Can Mark Hughes take us into the Champions League?

[Original Dub]

Oh Alex, you DON'T get it do you?

thanks for patronising me.

The new rules will have be based on the accounts for the previous year

As you say they are new, so you may or may not be right about what they will be based on. If they are based on accounts from a previous year that may mean that a new or first time qualifier could be barred in spite of having a guarantee of future earnings (by definition in the period of the competition). That really would be cartel-like unfairness. Much more likely they'll follow the premier League's lead and take into account future income.

which will need to have Champions League money in them if we are to pass the audit and keep our UEFA eligibility.

OR the promise of it?

And are you sure you're not mixing up the future rules with existing UEFA Club Licensing Regulations which provides for a Licence as a prerequisite of entering the competitions, but does not have the "future rules" as criteria.
The new rules have been flagged as being introduced over three years (starting 20012/13) and that they would oblige clubs (over a certain unspecified turnover) to "balance their books" (presumably show a profit) over another unspecified "period of time".
So that would not necessarily preclude a team who lose money entering the competition in 2012 would it?

For 2012/13 Champions League, by necessity of determining the qualifying teams and draws in the summer, that will mean the accounts to May 2011. For the 2010/11 season. NEXT season. That means we HAVE to qualify this season or the gate could already be closed when we do...

A team qualifying for Europe through its league position in May 2012 that's the season after the season after this season (let's call them City) will qualify for the 2012/13 tournament. This will be the first time any new rules will be in place and the first of a number of years in which the club will have to show a trend towards compliance rather than immediate, retrospective compliance with any financial restrictions which may be included.
They will (under existing Premier League reulations) have provided independently audited Accounts on 1st March of that year (presumably covering an earlier period than that to 1st March) as well as "future financial information" (which would presumably include their CL income for the upcoming competition?)
So it's just possible that even though I don't get it, your statement "we have to qualify this season" is a bit hasty and possibly even scare mungering.

They have clearly stated that the aim will be to stop clubs doing what we are doing i.e. spending capital rather than income. To do that they will have to preclude future income or it would be meaningless. The existing UEFA Licensing Regulations is what I assume they will use as a basis for what they do. They will simply expand that scheme. I am not scaremongering just fighting
against smugness and compacency from people who should know better.

Aye the real powers that be don't want any arabs near the game. Heaven forbid the richest people on the planet would want to put vast sums of money into the game...

If Platini drives this forward, he'll be gone very soon. In the worst case scenario if they introduce some form of limitation on spending from the owner rather than the capital, by the time they do we will be where we want to be.

One of us is going to look like a fucking eejit in a couple of years. It kind of reminds me of the millenium bug.... lets hope for all our sakes you're the fucking eejit.

[Socrates]

Oh Alex, you DON'T get it do you?

thanks for patronising me.

The new rules will have be based on the accounts for the previous year

As you say they are new, so you may or may not be right about what they will be based on. If they are based on accounts from a previous year that may mean that a new or first time qualifier could be barred in spite of having a guarantee of future earnings (by definition in the period of the competition). That really would be cartel-like unfairness. Much more likely they'll follow the premier League's lead and take into account future income.

which will need to have Champions League money in them if we are to pass the audit and keep our UEFA eligibility.

OR the promise of it?

And are you sure you're not mixing up the future rules with existing UEFA Club Licensing Regulations which provides for a Licence as a prerequisite of entering the competitions, but does not have the "future rules" as criteria.
The new rules have been flagged as being introduced over three years (starting 20012/13) and that they would oblige clubs (over a certain unspecified turnover) to "balance their books" (presumably show a profit) over another unspecified "period of time".
So that would not necessarily preclude a team who lose money entering the competition in 2012 would it?

For 2012/13 Champions League, by necessity of determining the qualifying teams and draws in the summer, that will mean the accounts to May 2011. For the 2010/11 season. NEXT season. That means we HAVE to qualify this season or the gate could already be closed when we do...

A team qualifying for Europe through its league position in May 2012 that's the season after the season after this season (let's call them City) will qualify for the 2012/13 tournament. This will be the first time any new rules will be in place and the first of a number of years in which the club will have to show a trend towards compliance rather than immediate, retrospective compliance with any financial restrictions which may be included.
They will (under existing Premier League reulations) have provided independently audited Accounts on 1st March of that year (presumably covering an earlier period than that to 1st March) as well as "future financial information" (which would presumably include their CL income for the upcoming competition?)
So it's just possible that even though I don't get it, your statement "we have to qualify this season" is a bit hasty and possibly even scare mungering.

