely fuck all in my book.

As for this...

the majority of the difference between the sides is United's ability to turn around the West Ham and Blackpool games away from home, both from 2.0 down - neither of which we could have done.

...the trick is not going two goals down against such shit sides in the first place, which we didn't.

Basically, your statistics say jack shit about the quality of player we have at our disposal, which is the point I was making.

As for winning games in the last minute, we only drew 8 matches last season (to United's 11), so there weren't really that many chances to sneak a late winner anyway.

[Im_Spartacus]

We have a better pool of talented players who are learning
They have experience and a proper team ethic plus a never lose attitude

As much as I hate to admit it the difference between the two squads is their manager. He's worth an extra 15 points a season alone.

Not going to miss a chance at having a pop at Mancini any given chance. Hughes didn't work out and is gone, get over it. You hated Mancini coming in from the day one and have been having a go at him any given chance. Well he got us joint second and FA Cup win. You need to get over yourself on this one.

For the record, Mancini is MILES further than taggart was at this stage of his career with rags.

Fucking hell come on mate, you cannot compare the two in any realm. Mancini has inherited the richest club in the world, Fergie inherited a reasonably successful, yet disorganised mess. And Ferguson is worth 15 points a season over ANY manager, absolutely no doubt about it.

Hold on. Ferguson inherited probably THE most expensive squad in English at the time AND spent TONS of money.

Whiteside, Robson, McGrath were already there. Bruce, Anderson, McClair, Leighton, Hughes, Webb, Phelan, Ince and Pallister all came in following two seasons which at the time very much compared to our spending now. As a team, united were a complete mess after Atkinson but core of the squad was filled with technically talented players. Bit like us really. Hughes couldn't make those players work as a team or get consistent run of results. We needed a new manager who could stabilise it all and make it work. It took Ferguson over three years whereas Mancini did the same in year and a half.

Also "Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie." In fact, that'd be excellent wind up banner in COMS.

Edit. Oh, and Ferguson inherited probably richest club outside Italy (and Marseille) at the time.

Mancini had the perfect stage to win a cup and get in CL in the 2nd season of our evolution and blew it. All is forgiven now of course, but you can't compare the club Fergie inherited to the club Mancini inherited, in the interests of fairness you HAVE to use our ground zero as being the day of the takeover, and United's starting point as the day Fergie took over.

If the first part of our renaissance was under Hughes, then it has taken 3 seasons to win a trophy - in Bacon's 3rd season, United won the FA Cup, in the 4th, won ECWC, in the 5th League Cup and Super Cup, and from the 6th onwards created the dynasty that we have seen in the last 20 years

Well if we could win a European pot next year, the 5th season with a league cup and super cup would probably be disappointing......but if we emulate only half of what United did from season 6 onwards, I would be a happy bunny.

I have used the counter argument with rags, in that we are broadly on course to do what Fergie did since our takeover, so it seems a little churlish to use the same argument with a blue, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Fergie had to rebuild that club from scratch, just as Hughes then Mancini have done between them, they were a mid table side, so were we. History will be the marker of progress for the future from now on, but to say Mancini is doing better than Bacon is not really telling the full story is it?

[Im_Spartacus]

Look how many late goals United get. When was the last time we won a game in the last 5 minutes? I can't even remember.

So what?

My opinion on the whole matter is this:

GK: Depends who they get

DF: Them (just, we're getting close)

MF: Us (by a mile)

ATT: Equal

I reckon we have a more valuable squad at the minute. All of our best players are 22-27 whilst theirs - Rooney, Nani and Little Prick excepted - are 29+.

I see us finishing above them next year if they don't sort out their midfield.

Yet the statistics would disagree with you entirely. We had a better defensive record and scored many goals less (because our midfield doesnt really contribute to goals in the league), which suggests that the difference between the two sides this year was most likely down to Mancini's mentality and approach, allied with Fergie's belief that they can win any game.

Right, first of all I've never given much of a fuck for statistics. I prefer to go off what I see.

