So next seasons Chumps

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Slipped under the radar a bit didn't it but we are guarenteed to be in the Chumps League next season. Not sure if that means outright or we can still end up in the qualifyers.
Either way, let's hope we somehow climb up a ranking before the draw, I doubt that somehow so let's hope we don't get as tough a draw as last time.
Outside that I'm left thinking that we only just coped with covering the games we had with the squad, so with a view to doing better this time we may need a couple of new players in. That maybe gonna happen anyway as discussed elsewhere, but I'm thinking here a Barry type backup/understudy.

So the real question is did we learn enough in the games we had to make a better shot at it. Personally I thought we looked decent and basically apart from a mini collapse v Bayern looked the better team in our games. The main thing is if both Mancini and the players have learnt enough from the Napoli games to not get caught out in the same way.

I think our main shortcoming in the Chumps was our nativity. We played very attacking, even away from home, and underestimated the opponents.

Bang on the money.
If we played at Napoli this week, we would make the same dreadful botch up of it.

I think Bob and the team has learned from that and will be much better prepared next season.

I'm not yet convinced they have learnt, Bob or the players. I rekon if asked they would all say. Oh yes we have learnt we can't be like that... and then go do exactly the same thing. imo this lot are good at Thinking they have learnt.

[Swales4ever]

Slipped under the radar a bit didn't it but we are guarenteed to be in the Chumps League next season. Not sure if that means outright or we can still end up in the qualifyers.
Either way, let's hope we somehow climb up a ranking before the draw, I doubt that somehow so let's hope we don't get as tough a draw as last time.
Outside that I'm left thinking that we only just coped with covering the games we had with the squad, so with a view to doing better this time we may need a couple of new players in. That maybe gonna happen anyway as discussed elsewhere, but I'm thinking here a Barry type backup/understudy.

So the real question is did we learn enough in the games we had to make a better shot at it. Personally I thought we looked decent and basically apart from a mini collapse v Bayern looked the better team in our games. The main thing is if both Mancini and the players have learnt enough from the Napoli games to not get caught out in the same way.

I think our main shortcoming in the Chumps was our [highlight]nativity[/highlight]. We played very attacking, even away from home, and underestimated the opponents.

I think Bob and the team has learned from that and will be much better prepared next season.

totally agreed.
funny is that Bob is still perceived "somewhere" to have an inconscious afterthought tendency to negative football!
whereas his major fault this season has been to stick with the idea to go huge places and stick with our free flowing pattern of football, while it would had been more usefull a more pragmatic approach at Munchen and Naples.

I don't think the actual issue has been underestimation though, rather than a questionable idea to instill faith to the team on the so called Plan A and football pattern.

[Ted Hughes]

Slipped under the radar a bit didn't it but we are guarenteed to be in the Chumps League next season. Not sure if that means outright or we can still end up in the qualifyers.
Either way, let's hope we somehow climb up a ranking before the draw, I doubt that somehow so let's hope we don't get as tough a draw as last time.
Outside that I'm left thinking that we only just coped with covering the games we had with the squad, so with a view to doing better this time we may need a couple of new players in. That maybe gonna happen anyway as discussed elsewhere, but I'm thinking here a Barry type backup/understudy.

So the real question is did we learn enough in the games we had to make a better shot at it. Personally I thought we looked decent and basically apart from a mini collapse v Bayern looked the better team in our games. The main thing is if both Mancini and the players have learnt enough from the Napoli games to not get caught out in the same way.

I think our main shortcoming in the Chumps was our [highlight]nativity[/highlight]. We played very attacking, even away from home, and underestimated the opponents.

I think Bob and the team has learned from that and will be much better prepared next season.

totally agreed.
funny is that Bob is still perceived "somewhere" to have an inconscious afterthought tendency to negative football!
whereas his major fault this season has been to stick with the idea to go huge places and stick with our free flowing pattern of football, while it would had been more usefull a more pragmatic approach at Munchen and Naples.

I don't think the actual issue has been underestimation though, rather than a questionable idea to instill faith to the team on the so called Plan A and football pattern.

I don't think we either attacked or defended in many of the European games, we were just shite.

