MATCH OFFICIALS

[Beefymcfc]

Oliver is doing ok. On the plus side I notice Atwell has been demoted. Good! He's a shithouse. Remember the Wolves game when he gave them everything and sent Vinnie off?

Why's that; 1 week, 2 week?

Can anybody answer this, can't seem to find anything on the net?

[CityGer]

Demoted indefinitely.

Removed from the list of 'elite' referees.

[Mase]

Oliver is doing ok. On the plus side I notice Atwell has been demoted. Good! He's a shithouse. Remember the Wolves game when he gave them everything and sent Vinnie off?

Why's that; 1 week, 2 week?

Can anybody answer this, can't seem to find anything on the net?

Referee Stuart Attwell has been demoted from the select group of Premier League officials after a four-year spell dogged by controversy.
Attwell became the youngest referee to officiate in the top flight when, aged 25, he took charge of a match between Blackburn and Hull in 2008 after one season in the Football League.
However, a month later he awarded a 'ghost' goal in a Championship match between Watford and Reading.

In 2010, he awarded Liverpool a controversial goal against Sunderland at Anfield when the away team believed the ball to be dead.
Most recently, he came under fire in December for sending off former Bolton defender Gary Cahill for denying Tottenham's Scott Parker a goalscoring opportunity, despite the offence taking place near the halfway line.
The red card was rescinded. Attwell, 29, will return to the national list to continue his development in the Football League.
In a statement, Professional Game Match Officials Limited general manager Mike Riley backed Attwell to improve as a referee and return to the top level.
'Throughout his career in the Select Group Stuart has demonstrated great courage and mental strength in responding to the challenges that he has faced,' Riley said.
'He has shown many of the attributes of a top flight official but the Premier League is an exacting standard with huge demands. It is imperative that PGMOL deliver the best officiating possible to the English game at all levels.

'This is not the end for Stuart. There are several match officials who have returned to the National List and benefited from it.
'Stuart has a high level of maturity and responsibility and I'm convinced that he has a long-term future as a referee at the very highest level.
'PGMOL sincerely hopes to be welcoming Stuart back to the Select Group in the future.'
Attwell said: 'I have learned a great deal from my involvement in the Select Group over the last four years and I am now looking forward to building on that valuable experience.
'I strongly believe I have a lot to offer refereeing, and I now look forward with commitment and enthusiasm to the new challenge that I am undertaking.
'This is supported by a determination to continue my career development, and return to the Select Group as soon as possible.'

Attwell spent only one year on the national list prior to his promotion to the select group four years ago.
He made his Premier League debut as a referee in the 1-1 draw between Blackburn and Hull in August 2008.
Following the Watford-Reading game, further controversies followed when he was accused of 'losing control' of a Derby-Nottingham Forest derby, having disallowed two Derby goals in the final stages, booking eight players and sending off Forest's Lewis McGugan.
He has also attracted the ire of Wigan manager Roberto Martinez, who accused the referee of lying about his reasons for sending off Gary Caldwell in April 2010, while Stoke's Danny Higginbotham claimed Attwell could be too easily influenced by players.
Later that year, he awarded Liverpool a highly controversial goal against Sunderland. He had awarded the Black Cats a free-kick inside their own half and Michael Turner touched the ball back to Simon Mignolet, apparently for the goalkeeper to take the set-piece.
But Attwell ruled the ball active, allowing Fernando Torres to steal it and set up Dirk Kuyt to finish into an empty net.

[Beefymcfc]

Mmmmmm, I wonder if there's more behind this other than him being shit? Closet's and all that!

[paddyblue]

Looking round a refereeing forum I found the following comments regarding the appointments of refs to clubs quite interesting.

Prior to the setting up of PGMOL under Mike Riley and the birth of the Select Group, refs usually only got appointed to the same team twice a season.
Looking at the listed refs this season for some clubs, it seems this has gone by the board and some teams have had the same ref as many as 4 times, whilst other select group officials have not been appointed to them at all.

The list for City: 4...Atkinson. 3..Dean, Dowd, Clattenburg, and Webb. 2...Jones. 1...Taylor, Attwell, Foy, Mason, Friend, Walton and Oliver.
Neither of the 2 new additions to the Select Group; Swarbrick and Moss have officiated a City game and neither have, Halsey, Probert or Marriner.

I don't have a full list for all clubs but Friend has reffed Sunderland 4 times.
Villa have had Oliver 4 times and Clattenburg, Halsey and Swarbrick 3 times each. Mike Dean hasn't reffed a Villa game since 2010.
Webb has reffed Everton 3 times.
Fulham have had Dean and Friend 3 times each.
Liverpool have had Atkinson, Probert, Jones, Dowd and Friend 3 times each. That means that only 5 refs have officiated for well over half of their games.

