Mancini has to go?

[Kiss_The_Goat]

Found this posting on the internets from a CIty fan and thought it offers much needed perspective:

Mancini, on his first ever English title challenge against one of the best managers in the history of football, will probably finish second to a team who will secure the record amount of points ever in a PL season. And he went into this managers backyard and humiliated him, making him comment that it was his worst day in the 55 year career he has experienced.

It's knee jerk nownownow syndrome, it's prevelant all over football but especially in us City fans because we're desperate to win the big one and proved that we've arrived.

Look at the difference in the team between when Mancini started and now. Every player has improved, especially our back five who have all moved towards world class territory. Richards especially looks a new player, Barry is putting in some of his best performances in his career. Kompany has become Kompany. Hart became our number one and the nations number one. We won our first trophy, beating our rivals to do so.

Mancini has done an incredible job at City and given time he will win us the league. It's hard to take that we're effectively out of the title race and tne manner which our away form dipped in the last few weeks. Kompany and Lescott been out whilst Dzeko and Aguero missing a beat twatted us. However, this is no time to lose perspective.

Khaldoon said that this is a ten year plan to make City one of the biggest clubs in the world. Look at the immense progress made already and it's only year 4. Imagine where we will be in year 8 or 9.

Mancini has done a great job and I wouldn't swap the clubs state for anybody in the world right now. Cusp of greatness my friend, this is our 1991, you need these seasons to focus you next time. You gotta lose before you can win as the old saying goes

Exactly... "You gotta lose before you can win" - says it all

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

The circumstances and quality/experience of the Chelsea teams Mourinho and Ancelotti had when they took charge are miles away and totally different to the City team Mancini had/has when he took over at City... how can you not see that?

And both Mourhino and Ancelotti's Chelsea team's had lost before they won...

[Grob]

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

Mancini won the FA Cup in his first season here, whats your point? You think Anchelotti or Mourinho would have guaranteed us the league this year? If so, let me remind you the the grass always seems greener on the other side...

And I'd say the summary above is more of a glass 4/5 full. You can harp on and on about the missing 1/5, but you're losing sight of the bigger picture

Winning the FA Cup is different to winning the Premier League. The 2 achievements are not comparable to me. The only commonalitys are that you get a trophy for winning both and you have to win football matches to win those trophies. If you think they are comparable then fair enough.

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

Whose to say the bigger picture is that Mancini cant get us over this hurdle? All signs since november have certainly pointed that way. What do you think?

[bigblue]

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

No guarantees in football, especially in the PL. And look at Porto, Inter, or Chelsea now. Is that where you want City to be in 3 years after Mourinho leaves?

[Blue Since 76]

.

The same could be said of Mancini at Inter, he could still be there now guiding them to another title.

and continuing to fail in Europe which cost him his job.

For all those saying that he will learn from his PL mistakes this season and be great next, has anyone seen any evidence that he understands European football yet?

[Grob]

Found this posting on the internets from a CIty fan and thought it offers much needed perspective:

Mancini, on his first ever English title challenge against one of the best managers in the history of football, will probably finish second to a team who will secure the record amount of points ever in a PL season. And he went into this managers backyard and humiliated him, making him comment that it was his worst day in the 55 year career he has experienced.

It's knee jerk nownownow syndrome, it's prevelant all over football but especially in us City fans because we're desperate to win the big one and proved that we've arrived.

Look at the difference in the team between when Mancini started and now. Every player has improved, especially our back five who have all moved towards world class territory. Richards especially looks a new player, Barry is putting in some of his best performances in his career. Kompany has become Kompany. Hart became our number one and the nations number one. We won our first trophy, beating our rivals to do so.

Mancini has done an incredible job at City and given time he will win us the league. It's hard to take that we're effectively out of the title race and tne manner which our away form dipped in the last few weeks. Kompany and Lescott been out whilst Dzeko and Aguero missing a beat twatted us. However, this is no time to lose perspective.

Khaldoon said that this is a ten year plan to make City one of the biggest clubs in the world. Look at the immense progress made already and it's only year 4. Imagine where we will be in year 8 or 9.

Mancini has done a great job and I wouldn't swap the clubs state for anybody in the world right now. Cusp of greatness my friend, this is our 1991, you need these seasons to focus you next time. You gotta lose before you can win as the old saying goes

Exactly... "You gotta lose before you can win" - says it all

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

The circumstances and quality/experience of the Chelsea teams Mourinho and Ancelotti had when they took charge are miles away and totally different to the City team Mancini had/has when he took over at City... how can you not see that?