They have clearly stated that the aim will be to stop clubs doing what we are doing i.e. spending capital rather than income. To do that they will have to preclude future income or it would be meaningless. The existing UEFA Licensing Regulations is what I assume they will use as a basis for what they do. They will simply expand that scheme. I am not scaremongering just fighting
against smugness and compacency from people who should know better.

Aye the real powers that be don't want any arabs near the game. Heaven forbid the richest people on the planet would want to put vast sums of money into the game...

If Platini drives this forward, he'll be gone very soon. In the worst case scenario if they introduce some form of limitation on spending from the owner rather than the capital, by the time they do we will be where we want to be.

One of us is going to look like a fucking eejit in a couple of years. It kind of reminds me of the millenium bug.... lets hope for all our sakes you're the fucking eejit.

The millenium bug wasn't a problem because it was foreseen and action was taken to avoid it! Who exactly are these forces of light who will get rid of Platini when he will seen to be the defender of those with entrenched vested interests? If he has the support of the English big 4 and other major European clubs, who exactly will make him disappear?

[Original Dub]

Oh Alex, you DON'T get it do you?

thanks for patronising me.

The new rules will have be based on the accounts for the previous year

As you say they are new, so you may or may not be right about what they will be based on. If they are based on accounts from a previous year that may mean that a new or first time qualifier could be barred in spite of having a guarantee of future earnings (by definition in the period of the competition). That really would be cartel-like unfairness. Much more likely they'll follow the premier League's lead and take into account future income.

which will need to have Champions League money in them if we are to pass the audit and keep our UEFA eligibility.

OR the promise of it?

And are you sure you're not mixing up the future rules with existing UEFA Club Licensing Regulations which provides for a Licence as a prerequisite of entering the competitions, but does not have the "future rules" as criteria.
The new rules have been flagged as being introduced over three years (starting 20012/13) and that they would oblige clubs (over a certain unspecified turnover) to "balance their books" (presumably show a profit) over another unspecified "period of time".
So that would not necessarily preclude a team who lose money entering the competition in 2012 would it?

For 2012/13 Champions League, by necessity of determining the qualifying teams and draws in the summer, that will mean the accounts to May 2011. For the 2010/11 season. NEXT season. That means we HAVE to qualify this season or the gate could already be closed when we do...

A team qualifying for Europe through its league position in May 2012 that's the season after the season after this season (let's call them City) will qualify for the 2012/13 tournament. This will be the first time any new rules will be in place and the first of a number of years in which the club will have to show a trend towards compliance rather than immediate, retrospective compliance with any financial restrictions which may be included.
They will (under existing Premier League reulations) have provided independently audited Accounts on 1st March of that year (presumably covering an earlier period than that to 1st March) as well as "future financial information" (which would presumably include their CL income for the upcoming competition?)
So it's just possible that even though I don't get it, your statement "we have to qualify this season" is a bit hasty and possibly even scare mungering.

They have clearly stated that the aim will be to stop clubs doing what we are doing i.e. spending capital rather than income. To do that they will have to preclude future income or it would be meaningless. The existing UEFA Licensing Regulations is what I assume they will use as a basis for what they do. They will simply expand that scheme. I am not scaremongering just fighting
against smugness and compacency from people who should know better.

Aye the real powers that be don't want any arabs near the game. Heaven forbid the richest people on the planet would want to put vast sums of money into the game...

If Platini drives this forward, he'll be gone very soon. In the worst case scenario if they introduce some form of limitation on spending from the owner rather than the capital, by the time they do we will be where we want to be.

One of us is going to look like a fucking eejit in a couple of years. It kind of reminds me of the millenium bug.... lets hope for all our sakes you're the fucking eejit.

The millenium bug wasn't a problem because it was foreseen and action was taken to avoid it! Who exactly are these forces of light who will get rid of Platini when he will seen to be the defender of those with entrenched vested interests? If he has the support of the English big 4 and other major European clubs, who exactly will make him disappear?

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

[Socrates]

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

Really? Because my viewpoint would be that hopefully we will make the top 4 and get into the Champions League so we will never find out who was right and who was wrong. But that's just me...

