The English Premiership. A league in decline.

[halnone]

La Liga. A league in decline.

[Socrates]

usual mistyping, sorry mate

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol[/url]

No, was a serious question, i still dont know who he is, maybe a couple of yrs before my time?

You'd be surprised by the loads of things i still dont know without having a hair flowing anymore... :-)

imho, Ruud Krol had been the best sweeper/CB of the modern era, despite taking part to the glorious 1974 WC campaign mainly lined as LB into the Rinus Michel's "Total Football" machine. an extremely intelligent defender of rare ability at positioning, great in the air, featured with very well educated feet that enhanced his playing versatility enabling him to play also as a decent DM.
I suppose a comparison to our Vinnie isn't unfair once assumed that our skipper still has margins for improvement.
I am definitely biased toward him as well as any member of that amazingly terrific Orange/Ajax side, tho. I was 11 then, and knowing only the italian catenaccio or the classic 4-4-2 english styles, watching that breathtaking new footy had been like switching from candles to electric lighting.

I completely fell in love with the '74 Dutch side, Krol, Cruyff, Neeskens, Johnny Rep...

[Ted Hughes]

usual mistyping, sorry mate

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol[/url]

No, was a serious question, i still dont know who he is, maybe a couple of yrs before my time?

You'd be surprised by the loads of things i still dont know without having a hair flowing anymore... :-)

imho, Ruud Krol had been the best sweeper/CB of the modern era, despite taking part to the glorious 1974 WC campaign mainly lined as LB into the Rinus Michel's "Total Football" machine. an extremely intelligent defender of rare ability at positioning, great in the air, featured with very well educated feet that enhanced his playing versatility enabling him to play also as a decent DM.
I suppose a comparison to our Vinnie isn't unfair once assumed that our skipper still has margins for improvement.
I am definitely biased toward him as well as any member of that amazingly terrific Orange/Ajax side, tho. I was 11 then, and knowing only the italian catenaccio or the classic 4-4-2 english styles, watching that breathtaking new footy had been like switching from candles to electric lighting.

I completely fell in love with the '74 Dutch side, Krol, Cruyff, Neeskens, Johnny Rep...

When people say it's impossible to play like Barca but still do crosses; they were doing it in 1974.

[Nigels Tackle]

usual mistyping, sorry mate

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol[/url]

No, was a serious question, i still dont know who he is, maybe a couple of yrs before my time?

You'd be surprised by the loads of things i still dont know without having a hair flowing anymore... :-)

imho, Ruud Krol had been the best sweeper/CB of the modern era, despite taking part to the glorious 1974 WC campaign mainly lined as LB into the Rinus Michel's "Total Football" machine. an extremely intelligent defender of rare ability at positioning, great in the air, featured with very well educated feet that enhanced his playing versatility enabling him to play also as a decent DM.
I suppose a comparison to our Vinnie isn't unfair once assumed that our skipper still has margins for improvement.
I am definitely biased toward him as well as any member of that amazingly terrific Orange/Ajax side, tho. I was 11 then, and knowing only the italian catenaccio or the classic 4-4-2 english styles, watching that breathtaking new footy had been like switching from candles to electric lighting.

I completely fell in love with the '74 Dutch side, Krol, Cruyff, Neeskens, Johnny Rep...

When people say it's impossible to play like Barca but still do crosses; they were doing it in 1974.

that brilliant side that won....... nothing.

[Swales4ever]

usual mistyping, sorry mate

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Krol[/url]

No, was a serious question, i still dont know who he is, maybe a couple of yrs before my time?

You'd be surprised by the loads of things i still dont know without having a hair flowing anymore... :-)

imho, Ruud Krol had been the best sweeper/CB of the modern era, despite taking part to the glorious 1974 WC campaign mainly lined as LB into the Rinus Michel's "Total Football" machine. an extremely intelligent defender of rare ability at positioning, great in the air, featured with very well educated feet that enhanced his playing versatility enabling him to play also as a decent DM.
I suppose a comparison to our Vinnie isn't unfair once assumed that our skipper still has margins for improvement.
I am definitely biased toward him as well as any member of that amazingly terrific Orange/Ajax side, tho. I was 11 then, and knowing only the italian catenaccio or the classic 4-4-2 english styles, watching that breathtaking new footy had been like switching from candles to electric lighting.

