Mancini has to go?

[Beefymcfc]

Appreciate the analysis Beefy.

I have no analysis to share, just my opinion.

I thought QPR away was a hard fought victory after the lord mayors show, the kind champions grind out. Certainly not the start of the rot. Apart from Savic I thought we did well to a man so i'm not sure why your hanging your hat on this fixture? Maybe others have identified this and you mean them but you've replied to my post im assuming 1 to 1 debate here and i dont think ive ever mentioned and wouldnt as it didnt have me worried at all.

My first reservations were Napoli away where on paper we had the better players, team and form, but we fell into the same traps as in the first leg which showed either tactical arrogance or that we just hadnt learnt anything, and I thought Mancini and Potato were comprehensively outthought, over the 2 legs aswell. It worried me. November 22nd.

I then thought against Chelsea when we went down to 10 then we surrendered posession too easily against what was at the time not a very good or confident Chelsea team, though i put the result down as an unfortunate 1 off where the stars just didnt align. Then obviously we moved onto the West Brom game which a thought was just another 1 of those days. But then at Sunderland it started to feel like the tentative performances were becoming the norm away from home and we were now starting to drop points because of it. 1st January, just over a month after the Napoli game.

Thats where November and my last point in general came from. Happy to debate the above as always.

As I said mate, wasn't you who said QPR, I'd read it somewhere else. And I wasn't trying to knock you down about the dates, just that I'd heard it mentioned before (a few times actually) and wanted too dispell it. As you were the last person who pointed it out it was apt to ask the question. From what you are saying it looks like you've looked back and seen a trend and I was trying to work out where this occured. You mention the Napoli game but at the same time it could've been said about the Bayern game where once they went in front the players seemed to lose all will to get something out of it, regardless of what Mancini did. And that was before the Tevez incident!

The only thing I'd say with regard to you response is that there were long periods between each however this doesn't go to show that you are wrong as it could've been the individual performances leading through that have made your mind. Just a differing of views I suppose as I feel/thought we actually played very well for the majority.

[Grob]

As I said mate, wasn't you who said QPR, I'd read it somewhere else. And I wasn't trying to knock you down about the dates, just that I'd heard it mentioned before (a few times actually) and wanted too dispell it. As you were the last person who pointed it out it was apt to ask the question. From what you are saying it looks like you've looked back and seen a trend and I was trying to work out where this occured. You mention the Napoli game but at the same time it could've been said about the Bayern game where once they went in front the players seemed to lose all will to get something out of it, regardless of what Mancini did. And that was before the Tevez incident!

The only thing I'd say with regard to you response is that there were long periods between each however this doesn't go to show that you are wrong as it could've been the individual performances leading through that have made your mind. Just a differing of views I suppose as I feel/thought we actually played very well for the majority.

Fair enough if QPR was one that ruffled a few feathers at the time, after smashing the rags 6-1 a hard fought 3-2 over a poor but highly motivated QPR side doesnt look ideal on paper i guess. It wasnt a convincing performance but i thought we showed great metal to win.

I only looked back at the fixture list for the dates. Napoli away and Sunderland away have always stuck out to me as fixtures where I thought we made a mess of a situation where we should have at least grinded results out, ala QPR.

Ive specifically looked at only non winning results in the first half of the season just to explain the gaps.

From the other non winning results not mentioned and to why I didnt see them as worrying at the time:-

Fulham away I put down to one of those days, an anomoly result.

Napoli at home I thought we failed to win due to Napoli executing a great counterattacking gameplan. I thought the lessons were there for all to see and this was a fixture the coaching staff should have looked at in minute detail to understand certain tactical flaws in our team that were exposed on that night. The single biggest fixture we needed to digest, understand and learn from. I thought for the return leg at least we would have learnt from this game, set up accordingly, tactically and the formation, and ground out a result. None of that happened obviously, hence where my initial concerns came from.

Bayern away I thought we started well but were overpowered by a better team. That 15 minutes before half time where they destroyed us was easily the best passage of play ive seen from a team against us. Better than the first 20 on Sunday IMO from Arsenel as we were flying at that point in time and full of confidence rather than the shadow of a title challanging team we were on Sunday.

Its interesting to look back at some of these fixtures so thanks for jogging the memory:)

[Beefymcfc]

As I said mate, wasn't you who said QPR, I'd read it somewhere else. And I wasn't trying to knock you down about the dates, just that I'd heard it mentioned before (a few times actually) and wanted too dispell it. As you were the last person who pointed it out it was apt to ask the question. From what you are saying it looks like you've looked back and seen a trend and I was trying to work out where this occured. You mention the Napoli game but at the same time it could've been said about the Bayern game where once they went in front the players seemed to lose all will to get something out of it, regardless of what Mancini did. And that was before the Tevez incident!