[Mark Garrett]

Yes. I'm 100% supportive of Hughes.

This season i'm looking for a top 6 and i'm confident we will achieve that. 4th place is a possibility and would be an unbelievable achievement if we did that this season.

We may not get into the Champions League this season, but that doesn't bother me. Given the choice of finishing 4th and winning nothing this season or finishing top 6 and winning a trophy, i'd take the latter any day.

Hughes has bought well for the most part and it is a case of moulding the side as a unit, which regardless of who the players are, will take time and signing another half a dozen players is not the answer

[Original Dub]

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

Really? Because my viewpoint would be that hopefully we will make the top 4 and get into the Champions League so we will never find out who was right and who was wrong. But that's just me...

No, I'll take fourth this season.

HOWEVER, if we don't make fourth I still think we'll continue to progress to a top side.

You'll think we're doomed. Doomed I tells ya.

[Socrates]

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

Really? Because my viewpoint would be that hopefully we will make the top 4 and get into the Champions League so we will never find out who was right and who was wrong. But that's just me...

No, I'll take fourth this season.

HOWEVER, if we don't make fourth I still think we'll continue to progress to a top side.

You'll think we're doomed. Doomed I tells ya.

No, I'll just be very worried that we'll have it all snatched away from us at the last minute. You don't think the vested interests have the power. I do. That's the difference.

[mcfc1632]

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

Really? Because my viewpoint would be that hopefully we will make the top 4 and get into the Champions League so we will never find out who was right and who was wrong. But that's just me...

No, I'll take fourth this season.

HOWEVER, if we don't make fourth I still think we'll continue to progress to a top side.

You'll think we're doomed. Doomed I tells ya.

No, I'll just be very worried that we'll have it all snatched away from us at the last minute. You don't think the vested interests have the power. I do. That's the difference.

Dub - you said earlier.... "Aye the real powers that be don't want any arabs near the game. Heaven forbid the richest people on the planet would want to put vast sums of money into the game..."

For me whilst I know that was a joke - you are not far off just at the moment - you seem to think that Platini is running things - he is only running scared - the mood music is that the old G14 want guaranteed revenue - their business models depend on it - imagine the interest rate that will be facing any refinancing of scouse1 if they cannot offer Cl revenues and projected year on year repeat

It is that old brigade that will set the agenda and my reading of things is:

1/ RM, Chelsea, Scum, Liverpool and others have come out stating the need for changes of format to secure guaranteed revenue between each other

2/ Quickly followed by Platini with these 'ideas' - specifically mentioning a) the need to stop Sheik type events and b) clubs that have the big debts are no problem...

3/ I think that Platini has been given some time to sort it before it is sorted by them - Abramovich whilst a new member is onside because he does not want to pump more money in and Platini was clear that he has agreed this with him

[Socrates]

Well articulated 1632, thanks for that.

[Original Dub]

I think we both know that the threat of the millenium bug was used for scare mongering by excitable folk and the reality differed greatly.

There are far more powerful forces in football than Platini and the top four clubs in the big leagues. Football is growing as we speak and there is a new team that everyone's talking about... the more teams like that the more money in football. You think the premier league will be 'protected' from having the richest people in the world from making another club huge?

Like I said, there was another thread on this not so long ago and I know you love talking about it, but the fact reamins that one of us will look like the a fucking eejit in a couple of years.... either the guy who said we HAVE to make champion's league this season or we will never be a top club... or the guy who said chill the fuck out.

Can't wait for the outcome!

Really? Because my viewpoint would be that hopefully we will make the top 4 and get into the Champions League so we will never find out who was right and who was wrong. But that's just me...

No, I'll take fourth this season.

HOWEVER, if we don't make fourth I still think we'll continue to progress to a top side.

You'll think we're doomed. Doomed I tells ya.

No, I'll just be very worried that we'll have it all snatched away from us at the last minute. You don't think the vested interests have the power. I do. That's the difference.

Dub - you said earlier.... "Aye the real powers that be don't want any arabs near the game. Heaven forbid the richest people on the planet would want to put vast sums of money into the game..."