It would be interesting if any of that threw up any results patterns.

There is bound to be some anomalies because of the referees bacon has banned from the Swamp, meaning some have to double up.

Can you have a look and seek if I was right about Oliver, has he done any rag games this season? And more importantly, any at Old Trafford?

he did scum 4 wolves 1
you can check out all of their records here
http://www.soccerbase.com/referees/home.sd

[john68]

@Maine Man,
Referees do have to disclose any team they support and also they aren't allowed to officiate for teams where they live etc. Again my info is sketchy but can tell you (as examples) that Oliver and Moss can't ref Sunderland nor can Dean or Foy ref Everton.

@Spartacus,
Sorry, meant to reply to that last night but you got a 5K post instead (yer greedy git). As above mate, my info is sketchy but have just notices the link to soccerbase and when I get some time, will peruse it to see if there's anything relevent on there.

@PaddyBlue,
Thanks for that link, as above, when I get a bit of time, I'll have a good look at that site mate. Cheers.

@Beefers,
Was reading some of the comments by his peers about his demotion yesterday and meant to post something yesterday about their comments.
There seem to be questions about the timing of the decision. The statement said "by mutual consent" and some have taken that literally, meaning could have had some input (requested?) his removal from the list. Others seem to point out that it is normal for officials to be removed/promoted at the end of,or between seasons and the feeling I get from this is that...If Attwell had not requested it (for personal reasons?), then this could be a more extreme measure (punishment?).
Something I did pick up on was that; of all the officials that have been demoted in therecent past, only Rennie returned to the list.

Hope that helps Lads.

[Beefymcfc]

Cheers Doug, something definately smells about the timing of this.

[john68]

Cheers Doug, something definately smells about the timing of this.

It was a pleasure Geefers.!!!!!!!!

[john68]

@PaddyBlue,
That soccerbase site is an excellent source of info Mate. I have started to build a database/spreadsheet from it covering the Prem games, containing refs, location and total red/yellow record. It also has a ref/club record containing; number of games, home/away, reds/yellow for and against and the results of games too, making it easy to spot any patterns on a ref/club/game by game basis.

It'll take some time to complete and need updating game by game but having done the top three (alphabetically), there seems to be a link between Atkinson and Liverpool that could do with looking at.

Atkinson has reffed Liverpool 3 times this season;
Arsenal 0-2 Liverpool...Both teams had 2 yellow cards each but Frimpong (Arsenal) was sent off in the 70th minute when the scores were 0-0. Immediately, Liverpool brought on Suarez and following an own goal by Ramsey (78) and a goal by Suarez (90), Liverpool won.

Everton 0-2 Liverpool ...Both teams had 1 yellow card each but Rodwell (Everton) was sent in the 23rd minute. Liverpool won with goals by Carrol (71) and Suarez (82).

Liverpool 1-1 Manchester City...Liverpool 1 yellow, City 4 yellows. Balotelli was sent of in the 83rd minute. A drawn game with Lescott (og) 31 mins and a Kompany equaliser 33rd minute.

Notes: 3 games, all important, 2 against near rivals and a local derby. 3 red cards for Liverpool's opponents. Apart from the contraversial Balotelli red card which I remember, I don't know if either the Frimpong or the Rodwell red cards were contentious. 2 wins and a draw for Liverpool....7pts.

Any comments/info welcomed.

[Dubciteh]

@PaddyBlue,
That soccerbase site is an excellent source of info Mate. I have started to build a database/spreadsheet from it covering the Prem games, containing refs, location and total red/yellow record. It also has a ref/club record containing; number of games, home/away, reds/yellow for and against and the results of games too, making it easy to spot any patterns on a ref/club/game by game basis.

It'll take some time to complete and need updating game by game but having done the top three (alphabetically), there seems to be a link between Atkinson and Liverpool that could do with looking at.

Atkinson has reffed Liverpool 3 times this season;
Arsenal 0-2 Liverpool...Both teams had 2 yellow cards each but Frimpong (Arsenal) was sent off in the 70th minute when the scores were 0-0. Immediately, Liverpool brought on Suarez and following an own goal by Ramsey (78) and a goal by Suarez (90), Liverpool won.

Everton 0-2 Liverpool ...Both teams had 1 yellow card each but Rodwell (Everton) was sent in the 23rd minute. Liverpool won with goals by Carrol (71) and Suarez (82).

Liverpool 1-1 Manchester City...Liverpool 1 yellow, City 4 yellows. Balotelli was sent of in the 83rd minute. A drawn game with Lescott (og) 31 mins and a Kompany equaliser 33rd minute.