The only thing I'd say with regard to you response is that there were long periods between each however this doesn't go to show that you are wrong as it could've been the individual performances leading through that have made your mind. Just a differing of views I suppose as I feel/thought we actually played very well for the majority.

Fair enough if QPR was one that ruffled a few feathers at the time, after smashing the rags 6-1 a hard fought 3-2 over a poor but highly motivated QPR side doesnt look ideal on paper i guess. It wasnt a convincing performance but i thought we showed great metal to win.

I only looked back at the fixture list for the dates. Napoli away and Sunderland away have always stuck out to me as fixtures where I thought we made a mess of a situation where we should have at least grinded results out, ala QPR.

Ive specifically looked at only non winning results in the first half of the season just to explain the gaps.

From the other non winning results not mentioned and to why I didnt see them as worrying at the time:-

Fulham away I put down to one of those days, an anomoly result.

Napoli at home I thought we failed to win due to Napoli executing a great counterattacking gameplan. I thought the lessons were there for all to see and this was a fixture the coaching staff should have looked at in minute detail to understand certain tactical flaws in our team that were exposed on that night. The single biggest fixture we needed to digest, understand and learn from. I thought for the return leg at least we would have learnt from this game, set up accordingly, tactically and the formation, and ground out a result. None of that happened obviously, hence where my initial concerns came from.

Bayern away I thought we started well but were overpowered by a better team. That 15 minutes before half time where they destroyed us was easily the best passage of play ive seen from a team against us. Better than the first 20 on Sunday IMO from Arsenel as we were flying at that point in time and full of confidence rather than the shadow of a title challanging team we were on Sunday.

Its interesting to look back at some of these fixtures so thanks for jogging the memory:)

It's wierd mate, it even changed my opinion a little. I knew we'd done well but not that well, just the odd blip inbetween.

[Grob]

It's wierd mate, it even changed my opinion a little. I knew we'd done well but not that well, just the odd blip inbetween.

Yes mate, all in all, up until Sunderland away nearly every non winning result had a certain justification to it for me. I would be interested to hear differing views on what we've just discussed and the opinions on the non winning fixtures in 2011 ive just shared.

Splitting the season in 2, pre Sunderland and Sunderland and beyond...

Pre

Results (all competitions) - 20 wins (74%), 4 draws (15%), 3 defeats (11%)

League points accumulation - 45 from 54 available (83%)

Sunderland and beyond

Results (all competitions) - 11 wins (52%), 3 draws (14%), 7 defeats (33%)

League points accumulation - 26 from 42 (62%)

Interesting stats. Of course taking the Sunderland game can be considered arbitary but that was the game for me as previously explained. A game carrys just above a 2% swing FYI

[brite blu sky]

It's wierd mate, it even changed my opinion a little. I knew we'd done well but not that well, just the odd blip inbetween.

Yes mate, all in all, up until Sunderland away nearly every non winning result had a certain justification to it for me. I would be interested to hear differing views on what we've just discussed and the opinions on the non winning fixtures in 2011 ive just shared.

Splitting the season in 2, pre Sunderland and Sunderland and beyond...

Pre

Results (all competitions) - 20 wins (74%), 4 draws (15%), 3 defeats (11%)

League points accumulation - 45 from 54 available (83%)

Sunderland and beyond

Results (all competitions) - 11 wins (52%), 3 draws (14%), 7 defeats (33%)

League points accumulation - 26 from 42 (62%)

Interesting stats. Of course taking the Sunderland game can be considered arbitary but that was the game for me as previously explained. A game carrys just above a 2% swing FYI

Just read the last few pages, but not sure I got what you call the non-winning result before Sunderland having some kind of justification, did I miss a list of justifying points for previous losses?

The stats look interesting enough, seem to back up a sense with me that things have just slowly slipped away, drip drip, it just got slowly worse until everyone noticed we were struggling to score. If I remmber sentiment on here correctly I think everyone was waiting for us to spring back into life.. and it never really happened.

[Grob]

Just read the last few pages, but not sure I got what you call the non-winning result before Sunderland having some kind of justification, did I miss a list of justifying points for previous losses?

Yes mate, top of this page and near the bottom of the last page?

What was your take on some of those results?

[Beefymcfc]

It's wierd mate, it even changed my opinion a little. I knew we'd done well but not that well, just the odd blip inbetween.

Yes mate, all in all, up until Sunderland away nearly every non winning result had a certain justification to it for me. I would be interested to hear differing views on what we've just discussed and the opinions on the non winning fixtures in 2011 ive just shared.

Splitting the season in 2, pre Sunderland and Sunderland and beyond...