The fact that they conceded a couple more goals than us doesn't mean that their defence is worse. Conceding more goals is a natural by-product of playing more expansive football, which they do. Not having a player in midfield who can break up play as well as either De Jong or Barry is another contributing factor. So the fact that they conceded 4 more goals than us over the course of 38 games means absolutely fuck all in my book.

As for this...

the majority of the difference between the sides is United's ability to turn around the West Ham and Blackpool games away from home, both from 2.0 down - neither of which we could have done.

...the trick is not going two goals down against such shit sides in the first place, which we didn't.

Basically, your statistics say jack shit about the quality of player we have at our disposal, which is the point I was making.

As for winning games in the last minute, we only drew 8 matches last season (to United's 11), so there weren't really that many chances to sneak a late winner anyway.

Are we not saying the same thing here?

which suggests that the difference between the two sides this year was most likely down to Mancini's mentality and approach, allied with Fergie's belief that they can win any game.

So I agree 100%, had we attacked more, we most likely would have both scored and conceded more goals. The difference is Mancini won't take that approach. However where I disagree with Mancini with the talent he has at his disposal, is that it doesn't really matter about conceding one when you have scored 3, that has always been United's approach and yet again has served them up the league title by being consistent with that approach. Controversial I know (considering my former stance), but I reckon Hughes would have given United a proper run for their money this season because the attacking players would have been used to attack, and he might possibly have figured out how to win away from home.

By the same token, maybe Mancini will learn next season as part of his learning curve in this league how to attack more whilst keeping it just as tight, in which case we will probably win the league.

Only time will tell if Mancini wakes up to the fact that the team who uses that approach invariably wins more than a team that plays cautious.

[Alioune DVToure]

Look how many late goals United get. When was the last time we won a game in the last 5 minutes? I can't even remember.

So what?

My opinion on the whole matter is this:

GK: Depends who they get

DF: Them (just, we're getting close)

MF: Us (by a mile)

ATT: Equal

I reckon we have a more valuable squad at the minute. All of our best players are 22-27 whilst theirs - Rooney, Nani and Little Prick excepted - are 29+.

I see us finishing above them next year if they don't sort out their midfield.

Yet the statistics would disagree with you entirely. We had a better defensive record and scored many goals less (because our midfield doesnt really contribute to goals in the league), which suggests that the difference between the two sides this year was most likely down to Mancini's mentality and approach, allied with Fergie's belief that they can win any game.

Right, first of all I've never given much of a fuck for statistics. I prefer to go off what I see.

The fact that they conceded a couple more goals than us doesn't mean that their defence is worse. Conceding more goals is a natural by-product of playing more expansive football, which they do. Not having a player in midfield who can break up play as well as either De Jong or Barry is another contributing factor. So the fact that they conceded 4 more goals than us over the course of 38 games means absolutely fuck all in my book.

As for this...

the majority of the difference between the sides is United's ability to turn around the West Ham and Blackpool games away from home, both from 2.0 down - neither of which we could have done.

...the trick is not going two goals down against such shit sides in the first place, which we didn't.

Basically, your statistics say jack shit about the quality of player we have at our disposal, which is the point I was making.

As for winning games in the last minute, we only drew 8 matches last season (to United's 11), so there weren't really that many chances to sneak a late winner anyway.

Are we not saying the same thing here?

which suggests that the difference between the two sides this year was most likely down to Mancini's mentality and approach, allied with Fergie's belief that they can win any game.

So I agree 100%, had we attacked more, we most likely would have both scored and conceded more goals. The difference is Mancini won't take that approach. However where I disagree with Mancini with the talent he has at his disposal, is that it doesn't really matter about conceding one when you have scored 3, that has always been United's approach and yet again has served them up the league title by being consistent with that approach. Controversial I know (considering my former stance), but I reckon Hughes would have given United a proper run for their money this season because the attacking players would have been used to attack, and he might possibly have figured out how to win away from home.

By the same token, maybe Mancini will learn next season as part of his learning curve in this league how to attack more whilst keeping it just as tight, in which case we will probably win the league.