And both Mourhino and Ancelotti's Chelsea team's had lost before they won...

We have the strongest squad in the league on paper in my opinion.

Only Aguero and Nasri were newcomers over the summer and Nasri has bags of premier league experiance. So the squad has been together for 2 seasons nearly.

A fair few of our squad have won league comptetitions previously as has our manager. And yes, I know, they havent done it together. I get that point.

But they will have to at some point if we are going to be champions. Why not this season?

As I said, for the majority of the squad its their second season, the first was a bedding in one last year, why not win the title this year?

[bigblue]

One opinion that I've very surprised not to read on here (especially because of the hatred of him) is more of a middle road where we keep the consistency at the club, but get someone who may be able to motivate the players better:

Platt or Kidd out, better 1st team coach in?

Not saying I agree with it at all, but slightly adjusting course make much more sense than pressing the reset button on everything.

[Ted Hughes]

.

The same could be said of Mancini at Inter, he could still be there now guiding them to another title.

and continuing to fail in Europe which cost him his job.

For all those saying that he will learn from his PL mistakes this season and be great next, has anyone seen any evidence that he understands European football yet?

No.

But I'd judge that next season, not during a season where, as a brand new team, we're stuck in a group with Bayern & Napoli & Bayern are helped by the ref. We beat last season's finalists 6-1 on their own ground.

[Blue Since 76]

My own sense on Sunday was more that the players were just not up for it, yes they looked like they needed an outlet up the field but to be honest they were not getting stuck in enough to make a case for it, looking at them I don't believe it would have made one jot of difference.
I rekon the players got caught in the headlights and couldn't respond, dumping all the blame on Mancini is crucially missing the point imo.

Undoubtedly the team were rubbish on Sunday. However, in the main, they were bought by Mancini, trained by Mancini, prepared by Mancini and able to be adjusted or changed on the pitch by Mancini. So yes, the players take some responsibility for the performance, but I don't think the buck stops there, as they say.

[Risby]

Last season we finished 3rd and were proud of our achievements in the short space of time.
This season it looks like we will finish second, and as much as it pains me to finish second and second behind our shitty neighbours makes the whole thing worse, but we are getting closer.
If it was another team other than the rags leading, I don't think it would seem as bad.
Don't get me wrong I'm disappointed to have lead the league for so long and drift off towards the final stages, but again, we are getting closer. It's an improvement on last year and if Mancini learns from his mistakes, we will win the league and other comps.

[Grob]

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

No guarantees in football, especially in the PL. And look at Porto, Inter, or Chelsea now. Is that where you want City to be in 3 years after Mourinho leaves?

No guarantees I agree, i never said it was one. Mourinho is probably the closest thing to one though.

I dont think Porto have struggled domestically or in Europe either since he won the lot in 2004, they won the league in 06, 07, 08, 09, and 11, the portugeuse cup in 06, 09, 10, and 11, and the UEFA cup and Super Cup in 2011. Wikipedia is a wonderfull thing. So if thats whats known as falling apart then the future looks bleak.

Post Mourinho, Chelsea won the league in 10, the FA cup in 07, 09 and 11, the league cup in 07, and made the champions league final in 08. I'd hope for better from City post a Mourinho reign if im honest, but they are on their 7th manager in 4 and a half years so Im guessing that has more to do with their current state than what JM did pre 2007.

Inter, OK, he left in 2010 and all Inter won in the next season is the coppa italia. Inter though are also on their 5th manager in less than 2 years so maybe that has more to do with their current state.

The above says to me therefore that the appointment after Mourinho is extremely crucial moreover anything else.

[Beefymcfc]

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

Mancini won the FA Cup in his first season here, whats your point? You think Anchelotti or Mourinho would have guaranteed us the league this year? If so, let me remind you the the grass always seems greener on the other side...

And I'd say the summary above is more of a glass 4/5 full. You can harp on and on about the missing 1/5, but you're losing sight of the bigger picture

Winning the FA Cup is different to winning the Premier League. The 2 achievements are not comparable to me. The only commonalitys are that you get a trophy for winning both and you have to win football matches to win those trophies. If you think they are comparable then fair enough.