[Swales4ever]

up to a certain extent I do agree. the player clearly felt the burden of CHUMP on their shoulders and performed shockingly most of the time, plus couldnt get their head up when something went wrong and that was happening while the form was still great domestically.

but you miss to consider some very decent spells - like the start at the Allianz - and definitely You can do better than dismiss a solid argument with just a plain not arsed line.
I really think we could have gone through, despite performances not up to the form, if Bob had set them for the counter with 3 holders, waiting for the good at Munchen and Naples.

[lets all have a disco]

We got ten points any other group we'd have got through.
I can't see why that can't happen again,but you HAVE to win all your home games.

[Ted Hughes]

up to a certain extent I do agree. the player clearly felt the burden of CHUMP on their shoulders and performed shockingly most of the time, plus couldnt get their head up when something went wrong and that was happening while the form was still great domestically.

but you miss to consider some very decent spells - like the start at the Allianz - and definitely You can do better than dismiss a solid argument with just a plain not arsed line.
I really think we could have gone through, despite performances not up to the form, if Bob had set them for the counter with 3 holders, waiting for the good at Munchen and Naples.

On the whole though, we were just poor. I also think we were rubbish in the home game v Porto, & had they not missed a shedload of half chances, we would have struggled to get through that.

Imo, we blew it badly v Napoli though. Playing at the German rag arena was always likely to be a tough game (although we defended like schoolchildren & could esily have stopped the goals) & the reffing was the same as an English rag game.

The performance in the home game v Napoli, would not have beaten a WBA or Bolton imo, it was slow, disorganised & lacking in imagination. I did think at the time that Bob's tactics were hopeless, as Napoli kept getting 4 v 3 situations v our defence & only greediness & ineptitude by their front three stopped them from scoring. Afterwards though, there was an interview with Bob where he explained that they had worked on stopping that but the players simply didn't stick to the plan on the night.

My biggest problem in that game was the number of opportunities we had to put a ball into the 6 yard box but waited until the Napoli defence came accross to cover. This allowed them to stick everybody in the middle of the penalty area & just let us have the ball wide because we never put in any 1st time crosses; always gave them time to come out and stop it. As soon as we did put a ball in early, we almost scored.

I feel that, against that team, the rags would have murdered them with cross after cross after cross & we just played into their hands. It was a sign of things to come for games away at Sunderland etc & our problems v bus parking teams. Villareal almost did a job on us the same way.

Until recently, the rags home record in Europe has been excellent, and throughout the ages it's been pretty much based on high tempo, English style football which imo, most continental teams struggle to stop.

Imo we need to combine more of that with our pass & move game at home, and then, as you say, play a lot tighter away from home. We really need to keep the ball better in the away games too. Teams can't put us under pressure if they haven't got the ball.

[john68]

But Ted, Isn't that veering between excellent and mediocre with good and bad spells of form, just football Mate?

The rags may have been massively successful over the years but even when they dominate the league points wise, they have never really dominated it form wise for the whole season. I can think of very few clubs who have ever done that.

I have long considered that the team that wins the League is more often than not, the team who makes the least mistakes, gets the most luck and/or refereeing decisions.

I think Bob is still on a learning curve too and he is actually learning. I think he has had some hard lessons to learn and come to terms with this season. His admitted naivety regarding referees, the manner in which the club and his players have been attacked in the media, the lies, the twisted stories and the negative spin put about by the rag pr machine. I don't think he expected thatto the extent it happened. He will have been shocked by the vehemence.

He's learning and he'll get there. He now understands more.

[brite blu sky]

But Ted, Isn't that veering between excellent and mediocre with good and bad spells of form, just football Mate?

The rags may have been massively successful over the years but even when they dominate the league points wise, they have never really dominated it form wise for the whole season. I can think of very few clubs who have ever done that.

I have long considered that the team that wins the League is more often than not, the team who makes the least mistakes, gets the most luck and/or refereeing decisions.

I think Bob is still on a learning curve too and he is actually learning. I think he has had some hard lessons to learn and come to terms with this season. His admitted naivety regarding referees, the manner in which the club and his players have been attacked in the media, the lies, the twisted stories and the negative spin put about by the rag pr machine. I don't think he expected thatto the extent it happened. He will have been shocked by the vehemence.

He's learning and he'll get there. He now understands more.

I think it is just football. I thought on the whole we were decent in the CL bearing in mind the oppos are both good and an unknown quantity. My own version of what Ted is trying to say would be that we showed both inexperience and nervousness. The nervousness was a lesser version of what happened recently with the slump in form, looked similar to me and imo was precursor to what has happened in the league when the pressure has allowed itself into heads and messed with the wiring from head to feet.
We always looked a bit laboured in the CL, that for me is just player nerves.