Only time will tell if Mancini wakes up to the fact that the team who uses that approach invariably wins more than a team that plays cautious.

I think we'll be fine playing the way we do, just as long as we cut out the stupid results. Our home form is spot on. Away from home we need to score first and then revert to type - hitting teams on the counter attack as they chase the game. Worked a treat at West Ham, Fulham and West Brom. Can't explain the shit away performances at Villa, Wolves and Everton. That's 3-9 points dropped straight away.

A few more points away from home and we're nearly there. I think the way Mancini has finished the season, he should have earned the right to keep us progressing in line with his vision for the team.

[john@staustell]

We have better players than the RAGS, mostly. We are not yet quite as good a team as the RAGS.

But we soon will be.

[Ted Hughes]

We could have been more positive earlier on & that cost us, but we finished the season as a positive side which looks like it's ready to compete for the top (with a few new faces). I think we're way ahead of where Ferguson was one year & a bit into the job & see no reason why we can't stay ahead of his schedule, even if we don't win anything next season. If we continue to progress, the end result is inevitable.

The next task is definitely to find the kind of spirit the rags have when going behind in games. It's ok to say we should avoid being in that position in the 1st place but even Barca would sometimes find themselves a goal or 2 down in the Prem. It's a muggers alley.

We will be more vulnerable to snidey goals if we play more attacking football too; every so often we'll get caught out. How we respond, will probably be the deciding factor in whether we finish 1st or wherever.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

[Ted Hughes]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

Playing for a draw is dangerous but being cautious in those kind of games away from home, may be correct next season. I think we have to play it by ear, depending how the league is shaping up. We obviously have to win more games if we're going to win the title, but it could turn out that a point at some of the big away games is a good result depending on how the league pans out. We always need to be looking to score though, even if it's only on the break.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I don't mind if we go for a win and draw, but if we play for a draw its poor. I was very disappointed how we played at the emirates. We may have got a point but we were so cowardly in that game. Offered nothing going forward. And we have the team to go and beat Arsenal so its so annoying when we don't even try.

[Ted Hughes]

I don't mind if we go for a win and draw, but if we play for a draw its poor. I was very disappointed how we played at the emirates. We may have got a point but we were so cowardly in that game. Offered nothing going forward. And we have the team to go and beat Arsenal so its so annoying when we don't even try.

I was well pissed off when we did that the season before, as Arsenal were in disarray & injury hit. I think we chucked 4th place that day, but last season Arsenal were flying & I was happy we got out of there with a point. They were a much better side than us during that period & I just don't think we could have beaten them at that time. We handed the points to Chelsea by being negative & scared though. I don't think we'd be like that if we played the game tomorrow.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I don't mind if we go for a win and draw, but if we play for a draw its poor. I was very disappointed how we played at the emirates. We may have got a point but we were so cowardly in that game. Offered nothing going forward. And we have the team to go and beat Arsenal so its so annoying when we don't even try.

I was well pissed off when we did that the season before, as Arsenal were in disarray & injury hit. I think we chucked 4th place that day, but last season Arsenal were flying & I was happy we got out of there with a point. They were a much better side than us during that period & I just don't think we could have beaten them at that time. We handed the points to Chelsea by being negative & scared though. I don't think we'd be like that if we played the game tomorrow.

I disagree playing for a draw in any match regardless of the opposition It's anti football. Just because Arsenal were playing better didn't mean we couldn't have won and adopting that mentality makes victory less likely.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

We have a better pool of talented players who are learning
They have experience and a proper team ethic plus a never lose attitude

As much as I hate to admit it the difference between the two squads is their manager. He's worth an extra 15 points a season alone.

Not going to miss a chance at having a pop at Mancini any given chance. Hughes didn't work out and is gone, get over it. You hated Mancini coming in from the day one and have been having a go at him any given chance. Well he got us joint second and FA Cup win. You need to get over yourself on this one.

For the record, Mancini is MILES further than taggart was at this stage of his career with rags.