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

Whose to say the bigger picture is that Mancini cant get us over this hurdle? All signs since november have certainly pointed that way. What do you think?

Grob, if you don't mind me asking, or anyone for that reason, why do people keep harking back to November as if it was a massive turning point in our season? In November we won 4, drew 1 and lost 1; away win to QPR, good home win against an in-form Toon and a draw away to a solid Dipper side. We also beat Villareal and Arsenal and our only loss was to Napoli, a game that we through away because of our attacking style.

Anyone?

[brite blu sky]

My own sense on Sunday was more that the players were just not up for it, yes they looked like they needed an outlet up the field but to be honest they were not getting stuck in enough to make a case for it, looking at them I don't believe it would have made one jot of difference.
I rekon the players got caught in the headlights and couldn't respond, dumping all the blame on Mancini is crucially missing the point imo.

Undoubtedly the team were rubbish on Sunday. However, in the main, they were bought by Mancini, trained by Mancini, prepared by Mancini and able to be adjusted or changed on the pitch by Mancini. So yes, the players take some responsibility for the performance, but I don't think the buck stops there, as they say.

Me neither, long term the manager is the one who has to sort everything out, full stop. My points on here are in response to the disappointment being heaped on the manager as a reaction. There is valid criticism of Mancini all season long, but you also have to square what the players do. I agree with ted main point that he should have done more in Sundays game to throw the kitchen sink at them. I just don't think it would have worked in this case - matter of opinion and feeling i guess but thats that.

Iv'e tried to point out why we have not stayed the course but it is jsut too raw at the mo to go down well - fair dos but the manager and the players have to look at it the way i am, because they have to get on with it and not sit with a marde face moping.

[Ted Hughes]

My own sense on Sunday was more that the players were just not up for it, yes they looked like they needed an outlet up the field but to be honest they were not getting stuck in enough to make a case for it, looking at them I don't believe it would have made one jot of difference.
I rekon the players got caught in the headlights and couldn't respond, dumping all the blame on Mancini is crucially missing the point imo.

Undoubtedly the team were rubbish on Sunday. However, in the main, they were bought by Mancini, trained by Mancini, prepared by Mancini and able to be adjusted or changed on the pitch by Mancini. So yes, the players take some responsibility for the performance, but I don't think the buck stops there, as they say.

Me neither, long term the manager is the one who has to sort everything out, full stop. My points on here are in response to the disappointment being heaped on the manager as a reaction. There is valid criticism of Mancini all season long, but you also have to square what the players do. I agree with ted main point that he should have done more in Sundays game to throw the kitchen sink at them. I just don't think it would have worked in this case - matter of opinion and feeling i guess but thats that.

Iv'e tried to point out why we have not stayed the course but it is jsut too raw at the mo to go down well - fair dos but the manager and the players have to look at it the way i am, because they have to get on with it and not sit with a marde face moping.

The point isn't whether you are right or I am right that it would or wouldn't work, the point is that we didn't try to find out.

It's not a small point, it's a gargantuan one.

[Grob]

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

Mancini won the FA Cup in his first season here, whats your point? You think Anchelotti or Mourinho would have guaranteed us the league this year? If so, let me remind you the the grass always seems greener on the other side...

And I'd say the summary above is more of a glass 4/5 full. You can harp on and on about the missing 1/5, but you're losing sight of the bigger picture

Winning the FA Cup is different to winning the Premier League. The 2 achievements are not comparable to me. The only commonalitys are that you get a trophy for winning both and you have to win football matches to win those trophies. If you think they are comparable then fair enough.

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

Whose to say the bigger picture is that Mancini cant get us over this hurdle? All signs since november have certainly pointed that way. What do you think?

Grob, if you don't mind me asking, or anyone for that reason, why do people keep harking back to November as if it was a massive turning point in our season? In November we won 4, drew 1 and lost 1; away win to QPR, good home win against an in-form Toon and a draw away to a solid Dipper side. We also beat Villareal and Arsenal and our only loss was to Napoli, a game that we through away because of our attacking style.

Anyone?

November is when I first thought our form started to faulter, even though our results were a month away from doing so.

[Ted Hughes]

Rags away was our last real top quality away performance.

Imo, that's down to teams upping their game against us but also at the same time, we looked fucking terrible with Savic in the team at QPR & then were beaten in Napoli, not by a great side, effectively ending our Chumps Lg run.