Bob's part was also naive or blasé. If you look at the fact that we have the meanest defence in the PL, suggesting that when in defend mode we are good.. then look at the actual goals conceeded, nearly all of them are counters v disorganised defenders or really silly mistakes. I'm not sure what Bob would have to do tbh, as when we are attacking in force there can be as few as 2 left guarding the shop. Maybe in the CL we just have to limit the amount that go forward. After all we could have played Napoli like they played us and defend in numbers and look to counter and nick goals, we may well have won both games doing that while looking totally uninspiring.
Take Chelsea in these semis, that is the only way they have and are going to get through them.

[john68]

I think one of the problems that we see on here is that what you see is what you get and what you are likely to get in the future.

We saw this with the judgements on Micah a couple of years ago with some posters actually wanting him shipped out right then and there. No allowance was made for age or for learning nor for any possible improvement. Then, there, get rid.

The same has happened to Bob. His negative tactics were berated and and no allowance given that \city were work inprogress and that Bob might just understand the path he was taking, at that time, with the tools at his disposal. This season, we saw a massive change and similar happened. A belief that it would/could go on forever. Little regard was given by some that other coaches and players would be analysing and studying City's modus operandi and working on ways to stop us. It happened and notwithstanding the losses of Tevez, Kompany and Yaya and we were stopped. Teams are always evolving and so are opponents.

I am quite sure that wherever we finish this season, and whatever our record has been, whether domestic or European, the stats will be analysed, the form of players studied and mistakes noted. The team will be strengthened, players spoken with, tactics reviewed and so we will enter next season stronger.

I agree with Ted most of the time and respect his excellent analysis of our play from week to week but I think that Ted and others don't fully acknowledge that all teams, including some great teams suffer their ups and downs.

[Ted Hughes]

I don't think you can afford many downs at this level.

Sure, great teams have them, but they don't have many, & when they do have them is usually the time they miss out on trophies they are expected to win.

Bob will only stay in the City job if he learns how to get a team performing in the Champion's Lg imo. Assuming we compete well again in the Prem next season & don't fuck up, I expect he'll get a maximum of next season & the following one, to get us into the final stages of the CL, probably the semis, or he's toast, even if we win stuff domestically.

So far his European performances have been well below par in both competitions. We were dreadful last season too.

[john68]

I can't disagree with much of that Ted, as I said, the team who wins the League is usually the one who makes the least mistakes. A point I am making is that even the most successful usually make plenty of them and have plenty of downs. The secret being not to make as many as the next team.

I think that at the level we are attempting to achieve, it becomes harder to rise above our competitors and so very few have achieved that and even those who managed it, apart from the rags, none sustained it over the longer period.

In the 20 years history of the Prem, only 4 different clubs have won it; Arsenal 3, Chelsea 3, Blackburn 3 and the rags 12.
In the CL, during the same period, only 3 English sides have actually won it.
These things sometimes take a little bit more time, work and effort than we often have the patience for.

[Swales4ever]

too much beef to be cooked from me right now... :-)
just want to acknowledge very solid points raised by Ted, perhaps a bit unidirectionals and possibly reflecting his temporary mood as suggested by Sir John.

overall the usual great contribution to football debate by Ted, Sir John and BBS, which I'll glad to reflect carefully asap and post my humble contribution further on.

thanks all for making this venue so special.

[brite blu sky]

I don't agree with Ted at all. I think that the owners are savvy and would look to Arsenal and the rags and Liverpool past, for models of ways of doing business. I'd go for them not even getting itchy about lack of success in the CL for 4 years or even more.. providing there was success in the PL. Ted's scenario I can only see if we won bugger all for 2 seasons.

Akin to that is that I'd wager that the owners having chosen Bob in the first place will be looking to see if he shapes up to create a dynasty type long term role. He doesn't look the right type to me, but you never can tell at this stage and as I say I'd bank on Khaldoon and co looking to see how he shapes up with a view to that.
Getting shut of Hughes was imo completely different and a one off. Now that we are CL material and likely to be in with a shout at being in it year on year the short term aims of the club have been met. City have arrived in that sense and I'd be more inclined to assume the pressure from above will reduce slightly now. A serious assessment of how we win the PL will be undertaken and I'd say the CL left to chance more than anything. Once the Prem hurdle is gotten, then there will be another serious assessment of what it would take to gain the European crown.