For me whilst I know that was a joke - you are not far off just at the moment - you seem to think that Platini is running things - he is only running scared - the mood music is that the old G14 want guaranteed revenue - their business models depend on it - imagine the interest rate that will be facing any refinancing of scouse1 if they cannot offer Cl revenues and projected year on year repeat

It is that old brigade that will set the agenda and my reading of things is:

1/ RM, Chelsea, Scum, Liverpool and others have come out stating the need for changes of format to secure guaranteed revenue between each other

2/ Quickly followed by Platini with these 'ideas' - specifically mentioning a) the need to stop Sheik type events and b) clubs that have the big debts are no problem...

3/ I think that Platini has been given some time to sort it before it is sorted by them - Abramovich whilst a new member is onside because he does not want to pump more money in and Platini was clear that he has agreed this with him

Right so, more spending in next two windows and we'll be in champs league in no time.... or is this going to kick in any day now and with immediate effect?

[Socrates]

Right so, more spending in next two windows and we'll be in champs league in no time.... or is this going to kick in any day now and with immediate effect?

We don't know the details other than the plan being to introduce the regulations for the 2012/13 UEFA competitions - but surely we have to plan for the worst case scenario which that could entail? If stopping the likes of us is the plan then they will, after all, aim for that worst case scenario! My argument is that if they take the logical step of doing this by extending the existing UEFA licensing regulations, then entry to the 2012/13 Champions League will depend on the previous year's accounts passing their new audit requirements. The previous year as at the qualification date in May 2012 will actually be the accounts to May 2011. That means we could be refused a license to enter the 2012/13 ECL on the basis of our spending being greater than our income in the 2010/11 season! Hence my desire to see us have ECL income in the 2010/11 season so that our income for that set of accounts is as high as possible and that means we should pull out all the stops to see we finish 4th this season. Logic says that the summer spending spree was our owner's response to the new urgency?

[Alex Sapphire]

We don't know the details other than the plan being to introduce the regulations for the 2012/13 UEFA competitions - but surely we have to plan for the worst case scenario which that could entail? If stopping the likes of us is the plan then they will, after all, aim for that worst case scenario! My argument is that if they take the logical step of doing this by extending the existing UEFA licensing regulations, then entry to the 2012/13 Champions League will depend on the previous year's accounts passing their new audit requirements. The previous year as at the qualification date in May 2012 will actually be the accounts to May 2011. That means we could be refused a license to enter the 2012/13 ECL on the basis of our spending being greater than our income in the 2010/11 season! Hence my desire to see us have ECL income in the 2010/11 season so that our income for that set of accounts is as high as possible and that means we should pull out all the stops to see we finish 4th this season. Logic says that the summer spending spree was our owner's response to the new urgency?

UEFA has made several statements about what it's objectives are. "Stopping the likes of City" isn't anywhere on the list, but the following do stand out as typifying their objectives:

Guidance will be given on salaries and transfer spending,

Risk: they cap individual or squad salaries, although I guess they say guidance as they are worried about litigation. A starting point on individual salaries will necessarily be where we are now and as we are broadly in line with RM, Barce, Scum, Chelsea (at the top end) and they will not be barred, then we can ride in their slipstream. As a squad I guess we still have some room for manoeuvre

Action: as you say, Socca, we've preempted the transfer part of this by doing a lot of spending early. It is also just possible (or is it me) that a strategy could be to acquire Gallactico's not for our team (long term) but to trade in future and manage the balance of in and outgoing transfer spend.

indicators provided on the sustainability of levels of debt,

Risk: we accrue more debt than Chelsea (750mill?) Scum (800mill?) or Arse (300m?) and/or cannot manage the interest payments on that debt. Action: the owners could write off the debt in the next three years if they haven't already

clubs will be obliged to honour their commitments at all times.

this is about things like meeting payment obligations to other clubs and paying players (like Pompey didnt). I guess?

an obligation for clubs whose turnover is over a certain threshold, over a period of time, to balance their books or break even.

Risk: we can't report a profit over "the period of time" they decide upon (which by definition is not immediate so not a prerequisite to qualification). But then Chelsea's stated aim was to break even and they are still reporting a loss in spite of CL money. BTW this rule (if applied rigorously) would exclude all recent winners and most recent Quarterfinalists in the competition, so I imagine the "period of time" will be set to help the "Cartel"

Action:
Reduce interest on debt payments (already done?)

grow income from all sources:
sponsorship,

but also Merchandise, TV,

Cups:with potential pots of FAC: 5m, CCC 2.5m, CL 30m

and progress in CL is absolutely vital over time. But failure to qualify this year is neither a target nor the only way we will ever qualify in future.