That showed everyone, including our players, that we were stoppable.

[brite blu sky]

My own sense on Sunday was more that the players were just not up for it, yes they looked like they needed an outlet up the field but to be honest they were not getting stuck in enough to make a case for it, looking at them I don't believe it would have made one jot of difference.
I rekon the players got caught in the headlights and couldn't respond, dumping all the blame on Mancini is crucially missing the point imo.

Undoubtedly the team were rubbish on Sunday. However, in the main, they were bought by Mancini, trained by Mancini, prepared by Mancini and able to be adjusted or changed on the pitch by Mancini. So yes, the players take some responsibility for the performance, but I don't think the buck stops there, as they say.

Me neither, long term the manager is the one who has to sort everything out, full stop. My points on here are in response to the disappointment being heaped on the manager as a reaction. There is valid criticism of Mancini all season long, but you also have to square what the players do. I agree with ted main point that he should have done more in Sundays game to throw the kitchen sink at them. I just don't think it would have worked in this case - matter of opinion and feeling i guess but thats that.

Iv'e tried to point out why we have not stayed the course but it is jsut too raw at the mo to go down well - fair dos but the manager and the players have to look at it the way i am, because they have to get on with it and not sit with a marde face moping.

The point isn't whether you are right or I am right that it would or wouldn't work, the point is that we didn't try to find out.

It's not a small point, it's a gargantuan one.

Spot on that it is not about being right, agree with the point about not trying. We have analised that exact thing before on here. Sunday though we didn't have a grip on the game, for me it was different, precarious and imo nothing much would have made a difference, well I'll take that back a bit of gung-ho from Micah would have, but he wasn't even there, I have more of a beef about that tbh. I very much imagine that Mancini and Kidd for that matter were at a loss and going loopy as the whole team were not performing. I can't start to say how much either Tevez or Dzeko would not have made any difference at all, but the point you make is solid, he should have tried anyway.

[Beefymcfc]

No you dont

Mourinho won the Prem in his first season here

Anchelotti won the Prem in his first season here

As for the attached post, glass half full summary, nothing wrong with that.

Mancini won the FA Cup in his first season here, whats your point? You think Anchelotti or Mourinho would have guaranteed us the league this year? If so, let me remind you the the grass always seems greener on the other side...

And I'd say the summary above is more of a glass 4/5 full. You can harp on and on about the missing 1/5, but you're losing sight of the bigger picture

Winning the FA Cup is different to winning the Premier League. The 2 achievements are not comparable to me. The only commonalitys are that you get a trophy for winning both and you have to win football matches to win those trophies. If you think they are comparable then fair enough.

I think Mourinho would have won us the league this year with this squad. I'd have said that at the start of the season. Anchelotti maybe a better bet than Mancini, its up for debate. I wouldnt hang my hat either way on him.

Whose to say the bigger picture is that Mancini cant get us over this hurdle? All signs since november have certainly pointed that way. What do you think?

Grob, if you don't mind me asking, or anyone for that reason, why do people keep harking back to November as if it was a massive turning point in our season? In November we won 4, drew 1 and lost 1; away win to QPR, good home win against an in-form Toon and a draw away to a solid Dipper side. We also beat Villareal and Arsenal and our only loss was to Napoli, a game that we through away because of our attacking style.

Anyone?

November is when I first thought our form started to faulter, even though our results were a month away from doing so.

It's not only from you mate, I've seen it written by a few prior to this. Was it the QPR game as that seems to remind me of this November myth?

Even if you thought it was a month after that it was realised, in December we won 4, drawn 1 and lost 1 to Chelsea with 10 men and in my opinion, some dodgy decisions. We won 3 in the league, the first one we walked Norwich 5-1, beat Arsenal in the best game of the season (for me) and cruised to a convincing 3-0 win against Stoke. We also beat Bayern 2-0 which was not mean feat by any standards.

The draw though, was against a very disciplined West Brom away from home who basically put 10 men in their 22 yard box and stopped any chance of us getting through, which I applauded at the time through gritted teeth. Sunderland up next, away from home, who copied Brom and got a lucky goal, which was offside of course, that was another of those games where it didn't matter what we did, there was just no way through. Again, disappointing but the performance was still of the quality we've seen earlier in the season yet lack of goals made it look like we were dropping off form. Not to worry though, Dippers up next and an intelligent counter-attacking game made things look a little sweeter with a 3-0 win. Only downside was the Barry sending off for what can only be described as ridiculous considering what Adam et al were getting away with. But who was up next, now that's another story.

