BBC Panorama Documentary on Poland and Ukraine

[Chinners]

It doesn't make her sound like a 'massive bigot' at all.

Agreed.

Out of order from the resident lefty, self righteous one.

I should add, BIB has got previous for this. I'm pretty sure he accused Chinners and PBL of racism less than two weeks ago.

No, I accused them of bandwaggoning a thread with a bully-boy attitude. I understand it's quite a subtle difference for someone with an axe to grind.

I've absolutely no axe to grind, on the contrary. I generally find you someone who is well worth reading.

However, you are quick to attack people and play the racist/bigotry card if they have a different stance from you on issues of this nature. You may not have come out an actually called chinners and PBL racists, perhaps not as bluntly as your accusation against SOF, but that was certainly the inference.

I don't recall BiB doing that, maybe I misread something as a joke when it wasn't, i'd be pissed off if he did mean it mind! ... still, racism sucks whoever does it

[BlueinBosnia]

As I said in the post above, I misread/misinterpreted, and apologise to her.

So using your analogy of using public transport/learning to drive, because the EDL are rampant in said towns, it might not be safe to go to a football game anywhere in England? Nonsense.

These are right-wing extremists from low-income families in deprived areas, and are only motivated by 'crowd mentality'. Unless something is organised by the extreme right (which is an incredibly small minority in Poland- they have a lower proportion voting for the far right than we do for BNP), they'll just stay at home, shouting at the foreigners they see on TV. I must stress, I'm speaking about Poland here. Ukraine is a different kettle of fish.

If someone made a documentary about the EDL's activity in Britain, and it aired on, say, a Swedish TV channel, edited to look like it was a problem rife in football everywhere in the country, I'm sure a large number on here would be equally as indignant as One Man Army.

So you are saying its not a problem?

No. What I'm saying is:

There is (from a British, and my, point of view) a problem in both Poland and the Ukraine. Then again, there is probably still a problem in Britain from the point of view of a number of other nations.

Whether Poland thinks it has a problem or not is up to them. We don't control Poland, Ukraine or UEFA.

There are probably only 7 or 8 states that actually care about racism within UEFA. Should UEFA's policies be dictated by their social situations? And to what level? Although I think it's relevant for discussion on a football forum, I don't think anyone has the answer.

If we were to rule out candidates for hosting the European Championships due to issues with racism, which countries would be left which could host the tournament, in your opinion? Would people ever come to a consensus on it? Remember that the vast majority of UEFA members are monocultural societies, with totally different views on what may or may not constitute racism.

If there are racist incidents there, I hope they are dealt with to the full extent of the law, and if they happen in the context of a football game (ie in and around the stadium), the countries whose fans are responsible are punished. On the other hand, I equally hope that the BBC highlighting the problems with racism in Poland and Ukraine isn't some form of financially-influenced deterrent to people travelling to the tournament, or some ready-made excuse for the predicted carnage that will surround the England fans out there.

[Wonderwall]

As I said in the post above, I misread/misinterpreted, and apologise to her.

So using your analogy of using public transport/learning to drive, because the EDL are rampant in said towns, it might not be safe to go to a football game anywhere in England? Nonsense.

These are right-wing extremists from low-income families in deprived areas, and are only motivated by 'crowd mentality'. Unless something is organised by the extreme right (which is an incredibly small minority in Poland- they have a lower proportion voting for the far right than we do for BNP), they'll just stay at home, shouting at the foreigners they see on TV. I must stress, I'm speaking about Poland here. Ukraine is a different kettle of fish.

If someone made a documentary about the EDL's activity in Britain, and it aired on, say, a Swedish TV channel, edited to look like it was a problem rife in football everywhere in the country, I'm sure a large number on here would be equally as indignant as One Man Army.

So you are saying its not a problem?

No. What I'm saying is:

There is (from a British, and my, point of view) a problem in both Poland and the Ukraine. Then again, there is probably still a problem in Britain from the point of view of a number of other nations.

Whether Poland thinks it has a problem or not is up to them. We don't control Poland, Ukraine or UEFA.

There are probably only 7 or 8 states that actually care about racism within UEFA. Should UEFA's policies be dictated by their social situations? And to what level? Although I think it's relevant for discussion on a football forum, I don't think anyone has the answer.

If we were to rule out candidates for hosting the European Championships due to issues with racism, which countries would be left which could host the tournament, in your opinion? Would people ever come to a consensus on it? Remember that the vast majority of UEFA members are monocultural societies, with totally different views on what may or may not constitute racism.

If there are racist incidents there, I hope they are dealt with to the full extent of the law, and if they happen in the context of a football game (ie in and around the stadium), the countries whose fans are responsible are punished. On the other hand, I equally hope that the BBC highlighting the problems with racism in Poland and Ukraine isn't some form of financially-influenced deterrent to people travelling to the tournament, or some ready-made excuse for the predicted carnage that will surround the England fans out there.

