Season tickets sold out

[lets all have a disco]

Ive been to the Millenium and it is a top notch stadium really good acoustics with/without the roof shut it is a wonderfully thought out stadium smack bollocks bang in the centre of Cardiff if we could do something with The Etihad to increase the capacity and put a retractable roof on it that would be brilliant.
If needs must id do some time without a roof.

;-)

[Socrates]

Jon,
I think you are forgetting what Sport City actually is, the ethos behind the development of the area and the reasons why Sport England invested in the project. The stadium is only a small part of what was initially envisaged.
Sport City was initially built to facilitate the games but it was always planned that the area would be further developed to become a very much larger sports/leisure dedicated area. Since the games, a BMX stadium has been built and there were attempts to relocate Lancashire Cricket Club, to build an Ice rink and the cancelled super casino. There are huge swathes of empty land around the old gas works at the back of Sports City just for such development.

Neither Sport England nor the MCC have the funds to invest further and have been actively trying to find partners to continue the area's development. Under normal circumstances, Sport England would love to claw that money back but they also want development and the ADUG are the only active partners they have.

An expanded stadium with a few add ons (hotel/conference/leisure) facilities would make Sport England very happy bunnies indeed Mate. It would help them fulfill the original dream.

No matter what their dreams are John, I understand very well how public bodies work. The fact they would see their dream fulfilled would be made all the sweeter by getting their money back. If we demolish the stadium it would end the lease and trigger repayment of the funding. It wouldn't be a matter of choice on their part it would be their statutory duty to collect it.

[john68]

Sorry Jon, I was talking about developing the present one not demoliting it mate.

[Wonderwall]

I am sure they are closely monitoring what goes on with stratford too just in case spurs are successful and get some of the "legacy" terms changed.

[Socrates]

Sorry Jon, I was talking about developing the present one not demoliting it mate.

In which case there will be no issue.

[ant london]

I don't agree and I don't think you're closely enough (remotely) to the matter to be able to offer that definitive a view I'm afraid

although Sport England stumped up 77 mill for the stadium build and conversion and they are insisting the MCC put all our 4 mill annual rent back into sport. They do hold the cards don't they?

Alex I think you're being deliberately disingenuous there. I know that clearly they have leverage due to the terms of the grant/funding but the point I am making is that their vested interest is sporting facilities and we would be planning to enhance those...not do away with them or diminish them.

My point is that I do not think it is inevitable that they would make the call on a full clawback...and that we could not reach a compromise which is in everyone's best interests, financially very viable and allows City to do what they want....regardless of what the form of those original agreements was.

[Alex Sapphire]

I don't agree and I don't think you're closely enough (remotely) to the matter to be able to offer that definitive a view I'm afraid

although Sport England stumped up 77 mill for the stadium build and conversion and they are insisting the MCC put all our 4 mill annual rent back into sport. They do hold the cards don't they?

Alex I think you're being deliberately disingenuous there. I know that clearly they have leverage due to the terms of the grant/funding but the point I am making is that their vested interest is sporting facilities and we would be planning to enhance those...not do away with them or diminish them.

My point is that I do not think it is inevitable that they would make the call on a full clawback...and that we could not reach a compromise which is in everyone's best interests, financially very viable and allows City to do what they want....regardless of what the form of those original agreements was.

what me? Deliberately disingenuous?

My real issue with the idea of us building a wholly new stadium is I just can't see where it would fit. Would you also teardown the national Athlectics Arena/Squash/Tennis Centres?



Will they support our expansion of the stadium: I'd hope so as it's consistent witn their charter
Would they give us the blessing to tear it down and build a better one that they retained an interest in (at the same level as this one)? Possibly but would that suit us?
I mentioned the condition they put on MCC when we renegotiated the lease as I think this gives us a clue.

[youtube]vP0HHX4Ur9g[/youtube]

[Ted Hughes]

Imo, the expansion is most likely to be done as part of the development around the ground. We surely can't build that, then start taking the roof off the ground; it wouldn't make sense ?

I don't know how far they want to go with the development nearby but it's not impossible to imagine the structure of the ground becoming part of it if they think it's worth doing.

I would imagine that the way to do it would be: try to build the waiting list to a genuine 15/20,000 then expand the ground & sell season tickets to all of them. Hence 56,000 season ticket holders, 15,000 or so seats available to members. Instantly you would have crowd averages similar to rags.

This is why we need to keep bringing in one or two top players for the next year or two imo, even if it upsets Platini. Once we get those fans in, we've cracked it.

How have we cracked it?