So, looking at the above which was from November to the start of Jan it's hard to see where we lost our form as we had still only lost 2 in the league and drawn 2 away from home, the other coming to Fulham back in September. Furthermore, our goal tally's over the months until the FA Cup Derby may back up the myth but it doesn't tell the whole story. Here's the breakdown for all games:

Aug - 12 in 3 = 4 per game
Sep - 10 in 6 = 1.66 per game
Oct - 24 in 6 = 4 per game
Nov - 12 in 6 = 2 per game
Dec - 12 in 6 = 2 per game
Jan - 3 in 2 = 1.5 per game

From those figures you could can clearly see that over those first 5 months we only hit big (and they were big, unprecedented actually) on 2 occasions, with an average of 2 or below on 3 occasions whereas the average for all games played until that point was 2.5 goals per game; still, impressive figures if I may say. So, for me, November seems to be just a month that was pulled out of the air, possibly due to the 3-2 hard fought win at QPR but you could also say that about the earlier game against Bolton, so that makes it irrelevant.

And this is why I ask where this November date has come from as I just can't see it anywhere during that month, or even the next. For me, our form dropped off after the league game against Liverpool after Barry was sent off and the subsequent suspension of Vince, compounded by the loss to the ACN of the Toure brothers. Even after the shit Derby defeat we only lost 1 game in the league, to Everton away, and won the other 5 games up until the end of Feb (all games won in Feb - 2 home, 1 away).

So, where November came from, I haven't got a clue?

[Beefymcfc]

My own sense on Sunday was more that the players were just not up for it, yes they looked like they needed an outlet up the field but to be honest they were not getting stuck in enough to make a case for it, looking at them I don't believe it would have made one jot of difference.
I rekon the players got caught in the headlights and couldn't respond, dumping all the blame on Mancini is crucially missing the point imo.

Undoubtedly the team were rubbish on Sunday. However, in the main, they were bought by Mancini, trained by Mancini, prepared by Mancini and able to be adjusted or changed on the pitch by Mancini. So yes, the players take some responsibility for the performance, but I don't think the buck stops there, as they say.

Me neither, long term the manager is the one who has to sort everything out, full stop. My points on here are in response to the disappointment being heaped on the manager as a reaction. There is valid criticism of Mancini all season long, but you also have to square what the players do. I agree with ted main point that he should have done more in Sundays game to throw the kitchen sink at them. I just don't think it would have worked in this case - matter of opinion and feeling i guess but thats that.

Iv'e tried to point out why we have not stayed the course but it is jsut too raw at the mo to go down well - fair dos but the manager and the players have to look at it the way i am, because they have to get on with it and not sit with a marde face moping.

The point isn't whether you are right or I am right that it would or wouldn't work, the point is that we didn't try to find out.

It's not a small point, it's a gargantuan one.

Spot on that it is not about being right, agree with the point about not trying. We have analised that exact thing before on here. Sunday though we didn't have a grip on the game, for me it was different, precarious and imo nothing much would have made a difference, well I'll take that back a bit of gung-ho from Micah would have, but he wasn't even there, I have more of a beef about that tbh. I very much imagine that Mancini and Kidd for that matter were at a loss and going loopy as the whole team were not performing. I can't start to say how much either Tevez or Dzeko would not have made any difference at all, but the point you make is solid, he should have tried anyway.

Maybe it was just a point of the players learning what had gone on at the Swamp and realised that the fight for the title was futile, leaving them deflated to say the least. I know I was feeling that way and had to turn the Rag game off, grab a Stella and jump on the mower, it was that shit. It had to be if I'm doing the garden when footies on!

[Grob]

It's not only from you mate, I've seen it written by a few prior to this. Was it the QPR game as that seems to remind me of this November myth?

Even if you thought it was a month after that it was realised, in December we won 4, drawn 1 and lost 1 to Chelsea with 10 men and in my opinion, some dodgy decisions. We won 3 in the league, the first one we walked Norwich 5-1, beat Arsenal in the best game of the season (for me) and cruised to a convincing 3-0 win against Stoke. We also beat Bayern 2-0 which was not mean feat by any standards.