Bottom line is that generally we are underestimating the owners long termness... possibly due in part to the Hughes sacking.

The other thing that is worth adding is if you think about it then in talking to and selecting a manager for this project the owners must have been looking for someone who had a reasonably detailed plan for what kind of football is going to be able to make an impact at a european wide level to be able to be serious about overthrowing, or at least competing, with the Euro elite teams. Real, Bayern, Barca etc.
We have chatted extensively on how a team could be better than barca, it isn't cut and dried and it isn't easy, but for anyone to be leading this attempt they must be someone with a serious plan of what football would do it.
Personally all my thoughts of where City are going and how they are doing and Mancini in general are framed by the above.

[john68]

BBS,
If you remember back to when our owners took over, they openly stated that this was a long term project and even mentioned a time scale (I can't remember clearly but think 15years was mentioned), by which they wanted City to be the leading club. Despite having their resources, they had planned a gradual investment plan and this was only accelerated because of the FFP.

I totally am convinced that it was this acceleration that changed the mindset of the media and City fans. I have always said that the equation of money = success is nonsense, and have continually argued that teams not players win trophies. We have some way to go yet before even this opening phase of our evolution has finished.

I see no problem for Mancini continuing and I am still hopeful we can do what no other modern team has done and win the League in 2 years of a project (even 3 if you wish to add the Hughes season).

We have come so far, it is almost unbelievable. To think that there is more to come, even from this opening phase is a dream come true. I get quite annoyed when I read some of the negative shite written by City fans on here that merely mirror image the sensational shite purveyed by the gutter press.

MONEY BUYS PLAYERS...TEAMS WIN LEAGUES...THAT IS REALITY.
TEAMS TAKE YEARS TO EVOLVE....THAT IS REALITY.
Anything else is just sensationalist shite presented as truth by the rag media. They do it to increase the pressure on our progress and ridicule us if we don't reach unreasonable heights.

[Socrates]

BBS and 68 both excellent posts and spot on, was a 10 year plan accelerated by FFP and which can revert to a long term plan now we are established as Chumps league qualifiers. No amount of flapping by fans will change that.

[john68]

AS AN ADDENDUM TO THE ABOVE.

If anyone is in doubt as to the quality of our current team, consider that currently our points to games ratio stands at 2.26pts per game.

That ratio would have been good enough to win us the Premier League title in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2010 and 2011.

Not bad for a team produced by a manager who is considered not up to it by so many.

[carl_feedthegoat]

AS AN ADDENDUM TO THE ABOVE.

If anyone is in doubt as to the quality of our current team, consider that currently our points to games ratio stands at 2.26pts per game.

That ratio would have been good enough to win us the Premier League title in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2010 and 2011.

Not bad for a team produced by a manager who is considered not up to it by so many.

Your like a broken record.

Mancini has been critized fairly this season..sometimes over the top reactions during matches but rightly so in other areas.

Get over it.

[Swales4ever]

I feel that, against that team, the rags would have murdered them with cross after cross after cross & we just played into their hands. It was a sign of things to come for games away at Sunderland etc & our problems v bus parking teams. Villareal almost did a job on us the same way.

Until recently, the rags home record in Europe has been excellent, and throughout the ages it's been pretty much based on high tempo, English style football which imo, most continental teams struggle to stop.

Imo we need to combine more of that with our pass & move game at home, and then, as you say, play a lot tighter away from home. We really need to keep the ball better in the away games too. Teams can't put us under pressure if they haven't got the ball.

Ted, learning and understanding your deep reading of any game I've become very reluctant to disagree with You, because I realized that even when I originally sense You are wrong, in the aftermath you often result spot on.
I may have minor points of disagreement at the accurate analysis You have drawn about the weaknesses of our European campaign, but these would probably be just petty, so I turned down there, zipped the relevant part of Your post and stand by them.