Pre

Results (all competitions) - 20 wins (74%), 4 draws (15%), 3 defeats (11%)

League points accumulation - 45 from 54 available (83%)

Sunderland and beyond

Results (all competitions) - 11 wins (52%), 3 draws (14%), 7 defeats (33%)

League points accumulation - 26 from 42 (62%)

Interesting stats. Of course taking the Sunderland game can be considered arbitary but that was the game for me as previously explained. A game carrys just above a 2% swing FYI

Interesting indeed, I'll be having a look at them tomorrow. The Mrs has just passed me a Brandy so I daren't not look further than going up. After the game of course.

[CityGer]

Those pre and post Sunderland stats are pretty telling.

Without the aid of any stats, that game did seem like a massive turning point. It's not just our results that suffered on the back of it, the quality of our football deteriorated and our belief seemed to vanish.

Perhaps a combination of factors (Yaya, Vinny, Savic, Silva's form, teams sussing us), triggered by the nature of that defeat started a slide. It's a worry for me, as someone who wants Bobby to remain in charge, that the slide resulted in capitulation in the last few weeks.

It's almost as if when the going got tough the players and manager didn't have the minerals for it.

Bobby strikes me a 'shut up and get on with' sort. He may need to learn to be a bit more supportive and use a bit more carrot than stick in future.

[brite blu sky]

Ah ok sorry. So Napoli as one, return leg another, Chelsea, Brom and Sunderland.

Chelsea stands out as having other circumstances - so forget that. You suggest arrogance at not learning from napoli 1. I'd have to agree with that, it was. As I am a believer in the players not being robots for the manager, I'd also say that arrogance could be as much the players fault rather than Platt the Potato impressionist and Bob. It has a ring to it though as the team were invincible prior to that with oppos cowering into the grass. Were we just too up our own arses? Didn't take the warning from napoli 1 and just assume to what had always worked? Napoli 2 should have put paid to that.
Brom were very stubborn, maybe City thought that was a one off and wouldn't be repeated by too many teams, then when it was and worse defeat from a nicked goal it was all too late dawning on them looking in the mirror that they were in danger of being sussed?

I really don't know but at some point what smells like arrogance has turned into lack of confidence.. perhaps after the Sunderland defeat. Initially that has been against teams adopting a highly defensive strategy, more lately teams getting at us.

If I had to put a pin on an overall type problem it would be that slowly but surely teams have understood us and -this is the key - we have stood still. We have stayed trying to do the same thing that early season worked so well. Fluid and creative it might be but just like barca it can get predictable. If oppos kept their nerve and waited City would gift them an opening while most of them were up the pitch and going forwards. We have seen it since Napoli 1 and so has everyone else.

So not evolving our game is my take.

[Ted Hughes]

The QPR game was the first time in the Premier League that our defence had looked, and was highlighted on television as being, a great big bag of steaming shite. Before that, people such as Hansen & Lawro were waxing lyrical about how all great teams are built around great defenders blah blah blah, then suddenly, they were showing this complete fucking circus clown & saying "if City get an injury there, they are in trouble". It was the end of our look of 'invincibility' & it had an effect on our players and everyone elses.

I don't think many people on here realised at the time (or were willing to admit) just how absolutely fucking dogshite the bloke was. I can remember having big arguments about it.

We have never looked anything like the same team away from home, since Savic appeared in that game, never.

[ant london]

I would like to pay Slobodan Milosevic to take away our Stefan S problem....maybe he's part Bosnian?

[brite blu sky]

Christ! I hope you don't know where Savic lives Ted

[Grob]

I really don't know but at some point what smells like arrogance has turned into lack of confidence.. perhaps after the Sunderland defeat. Initially that has been against teams adopting a highly defensive strategy, more lately teams getting at us.

If I had to put a pin on an overall type problem it would be that slowly but surely teams have understood us and -this is the key - we have stood still. We have stayed trying to do the same thing that early season worked so well. Fluid and creative it might be but just like barca it can get predictable. If oppos kept their nerve and waited City would gift them an opening while most of them were up the pitch and going forwards. We have seen it since Napoli 1 and so has everyone else.

So not evolving our game is my take.

Sunderland is becoming a rather pinnicle fixture now. I think that result was the first in the league where I think a pattern started to emerge.

I think after Napoli 2 we started to get less and less adventurous away from home. Looking back at these games we have 2 league away wins and 1 in the Europa league. 2 1-0's and a comeback victory which was based on the opposition scoring an owngoal. Im struggling to think of any away games post Napoli 2 that we dominated or even dominated for a sustained period? Villa would have had a point but for a wondersave from Hart and Wigan were all over us in the second half for sustained periods.

I dont think we're covering any new ground when it comes to away form but if we take away United/Spurs/Villereal, have we been convincing from start to finish in any away game?

I cant think of any.

Away from home then what we are doing clearly isnt working. Will Mancini change it up now the pressure is off in our final 3 away fixtures and maybe try something different? Do him and Potato have something up their sleeve?