I completely fell in love with the '74 Dutch side, Krol, Cruyff, Neeskens, Johnny Rep...

When people say it's impossible to play like Barca but still do crosses; they were doing it in 1974.

ha, ha. It seems You have hitted the center of the dart board (bull's eye if memory serves me well), there.

tbf, never said it's not useful, just worried about the impact of having too many irons in the fire.
as noted by BBS elsewhere, perhaps that will be the framework that shall come up from the next summer camp.

[Alioune DVToure]

I have to say our performances in the Champions League compared to those in the Premiership really have been night and day. Of course Rome was not built in a day but we have Champions League winners in our side not to mention a manager and several players with previous CL experience.

One small crumb of comfort for us is the comparative struggles of our fellow domestic club sides. United have a shockingly poor group but will likely finish second and have failed to beat Benfica over two games and shipped in an amazing three goals at home to a Swiss side. Chelsea also are struggling and face a do or die tie against Valencia and on current form I would put my house on them joining us in the Europa league.

The Europa league tells a similar story with only Stoke really looking like they will make it through.

Gone are the days when three English clubs looked a good bet for the Semi’s and all four were expected to get to the quarter finals minimum. From a neutrals point of view the group stages of the CL are normally incredibly predictable.

I put the English side’s slump in Europe down to two things, nations like Italy have awoken from their own slump and German football is rapidly improving which I do not think any real football fan has any qualms with. The other explanation is the down turn in quality in the Premiership. Ridiculous hockey like score lines have become common and out with the top eight teams there are very few decent sides that would cope in the Spanish or Italian league. We have beaten the likes of Blackburn, Wolves, Newcastle without even having to get out of second gear. We can play terribly at QPR and still win. Long gone is the myth that every team can take points off each other in the Premiership. Napoli are a decent Italian side but not one of the top guns but have shown us up on two separate occasions. Bayern are the real deal and cleaned the floor with us.

So is our poor form in the Champions League down to playing in a league that offers us very few competitive games?

Overseas posters who are not subjected to 'the greatest league in the world' propaganda machine are especially welcome.

Now what do you reckon? Most unpredictable PL campaign ever and all four English teams through (I think).

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

Good bumpage.

[Alioune DVToure]

Good bumpage.

Ta.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

I think Arsenal can still get knocked out. Though Arsenal would have to be beaten by better than the 2-0 they beat Napoli by, (so 3 clear goals). Looks like Chelsea are through regardless.

I do think the league v league thing is quite interesting, without banging on about 'decline' too much. It's pretty obvious that this kind of stuff happens in cycles and isn't really any indication of an entire league's strengths.

Germany, last season's hipsters choice, have 2/4 teams through but maybe Dortmund and probably Schalke could go tomorrow. On top of this Leverkusen are second in the league and getting spanked by a midtable Prem side. I'd like to see the FA Commission members explain some of these points when last season they were claiming that the German Blueprint was the lead to follow, especially as the blueprint was Spanish a year before.

Spain are the only 'top' league to have a team definitely out so far, though the 3/4 though *should* all finish top of their groups. I get the feeling City will draw a Spanish side, really didn't think a season ago I'd be saying I hope it's Barcelona.

Italy have all three teams teetering. Think Juve and Milan will go through but it's not certain.

I suppose it really depends on how you want to compare on league to another. Giving a set group cut-off point seems a little finite. There are so many different variables that it's almost impossible to draw conclusions whenever and however you decide you're going to measure.

In short: It's 10% Welsh now anyway.

[Ted Hughes]

Our league is much harder to play in, than to play against imo.

It's a muggers' alley.

No matter how good you are, if our lot get to watch you every week close up, they find a way to nick points off you.

If our top sides all played pure Champions Lg style football, they wouldn't win our league, you need something else as well, whareas in Spain, Germany etc, the two styles are pretty much the same.