Leagues: action finish higher! at half a mill or more per position


long-term investment (youth development and upgrading of sporting facilities)

And we all know what a good job we're doing building a worldwide Youth set up and improving facilities.

In short I think our owners and management team (business and football) are ahead of you Jon and are doing a fantastic job.

[Socrates]

In short I think our owners and management team (business and football) are ahead of you Jon and are doing a fantastic job.

Interesting to look back at this as this thread as it was part of the quality debate aside from the cyberfisticuffs. You were half right Alex. A few weeks later they removed the football management because they (the business managers) were indeed on top of it, thank goodness!
My worst fears on the immediate impact of FFP proved to be wrong but the owners weren't sure either, why else would they have made finishing 4th such a priority? Indeed, if we had got 4th that year we would be less worried about FFP now. We may well be ok but it's going to be by the skin of our teeth. My overall supposed "paranoia" was right though. Platini and others really are out to get us...

[Alex Sapphire]

In short I think our owners and management team (business and football) are ahead of you Jon and are doing a fantastic job.

Interesting to look back at this as this thread as it was part of the quality debate aside from the cyberfisticuffs. You were half right Alex. A few weeks later they removed the football management because they (the business managers) were indeed on top of it, thank goodness!
My worst fears on the immediate impact of FFP proved to be wrong but the owners weren't sure either, why else would they have made finishing 4th such a priority? Indeed, if we had got 4th that year we would be less worried about FFP now. We may well be ok but it's going to be by the skin of our teeth. My overall supposed "paranoia" was right though. Platini and others really are out to get us...

Both of us half right? I'll settle for that

[Socrates]

In short I think our owners and management team (business and football) are ahead of you Jon and are doing a fantastic job.

Interesting to look back at this as this thread as it was part of the quality debate aside from the cyberfisticuffs. You were half right Alex. A few weeks later they removed the football management because they (the business managers) were indeed on top of it, thank goodness!
My worst fears on the immediate impact of FFP proved to be wrong but the owners weren't sure either, why else would they have made finishing 4th such a priority? Indeed, if we had got 4th that year we would be less worried about FFP now. We may well be ok but it's going to be by the skin of our teeth. My overall supposed "paranoia" was right though. Platini and others really are out to get us...

Both of us half right? I'll settle for that

I'd just settle for clearer air.

[john68]

Sometime ago, there was a report that City's Etihad Campus sponsorship deal was to be called in by UeFA to see if it met the fair market value standards.
Since that earlier report, nothing!

Has anyone any more up to date info on this?

[DoomMerchant]

Back on topic...

No, i don't think Hughes can take us into the Champions League. Hope i'm wrong, but i just don't see him getting it done.

I just think it will be especially challenging....

specifically if he does not in fact own a fucking TIME MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Back on topic...

No, i don't think Hughes can take us into the Champions League. Hope i'm wrong, but i just don't see him getting it done.

I just think it will be especially challenging....

specifically if he does not in fact own a fucking TIME MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure Christopher Eccleston will loan TARDIS to him. Them both being rags and all that.

[DoomMerchant]

Back on topic...

No, i don't think Hughes can take us into the Champions League. Hope i'm wrong, but i just don't see him getting it done.

I just think it will be especially challenging....

specifically if he does not in fact own a fucking TIME MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure Christopher Eccleston will loan TARDIS to him. Them both being rags and all that.

he's such a cheating rag fuckhole. i knew it would come down to this.

Now what happens? if he succeeds do we have to give the last two trophies back and let Hughes see what kind of job he would have done? If they let Rumminigge and the FA decide you can bet we'll be back to trophyless, rags hoist their banner again and Kun Aguero will be wiped from our memories by Mark Ruffalo and crew like in Eternal Sunshine.

Jesus...now i know why Patrick's drinking. We just never know when we can really rely on things with City. We even win the goddam trophies and accolades and now they're trying to literally rewrite history to steal them from us?

this gets fucking tricky.

also, Robyn...
[youtube]kuFJmf2DIfM[/youtube]

[Swales4ever]

It seems there will be plenty of threads' resurrections till Charity Shield.