[Grob]

The QPR game was the first time in the Premier League that our defence had looked, and was highlighted on television as being, a great big bag of steaming shite. Before that, people such as Hansen & Lawro were waxing lyrical about how all great teams are built around great defenders blah blah blah, then suddenly, they were showing this complete fucking circus clown & saying "if City get an injury there, they are in trouble". It was the end of our look of 'invincibility' & it had an effect on our players and everyone elses.

I don't think many people on here realised at the time (or were willing to admit) just how absolutely fucking dogshite the bloke was. I can remember having big arguments about it.

We have never looked anything like the same team away from home, since Savic appeared in that game, never.

I cant argue with the main point. Savic was and is completely out of his depth and will never be good enough. His awareness is shocking.

Looking at the results when he had his first spell of starts in place of Kompany, it didnt negatively affect us too much and we had a strong October even wih him in the team. Maybe your right though, maybe that air of invincibility went? Im not so sure though as we currently have the best defensive record in the league in terms of goals conceeded (26 in 32 games), and that was with 4 or 5 starts from Savic. I think the turn around in away form has to do with us being less adventurous going forward and basically bringing pressure and trouble on ourselves.

After QPR Mancini perservered with Savic when he shouldnt have in hindsight. I can see why he did as he obviously wanted him to grow into the role. After that initial spell in October though, we should have come up with a better contingency if something happened again. In the end we did with Richards moving accross, but the damage had been done.

[Swales4ever]

Whilst I'm not cheering on a lynching party to hang Mancini & bring in Rafa fucking Benitez, which is far more likely than getting Mourinho, some of the posts making excuses for his mistakes are fucking ridiculous.

I don't want him sacked, I've backed him all season but I've also freely admitted to stuff that he's done which has stunk the place out. Arsenal was the lowest point for me but the bloke signed & PLAYED SAVIC FOR FUCKS SAKE. That's one great big steaming shite of a mistake.

The day Savic played his 1st City game was THE DAY that people started to think City were vulnerable, after watching a complete fucking retard (Jay Bothroyd) turn him inside out. Then ALMOST ALL THE OTHER GAMES HE PLAYED, we spent half the time shitting ourselves & being knocked out of competitions. THIS WAS MANCINI'S FAULT.

Back him by all means, as I do, but back him honestly mistakes and all, not some phoney Pravda 'pretend it's everyone else's fault' kind of way. There is an argument for sacking him. It's not stupid, it's fair but imo it's wrong at this time & there are only about two blokes in the world who MAY improve on him.

If one of those two comes in, it's understandable but imo, still a gamble.

Replacing him for Tom Dick or Harry is not a good idea at all unless the players now force him out, in which case, keeping him becomes the gamble.

Oh, a big yes!,
I missed it in my acknowledgment of Bob's few faults and not because of my bias, but for a sort of Freudian removal, I suspect. anyhow my thoughts of that are public and available on threads relevant to any Savic's appearance.

The point still remains the same as pointed out by Sir John68, esq.: managers make mistakes and the best are just those who makes fewer and learn from them, like Sir Baconcunt. the only inexcusable failure of a manager who has already shown his masterplan is spot on is when he fails to retain the leadership of the team.

[Moses]

tonights result has spelled to me why he should go. I am not happy after tonight. We should have rested Silva 3 months ago and it has took another suspension for him to leave out special needs up front. Yet again Mancini stumbled into a victory. The sooner we replace him with Pardew the better.

[Swales4ever]

tonights result has spelled to me why he should go. I am not happy after tonight. We should have rested Silva 3 months ago and it has took another suspension for him to leave out special needs up front. Yet again Mancini stumbled into a victory. The sooner we replace him with Pardew the better.

where's that Piccsnumberoneblue's banner that spells "X [manager] OUT" when You need one?

[Beefymcfc]

He's not having it, is he. Just seen his comments post-game and even though Sky and BBC are trying to build it back up he isn't having any of it, basically saying it's over. He's learning.

[Moses]

In the press conference, Mancini admitted that he did not even know United were playing.

[Hazy2]

Just a heads up or Saturday if Bobby reads this, Norwich are like Swansea , thye will let us play our game. they have a decent target man in Holt,midfield like to get forward, sharp on the 2nd ball and have good energy, Back 4 is ok nothing special, The fans will be well up for it. They have a good manager who likes to play proper football, we are better than them Fact.

" SO LETS NOT BE FUCKING ABOUT WITH ANY THOUGHTS OF PLAYING IT TIGHT, KOLAROV WILL NOT BE REQUIED, AS WE WILLHAVE TO DEFEND WELL. STICK TO THE STRONGEST TEAM PLEASE, GET ANOTHER 3 POINTS CHEERS.