UEFA have actively backed the kick Racism Out Of Football campaign since it became a body in its own right in 1997, well before the host countries for Euro 2012 were chosen. To say should policy being dictated by social culture is a throw away comment, this is about right and wrong, plain and simple. You can go down the route of "they might not know its wrong" but that would be bollox as well as if they dont know its wrong, they should not have been awarded the championship. I think we should rule out countries that are not actively looking to address issues such as racism/gay rights etc. Why should they be awarded the honour of being a host nation if they are not looking to address issues in their society that could seriously affect the competition.

I dont understand what the BBC would gain from stopping fans travelling?

[Fidel Castro]

If we were to rule out candidates for hosting the European Championships due to issues with racism, which countries would be left which could host the tournament

Good point. I'd say England, Germany, Holland and Belgium have it more or less sorted. Not sure what the fuck is going on in France anymore, last time I was over there it was very multi-cultural but everyone seems to hate each others guts and there is no integration whatsoever. Spain and Italy are horribly racist. Can't really comment on Eastern Europe, but judging by the footage I've seen on tele, they still have a massive problem.

Solution - scrap international football, it's shite anyway.
Also, let the nobhead nazi Ukrainians build a wall around their country so no dirty foreigners can get in. Eventually they'll blow up another nuclear power station and wipe out their entire nation.

[BlueinBosnia]

If we were to rule out candidates for hosting the European Championships due to issues with racism, which countries would be left which could host the tournament

Good point. I'd say England, Germany, Holland and Belgium have it more or less sorted. Not sure what the fuck is going on in France anymore, last time I was over there it was very multi-cultural but everyone seems to hate each others guts and there is no integration whatsoever. Spain and Italy are horribly racist. Can't really comment on Eastern Europe, but judging by the footage I've seen on tele, they still have a massive problem.

I've seen more racism in Belgium than in Bosnia. In fact, I'd say it's the country where I've noticed racial discrimination and profiling to be the most overt in any country I've ever visited, except Jordan. Then again, it's a multicultural society, and were there more non-whites in Bosnia, a problem may one day evolve.

[BlueinBosnia]

UEFA have actively backed the kick Racism Out Of Football campaign since it became a body in its own right in 1997, well before the host countries for Euro 2012 were chosen. To say should policy being dictated by social culture is a throw away comment, this is about right and wrong, plain and simple. You can go down the route of "they might not know its wrong" but that would be bollox as well as if they dont know its wrong, they should not have been awarded the championship. I think we should rule out countries that are not actively looking to address issues such as racism/gay rights etc. Why should they be awarded the honour of being a host nation if they are not looking to address issues in their society that could seriously affect the competition.

I dont understand what the BBC would gain from stopping fans travelling?

Like I said, it's worth discussing, but we'll never get an answer. UEFA's constitution forbids it from getting involved in the politics of its member states, and by "actively looking to address" issues, a country might only have to pay lip service to the issues by splashing a couple of hundred thousand Euros on a campaign in primary schools.

I'm not going down the 'they don't know it's wrong' route at all. However, as monocultural societies, they will treat race issues in a totally different way to Britain. Also, a lot of what was shown will have been crowd mentality. Do you really think every one of the 2,000 or so people throwing a Nazi salute is an out-and-out racist? Some were probably primarily motivated by peer pressure, and others hold no more racist views than your average Brit in the 1950s; they may have a mistrust or dislike of non-whites, but then again would never commit any violent act or verbal assault against them. A country or person can't be reprimanded for those kind of views, in my opinion, unless you start criminalizing thoughts. And then where would we be?

It would be quite a financial blow to the government to have a large number of the UK's most avid sports fans spend their summer holiday money abroad when the country is hosting its biggest sporting event of all time. In all honesty, though, I think the agenda behind this is excuse-mongering for when tragedies start to occur.

[Rag_hater]

Somebody has said that they think some England fans may get killed.If this happens will the Poles and Ukranian fans have won.

[ant london]

only Ukraine eh.....


Euro 2012: Netherlands 'subjected to racist chants while training'

Netherlands' black players were allegedly subjected to racist abuse during their open training session in the Polish city of Krakow.

Dutch captain Mark van Bommel branded the monkey chants as "a real disgrace".

Van Bommel said: "You need to open your ears. If you did hear it, and don't want to hear it, that is even worse."

Uefa officials said an incident had occurred but it was a protest about Krakow not being given any Euro 2012 matches, The Times reported.

The news comes on the opening day of the tournament, which is being co-hosted by Poland and Ukraine.