In our league, people would watch Bayern lose to us tonight & formulate a whole plan to stifle them, expose one weakness to try & pinch something. They would probably flatten Ribery, defend like fuck elsewhere, & target Boateng & that other turd.

Whilst they were doing that, next week's opponent would be avidly watching to see which bits of the plan worked & how they could get it right when their turn came if this attempt failed.

You only have to look as far as Chelsea knocking both Barca & Bayern out by totally not bothering to even try to play football, just purely to stop them playing & scrape any kind of win. That's how many of our opponents play v us & we have to deal with it regularly.

Hamburg at Bayern this weekend, will most likely just play like Hamburg.

[DoomMerchant]

Our league is much harder to play in, than to play against imo.

It's a muggers' alley.

No matter how good you are, if our lot get to watch you every week close up, they find a way to nick points off you.

If our top sides all played pure Champions Lg style football, they wouldn't win our league, you need something else as well, whareas in Spain, Germany etc, the two styles are pretty much the same.

In our league, people would watch Bayern lose to us tonight & formulate a whole plan to stifle them, expose one weakness to try & pinch something. They would probably flatten Ribery, defend like fuck elsewhere, & target Boateng & that other turd.

Whilst they were doing that, next week's opponent would be avidly watching to see which bits of the plan worked & how they could get it right when their turn came if this attempt failed.

You only have to look as far as Chelsea knocking both Barca & Bayern out by totally not bothering to even try to play football, just purely to stop them playing & scrape any kind of win. That's how many of our opponents play v us & we have to deal with it regularly.

Hamburg at Bayern this weekend, will most likely just play like Hamburg.

And to further this point, The Championship is without a doubt in my opinion the hardest league in the world to win and/or get promoted from. You've got to have the ability to cope with so many different kinds of bullshit, AND you have to be able to play some actual fucking football as well. Some of these CL sides would wilt under the strain of a 46 match battering ram that is The Championship.

[Peter Doherty (AGAIG)]

As I understand it, if the southern teams win tomorrow it'll be the best performance by the English teams since four teams were allowed to qualify. Some decline.

[Hutch's Shoulder]

There are many points that can be made about the relative strengths of the top European leagues, on and off the field, and, as one of the posts above says, the comparison changes every year. A couple of things that strike me though:

1. Part of the ‘decline’ is the result of over-hyping the PL in the first place. It is an excellent league, but the ‘best league in the world’ tag is just a Sky sales pitch and sets it up for the backlash when things don’t go well. It is not always the best, but it is consistently one of the top four European leagues. Sometimes top, sometimes 2,3 or probably last year 4th. But ‘consistently one of the top four European leagues’ isn’t so good as a sound-bite, so we get the best in the world hype. The others up there with us regularly being Spain, Italy and Germany. Every now and again another league may have a good run, but these four are the regulars, as per CL rankings.

2. The league being the best does not equate to the top teams in the league also being the best. The league may be competitive internally, and therefore good to watch, but the top two in the PL may not at any one time be as good as the top two in, say, Spain. On the other hand, team 6 and 7 in the PL might be miles ahead of 6 and 7 in Spain. Using the CL performance of 4 teas as a means of comparing the whole of the top flight in each country is therefore misleading.

3. Even when it is the best in a particular season, that does not mean it is the best in every aspect of the game. Taken over a number of years, PL tends to be strong in strikers, wide men and keepers (most not English), but less good in creative midfielders and defence (not rubbish, just not as good as Spain or Italy respectively) and tactical innovation. I think this is just the way our clubs like to spend their money to satisfy their audiences (TV and fans) and also reflects the tactics in the PL.

There are lots of other aspects we could consider, and that is only about basic on-the-field stuff, let alone youth policy, ownership structures, finance etc. The bottom line is that there is no objective way of comparing the whole status of the leagues across countries over time, so it degenerates from an interesting debate into an opportunity for Greg Dyke, Sky or whoever to push their own agendas using selective evidence and shout ‘I told you so’.