as for the major issue You raise above - the need to find a way to combine our pass & move game in alchemy with a high tempo, English style football which [I agree] most continental teams struggle to stop - I will be glad to agree, ideally.
I swear that I am reasoning at it since You first raised the issue, but I am not convinced, as I struggle to get on how it might practically be realized, particularly by a team which is still in becoming, on learning curve of few aspects of the winning attitude/confidence/mentality. It is my opinion that Bob also is working on that, but since now it hadn't worked either at Inter Milan with Ibra nor at City with Edin [ok we are missing that fast winger that AJ is still not yet, etc.].
You are right on stating that the rags are still ways ahead us confidence wise, and that is what is keeping them afloat [along with some little helps from their domestical friends] but there is where may concern lays.
in a nutshell, and because I definitely lack eloquence to pair Your/Sir John/BBS ability to draw an indepth analisys, my concern is all about the fact that trying to combine (or even playing alternatively upon contingency) 2 different styles of football might lead to confusion and result involuntarily disruptive of the winning confidence the players are still learning: as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Ted Hughes]

I don't buy into this 'two different styles of football' thing Mancio.

Barca tonight needed to try something else & couldn't. They have pretty much perfected one 'style' of football, & have been the best team many have seen but they have Messi. Send Chelsea over there midweek, give them Messi, give Barca Danny Sturridge & see who wins.

Even with Messi, they have just lost 2 games on the bounce to teams who used a basic plan to stop their 'style' of football & succeeded.

Why can't a team pass move & press but put crosses in & have someone get on the end of them ?

Barca's game is based on pass & move of course, but then as soon as they lose the ball, (usually a tackle/clearence in the middle) they press in the opponents half & win it back.

Isn't that exactly what the rags did to us when Michael Owen scored the winner at OT 2 seasons ago ?

When they have been at their best, they too have pressed teams back into their own third of the pitch & kept taking the ball from them then attacking. What law says they then have to play a lot of short passes through the middle ? There's surely no reason why a team can't switch their method of attack & start attacking the 6 yard box from wide instead.

Just because they use width doesn't mean the rest of the game has to change, you could still pass & move like Barca but cross like the rags do. Liverpool at their best, were doing that 30 years ago.

[brite blu sky]

This is right. and to echo Ted's comment that it isn't about two styles of football. It shouldn't be even a plan A and plan B, it is about combining the best approaches.. ones that work. There may well be a technical problem with that, insomuch as shorter players with a low centre of gravity have better weight movement and poise. In other words there are less tall very good ball players. There must be some though and they must be found.

I can only add that it is not just combining two approaches iether, it is about having the ability as a team to have as many very effective strategies. The more City have to use the more oppositions have to try and plan for, suss out, and cope with. Yaya's surges are another good example.

The point that Mancio makes about confusion trying to learn more than just the passing game is a good one imo and should not be underestimated. Lets face it one of the most highly lauded English managers at Spurs near as much just tells his players to go out and do their stuff. Apparently players like this uncomplicated method. I don't know how long it takes to train first class footballers to be able to play like barca, but I can guess it would be quite some time.
I've seen Mancini watching EDS players and then stopping them and asking them why they shape up all blustery when they receive the ball, then telling them not to do that and just practice being very calm. That is about as basic as it gets, but imo it highlights what managers, especially perhaps in England are up against. So Mancio's point is worth taking on board in as much as Bob has to get the team to be able to play possession football in their sleep. After each summer training they have come out 10 times better, so doing that during the season is clearly more difficult to do. So it may well be a case of one step at a time.

I have always been convinced that Mancini was not brought to City just to try and copy barca. In coming to the Prem Mancini cannot have had a plan to just install his ways on the english game, he must have seen both the opportunity and the challenge to learn new things.

If a team is to be developed that has a style of it own that somehow takes the best of the current approaches and adds something to that, in effect to be better than barca, Real, Bayern, the rags, Milan etc etc, then basically it will have to be in many ways an experiment,as it will have to be something new. At least in this generation or era of football.

I would argue something else that backs up Mancio's point. There is a distinct lack of individualism in City's current play. Yaya and Balo aside there are very very few attempts to beat people and go for it. Is that another casualty of getting the passing game to such a level it is second nature ? I think it is.

There is a balance that will have to be struck and i am 100% sure that Bob knows this, when the time is right the adherance to learning that game will have to be slackened off and the other aspects of individual and team creativity will have to be allowed back in and encouraged.

The way that Mancini completely re-organised the defence when he arrived and then slowly solidified the whole team from the back, through the midfield for a whole season and finally to the front, tells me that he both has a plan and is very sure and determined to install it whatever it takes. That is also why he has no time for players who cannot see the plan and learn it. But I repeat Mancini cannot be about trying to copy barca, so there is more to come.