"It's the last thing Uefa needs - just a few hours before the opening game. The issue of racism has stalked the preparations for this competition and once again it has reared its head."

A BBC documentary had recently raised fears that Euro 2012 could be dogged by the issue of racism.

The Dutch players were reportedly targeted by Polish fans as they began their practice session at the Stadion Miejski.

Van Bommel responded by leading the squad to the far side of the pitch.

The abuse comes just a day after they had visited Nazi German concentration camp Auschwitz, which is nearby.

Van Bommel said: "It is a real disgrace, especially after getting back from Auschwitz, that you are confronted with this.

"We will take it up with Uefa and if it happens at a match we will talk to the referee and ask him to take us off the field."

Martin Lipton, from the Daily Mirror, is in Krakow and suggested there was a large number of Polish fans involved in the abuse.

He told BBC Radio 5 live: "As they were doing a lap on the pitch around 500 of the local fans started doing monkey chants at the black players.

"It became worse on the second lap, at which point Van Bommel took the players to the other side of the stadium. It's the only story in the Dutch press today."

The controversy has overshadowed the start of the tournament which kicks off at 17:00 BST with hosts Poland playing Greece in the opening match.

[Ted Hughes]

That, is absolutely fucking bang out of order.

[BlueinBosnia]

Uefa officials said an incident had occurred but it was a protest about Krakow not being given any Euro 2012 matches, The Times reported.

Platini's PR machine starts running...

[Chinners]

Platinist

[Wonderwall]

Platini's PR machine starts running...

Dutch have said they are not reporting it to Uefa either. Shouldn't there be a fuclin uefa reperesentation at every open training session anyway?

[Ted Hughes]

Platini's PR machine starts running...

Dutch have said they are not reporting it to Uefa either. Shouldn't there be a fuclin uefa reperesentation at every open training session anyway?

There will be, but his job is to ignore it.

[Patrick]

Interesting from Wiki...

In 2011, the Never Again Association published a report into Racism in football in the two countries due to host the 2012 European Football Championship, Poland and Ukraine. It covered an 18 month period lasting from September 2009 until March 2011, during which it noted 195 racial incidents in both Poland and Ukraine. Of these, 133 took place in Poland. Of the total 195, 105 concerned the use of fascist and far-right symbols, 36 were anti-Semitic and 20 were anti-black.[10] One of the most notable instances of racism in Polish football came in 2011 in Rzeszow, where a huge banner was unfurled declaring "Death to the hook-nosed ones", with a picture of a Jewish man with a large, crooked nose. "There were no Jews in that stadium", according to Rafal Pankowski, of Never Again, "Neither the club stewards nor the police asked the fans to take the sign down. In the case of the stewards it might be insensitivity [but] Antisemitic expression is against the law in Poland."[11] Jan Olaszek, from the Institute of National Remembrance, has described this as "antisemitism without Jews" since there are so few Jews in modern-day Poland; "People don't know history. They know stereotypes."[11]

In May 2012 a BBC Panorama programme was broadcast showing football matches in Poland before the UEFA Euro 2012 tournament. Journalist Chris Rogers recorded "a chorus of anti-Semitic chanting" and witnessed "black football players enduring monkey chants from the terraces".[12] The Polish Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, responded to the Panorama programme by saying: "Nobody who comes to Poland will be in any danger because of his race. This is not our custom, as is not pointing out similar incidents in other countries, although we know they take place. In Poland, they're a rarity."[13] Stan Collymore responded to the program on twitter, asking "Will BBC be showing London riot videos pre Olympics? Highlighting racist Twitter abuse to black Britons? Showing "Paki/BNP" on estate walls?". Aviram Baruchyan, an Israeli player who plays as a midfielder for Polonia Warsaw was interviewed and told the program that he had never been insulted for his ethnicity. His statement was cut from the show, as were the statistics provided by Polish police which showed that the number of racist incidence at matches has fallen over the last decade. Polish sports journalist Rafał Stec suggested filming a similar documentary about racism in British football, which would highlight the alleged racist comments made in 2011 and 2012 by top British footballers, as well as Arsenal fans' chants about Auschwitz directed at Tottenham Hotspurs fans and players.[14][15][16]

[Beefymcfc]

I hate racist's.

[Patrick]

I hate panorama for becoming ITV

[ross.mcfc]

What a pile of BS lies that documentary turned out to be.

Still, you can look forward the usual suspect lining up in 2016 to tell you how you will all be man raped in Brazil if you dare go there.

[one man army]

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Bunch of white guys dishing it out to Campbell for essentially saying black people shouldn't go. Right.

[BlueinBosnia]

Bunch of white guys dishing it out to Campbell for essentially saying black people shouldn't go. Right.

Is the guy in the front (number 2 shirt) white?