Fucking hell come on mate, you cannot compare the two in any realm. Mancini has inherited the richest club in the world, Fergie inherited a reasonably successful, yet disorganised mess. And Ferguson is worth 15 points a season over ANY manager, absolutely no doubt about it.

Hold on. Ferguson inherited probably THE most expensive squad in English at the time AND spent TONS of money.

Whiteside, Robson, McGrath were already there. Bruce, Anderson, McClair, Leighton, Hughes, Webb, Phelan, Ince and Pallister all came in following two seasons which at the time very much compared to our spending now. As a team, united were a complete mess after Atkinson but core of the squad was filled with technically talented players. Bit like us really. Hughes couldn't make those players work as a team or get consistent run of results. We needed a new manager who could stabilise it all and make it work. It took Ferguson over three years whereas Mancini did the same in year and a half.

Also "Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie." In fact, that'd be excellent wind up banner in COMS.

Edit. Oh, and Ferguson inherited probably richest club outside Italy (and Marseille) at the time.

Mancini had the perfect stage to win a cup and get in CL in the 2nd season of our evolution and blew it. All is forgiven now of course, but you can't compare the club Fergie inherited to the club Mancini inherited, in the interests of fairness you HAVE to use our ground zero as being the day of the takeover, and United's starting point as the day Fergie took over.

If the first part of our renaissance was under Hughes, then it has taken 3 seasons to win a trophy - in Bacon's 3rd season, United won the FA Cup, in the 4th, won ECWC, in the 5th League Cup and Super Cup, and from the 6th onwards created the dynasty that we have seen in the last 20 years

Well if we could win a European pot next year, the 5th season with a league cup and super cup would probably be disappointing......but if we emulate only half of what United did from season 6 onwards, I would be a happy bunny.

I have used the counter argument with rags, in that we are broadly on course to do what Fergie did since our takeover, so it seems a little churlish to use the same argument with a blue, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Fergie had to rebuild that club from scratch, just as Hughes then Mancini have done between them, they were a mid table side, so were we. History will be the marker of progress for the future from now on, but to say Mancini is doing better than Bacon is not really telling the full story is it?

You can't fault Mancini on what Hughes did. Like I'm not going to blame Taggart for what Atkinson did. From Mancini's §point of view he has been repairing the damage Hughes (and of course enjoyed from the good stuff he managed to do) and been building the future.

[Alioune DVToure]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

We came away from Arsenal and Spurs with a point in each game. If we'd gone for both games and lost, there would have been two three-point swings towards our closest rivals at important points in the season.

I suggest you go and have a look at the final table and re-assess just how 'ridiculous' this was (especially at Spurs on the first day with a few new players in the side).

[Ted Hughes]

Ron Atkinson's Utd side had never finished out of the top 4, won 2 FA Cups, had Bryan Robson, Gordon Strachan, Norman Whiteside, Frank Stapleton & Paul McGrath in it. When Adug took over, we had won fuck all since 1976 & had Ched Evans leading our attack.

There's no comparison between Ferguson's position at the start & Hughes' / Mancini's starting position. Fat Ron already had Utd in the position we are in now, before Ferguson arrived.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

We came away from Arsenal and Spurs with a point in each game. If we'd gone for both games and lost, there would have been two three-point swings towards our closest rivals at important points in the season.

I suggest you go and have a look at the final table and re-assess just how 'ridiculous' this was (especially at Spurs on the first day with a few new players in the side).

Because playing for a drasw is never acceptable. It's anti football, we all criticized Rangers for it in the Uefa cup and I guarantee the next time a team comes to Eastlands, sits back all game and gets a draw that we'll criticze them for it. I wasn't iupset that we drew and they turned out to be decent results but the manner we approached those games was cowardly, absolutely pathetic to stick ten men behind the ball against anyone.

What about United at home when we barely had an attack? Are you gonna defend that?

[Original Dub]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

We came away from Arsenal and Spurs with a point in each game. If we'd gone for both games and lost, there would have been two three-point swings towards our closest rivals at important points in the season.