The draw though, was against a very disciplined West Brom away from home who basically put 10 men in their 22 yard box and stopped any chance of us getting through, which I applauded at the time through gritted teeth. Sunderland up next, away from home, who copied Brom and got a lucky goal, which was offside of course, that was another of those games where it didn't matter what we did, there was just no way through. Again, disappointing but the performance was still of the quality we've seen earlier in the season yet lack of goals made it look like we were dropping off form. Not to worry though, Dippers up next and an intelligent counter-attacking game made things look a little sweeter with a 3-0 win. Only downside was the Barry sending off for what can only be described as ridiculous considering what Adam et al were getting away with. But who was up next, now that's another story.

So, looking at the above which was from November to the start of Jan it's hard to see where we lost our form as we had still only lost 2 in the league and drawn 2 away from home, the other coming to Fulham back in September. Furthermore, our goal tally's over the months until the FA Cup Derby may back up the myth but it doesn't tell the whole story. Here's the breakdown for all games:

Aug - 12 in 3 = 4 per game
Sep - 10 in 6 = 1.66 per game
Oct - 24 in 6 = 4 per game
Nov - 12 in 6 = 2 per game
Dec - 12 in 6 = 2 per game
Jan - 3 in 2 = 1.5 per game

From those figures you could can clearly see that over those first 5 months we only hit big (and they were big, unprecedented actually) on 2 occasions, with an average of 2 or below on 3 occasions whereas the average for all games played until that point was 2.5 goals per game; still, impressive figures if I may say. So, for me, November seems to be just a month that was pulled out of the air, possibly due to the 3-2 hard fought win at QPR but you could also say that about the earlier game against Bolton, so that makes it irrelevant.

And this is why I ask where this November date has come from as I just can't see it anywhere during that month, or even the next. For me, our form dropped off after the league game against Liverpool after Barry was sent off and the subsequent suspension of Vince, compounded by the loss to the ACN of the Toure brothers. Even after the shit Derby defeat we only lost 1 game in the league, to Everton away, and won the other 5 games up until the end of Feb (all games won in Feb - 2 home, 1 away).

So, where November came from, I haven't got a clue?

Appreciate the analysis Beefy.

I have no analysis to share, just my opinion.

I thought QPR away was a hard fought victory after the lord mayors show, the kind champions grind out. Certainly not the start of the rot. Apart from Savic I thought we did well to a man so i'm not sure why your hanging your hat on this fixture? Maybe others have identified this and you mean them but you've replied to my post im assuming 1 to 1 debate here and i dont think ive ever mentioned and wouldnt as it didnt have me worried at all.

My first reservations were Napoli away where on paper we had the better players, team and form, but we fell into the same traps as in the first leg which showed either tactical arrogance or that we just hadnt learnt anything, and I thought Mancini and Potato were comprehensively outthought, over the 2 legs aswell. It worried me. November 22nd.

I then thought against Chelsea when we went down to 10 then we surrendered posession too easily against what was at the time not a very good or confident Chelsea team, though i put the result down as an unfortunate 1 off where the stars just didnt align. Then obviously we moved onto the West Brom game which a thought was just another 1 of those days. But then at Sunderland it started to feel like the tentative performances were becoming the norm away from home and we were now starting to drop points because of it. 1st January, just over a month after the Napoli game.

Thats where November and my last point in general came from. Happy to debate the above as always.

[brite blu sky]

That did cross my mind too Beefy, but I would have to say that if professional players - ok qualify that, some of the best professional players take it that badly and don't have the personal psychology to pick themselves up then it is pretty pathetic imo. As fan it was a fucling travesty. I dont usually watch rag games for obvious reasons, and had literally just turned it on. How the fuck that linesman with a clear as day view ... even replayed by sky.. didnt make a call. I turned off like you and concluded that it was just a fix.
But I'm only a fan and not a pro. At my own job nothing and no-one and no event will stop me, bar firing me. That is what I would expect from our players, single minded clarity and bloodymindedness. maybe that goes part way to being more pissed at the players than Mancini, they were on the whole pathetic on Sunday, it smelt like something was up, maybe your right but I'm left thinking that is almost even worse than them just clamming up under pressure.

Maybe we need to send the whole squad over to Doomy's house, for some err... re-education?