Notes: 3 games, all important, 2 against near rivals and a local derby. 3 red cards for Liverpool's opponents. Apart from the contraversial Balotelli red card which I remember, I don't know if either the Frimpong or the Rodwell red cards were contentious. 2 wins and a draw for Liverpool....7pts.

Any comments/info welcomed.

Rodwells was akin to Kompany in the derby ie a joke of a decision.

[Yffi_88]

@PaddyBlue,
That soccerbase site is an excellent source of info Mate. I have started to build a database/spreadsheet from it covering the Prem games, containing refs, location and total red/yellow record. It also has a ref/club record containing; number of games, home/away, reds/yellow for and against and the results of games too, making it easy to spot any patterns on a ref/club/game by game basis.

It'll take some time to complete and need updating game by game but having done the top three (alphabetically), there seems to be a link between Atkinson and Liverpool that could do with looking at.

Atkinson has reffed Liverpool 3 times this season;
Arsenal 0-2 Liverpool...Both teams had 2 yellow cards each but Frimpong (Arsenal) was sent off in the 70th minute when the scores were 0-0. Immediately, Liverpool brought on Suarez and following an own goal by Ramsey (78) and a goal by Suarez (90), Liverpool won.

Everton 0-2 Liverpool ...Both teams had 1 yellow card each but Rodwell (Everton) was sent in the 23rd minute. Liverpool won with goals by Carrol (71) and Suarez (82).

Liverpool 1-1 Manchester City...Liverpool 1 yellow, City 4 yellows. Balotelli was sent of in the 83rd minute. A drawn game with Lescott (og) 31 mins and a Kompany equaliser 33rd minute.

Notes: 3 games, all important, 2 against near rivals and a local derby. 3 red cards for Liverpool's opponents. Apart from the contraversial Balotelli red card which I remember, I don't know if either the Frimpong or the Rodwell red cards were contentious. 2 wins and a draw for Liverpool....7pts.

Any comments/info welcomed.

First of all... i admire your work ethic! We've been saying something like this should be looked at and i'm glad someone is taking the time to do it. I'd have had a breakdown pretty early on into it, i reckon.

It will sure take along time to get that completed however the three games mentioned are very interesting and i'm looking forward to any other patterns/curiosities that pop up!

Definitely excited to see how it looks when completed and whether we can really base some of the conceived bias against us on the findings.

Keep it up John! Good work amigo.

[mr_nool]

Wasn't the Frimpong red card a stonewall one, though?

[BlueinBosnia]

Referees should have to declare their supported club (as football fans they all have one) and as such not be included from any match involving them.

Game allocation may simply be to accommodate refs personal wishes (family events) and travel/home location but I suspect it is more sinister than that.

They do declare a club, or several if there are 'divided loyalties' with kids, etc.

Also, I think they're not allowed to referee teams within a certain distance of where they live/were born, but this is just something I've heard.

Another thing I've heard (from a very, very reliable source) is that a disproportionate amount of English & Welsh football officials appear to support Scottish clubs than amongst the general population. I don't know whether records on declared teams are publicly available or not, but I'd love to see them.

[Big H]

Wasn't the Frimpong red card a stonewall one, though?

Can't recall. But the Rodwell incident was an exaggerated dive/jump in the air from Suarez. Rodwell didn't touch him

[john68]

Thanks Iffy...:-) Appreciated mate. Am trying to be open minded on this and try and measure what is truth against our (biased?) preconceptions. I also think we have obviously made much of recent decisions as they have affected City, without regard to how this issue may also affect other clubs.

Noolie,
Thanks for your info on the Frimpong incident. I don't remember it and the more info, the better our chances of finding the truth.

At the moment, I have only recorded Atkinson, Attwell and Clattenburg and only for this season so there is plenty still to do. I would like, at some point to add previous seasons to the record and see if it leads us anywhere.

[mr_nool]

Thanks Iffy...:-) Appreciated mate. Am trying to be open minded on this and try and measure what is truth against our (biased?) preconceptions. I also think we have obviously made much of recent decisions as they have affected City, without regard to how this issue may also affect other clubs.

Noolie,
Thanks for your info on the Frimpong incident. I don't remember it and the more info, the better our chances of finding the truth.

At the moment, I have only recorded Atkinson, Attwell and Clattenburg and only for this season so there is plenty still to do. I would like, at some point to add previous seasons to the record and see if it leads us anywhere.

Here's the incident. Not quite as bad as i remembered it, but definitely worthy of a red card.

[youtube]FjXri2atVwM[/youtube]

[john68]

OUCH!!! That must have hurt. Cheers Noolie, Appreciated.