I suggest you go and have a look at the final table and re-assess just how 'ridiculous' this was (especially at Spurs on the first day with a few new players in the side).

Because playing for a drasw is never acceptable. It's anti football, we all criticized Rangers for it in the Uefa cup and I guarantee the next time a team comes to Eastlands, sits back all game and gets a draw that we'll criticze them for it. I wasn't iupset that we drew and they turned out to be decent results but the manner we approached those games was cowardly, absolutely pathetic to stick ten men behind the ball against anyone.

What about United at home when we barely had an attack? Are you gonna defend that?

I completely agree with this. I can handle drawing and even losing once we tried to win the game but the other team were better than we were on the day. Playing for a draw makes me angry... if we go on to lose a game because we played for the draw, I find it THE most infuriating outcome there is as far as City is concerned.

I do think as a team we now have that winning mentality and I also believe to a certain degree Mancini (rightly or wrongly) held them back slightly in order to obtain such a mentality.

So I'm hoping this season sees a different approach. Absolutely NO excuse.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

We came away from Arsenal and Spurs with a point in each game. If we'd gone for both games and lost, there would have been two three-point swings towards our closest rivals at important points in the season.

I suggest you go and have a look at the final table and re-assess just how 'ridiculous' this was (especially at Spurs on the first day with a few new players in the side).

Because playing for a drasw is never acceptable. It's anti football, we all criticized Rangers for it in the Uefa cup and I guarantee the next time a team comes to Eastlands, sits back all game and gets a draw that we'll criticze them for it. I wasn't iupset that we drew and they turned out to be decent results but the manner we approached those games was cowardly, absolutely pathetic to stick ten men behind the ball against anyone.

What about United at home when we barely had an attack? Are you gonna defend that?

I completely agree with this. I can handle drawing and even losing once we tried to win the game but the other team were better than we were on the day. Playing for a draw makes me angry... if we go on to lose a game because we played for the draw, I find it THE most infuriating outcome there is as far as City is concerned.

I do think as a team we now have that winning mentality and I also believe to a certain degree Mancini (rightly or wrongly) held them back slightly in order to obtain such a mentality.

So I'm hoping this season sees a different approach. Absolutely NO excuse.

Glad we see eye to eye ;)

I was far more disapointed with drawing to United than when we lost to them because at OT we had a real go and we don't go home thinking what if. Whereas at home we stuck ten men behind the ball and were pathetic. Everyone knows United crumble when you take the game to them, look at the FA Cup, or when they played Liverpool or Wolves, when the other team attacks and gets at United they crack.
As I've said the next time a team comes to Eastlands, plays for a draw and gets it, everyone on here will criticize them for it. Yet that's exactly what we did in several games last season. However the last quarter of the season showe definite signs of improvement.

[Alioune DVToure]

I've said it all season, playing for a draw in any game given our players is ridiculous. We went to Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and played for draws. We need to be going there and taking the game to them.

We came away from Arsenal and Spurs with a point in each game. If we'd gone for both games and lost, there would have been two three-point swings towards our closest rivals at important points in the season.

I suggest you go and have a look at the final table and re-assess just how 'ridiculous' this was (especially at Spurs on the first day with a few new players in the side).

Because playing for a drasw is never acceptable. It's anti football, we all criticized Rangers for it in the Uefa cup and I guarantee the next time a team comes to Eastlands, sits back all game and gets a draw that we'll criticze them for it. I wasn't iupset that we drew and they turned out to be decent results but the manner we approached those games was cowardly, absolutely pathetic to stick ten men behind the ball against anyone.

What about United at home when we barely had an attack? [highlight]Are you gonna defend that[/highlight]?

No I'm not, but that was (a) a home game and, (b) a very winnable game.

I don't give a fuck about the most ethical and unethical forms of football so you can speak for yourself there. The fact remains that if we'd gone gung-ho at Arsenal and, even more so, at Spurs, we'd have more than likely lost games that we couldn't afford to lose. We came out of both games with points that were more beneficial to us than our opponents and we're reaping the rewards now.