Even at 50 quid a time, 20,000 extra fans x 19 only equates 180,000 extra visitors paying a total of £9m of additional matchday revenue over the season. It's just not worth the investment that would be needed to accommodate those extra 20,000 whichever way you look at it.

The only possible way would be if it were 20,000 hospitality seats at say 100quid a time, then it starts to make sense at 18m a year........except that even with the season tickets sold out, i guarantee there will be gaping voids of unsold corporate seats this year again - that market is going to need to drag the corporates away from old traffford where they have had a presence for the last 20 years, as we will be in direct competition with the rags for that type of business, and i expect we would have to win the league several times before we got a sniff of denting uniteds dominance in that area.

Errm, I never mentioned Utd apart from attendance mate.

I don't get your point - my post was asking how we would have "cracked it" with such a marginal increase in revenue per year.

Nothing to do with revenue. We have endless schemes in the pipeline for making money & the bigger crowds will just add to it.

I'm meaning that if we're pulling 70,000 fans pw in England, we have cracked it as a club, once and for all.

With our finances & our plans for other shit, once we have achieved that kind of turnout, the rest will follow on naturally.

[ant london]

I don't agree and I don't think you're closely enough (remotely) to the matter to be able to offer that definitive a view I'm afraid

although Sport England stumped up 77 mill for the stadium build and conversion and they are insisting the MCC put all our 4 mill annual rent back into sport. They do hold the cards don't they?

Alex I think you're being deliberately disingenuous there. I know that clearly they have leverage due to the terms of the grant/funding but the point I am making is that their vested interest is sporting facilities and we would be planning to enhance those...not do away with them or diminish them.

My point is that I do not think it is inevitable that they would make the call on a full clawback...and that we could not reach a compromise which is in everyone's best interests, financially very viable and allows City to do what they want....regardless of what the form of those original agreements was.

what me? Deliberately disingenuous?

My real issue with the idea of us building a wholly new stadium is I just can't see where it would fit. Would you also teardown the national Athlectics Arena/Squash/Tennis Centres?


Will they support our expansion of the stadium: I'd hope so as it's consistent witn their charter
Would they give us the blertessing to tear it down and build a better one that they retained an interest in (at the same level as this one)? Possibly but would that suit us?
I mentioned the condition they put on MCC when we renegotiated the lease as I think this gives us a clue.

the point you make re practical space and what goes there is the most compelling argument "against" rebuilding Alex.

BUT....I was part of our team which did the financing of when Arsenal moved to the Emirates and for "would they tear down the squash centre/regional athletics etc facilities and rebuild elsewhere" I'd say that I'd seen things that seem to make similarly "odd" sense happen in terms of what had to happen re Ashburton Grove and associated developments.

Who says that the squash centre and athletics track and other "relocated" facilities have to go in the Ashton New Rd, New Viaduct St, Alan Turing Way triangle. Even if they did, they could be put down in Parking 1 & 2 and then build the new ground on that vacated site. It's tight but looks possible....or relocate completely

[AG7]

Guys, you are forgetting the most important thing ... and trust me on this, I've just moved here after spending 10 years in the UAE and working very closely with the likes of Sheikh Mansour ... one fine day, and when that arrives (not if) he is going to order Khaldoon to build a new stadium ... the instructions will be simple enough it has got to be the biggest baddest mother fucker that must dwarf the Old Trafford, Real Madrid, Barca ... the lot. Simple! There won't be a budget, there won't be cutting any corners, there won't be any limitations from FFP either ... the guy sits on over a Trillion dollars of wealth fund, yes that's Trillion with a T and without lifting a finger takes in over $10bn an year and oil related contracts that are already in place for next 20-30 years ...

It's only a matter of WHEN he fancies it to be done not IF ... I think another couple of PL titles and a CL title ought to trigger it but if this coming year we start with Community Shield, lift the Carling Cup in Feb and then go on to pick FA Cup along with Premier and Champions League ... well, you'll see such orders given there and then.

The Sheikh (all brothers) in that family, and again take the word of someone who has worked very very closely within them for past ten plus years, they simply don't do anything to be second best to someone else ... and lucky for us growing up these guys were Liverpool fans and hated the Scum so us gives them a great platform to continue to piss the Rags off on every front.

PS. Don't be surprised if like Dubai Airport's new Terminal 3 or the under construction Abu Dhabi's new Terminal actual Gold dust is sprayed on and mixed with concrete to give the pillars a glitter effect ...

[Ted Hughes]

Guys, you are forgetting the most important thing ... and trust me on this, I've just moved here after spending 10 years in the UAE and working very closely with the likes of Sheikh Mansour ... one fine day, and when that arrives (not if) he is going to order Khaldoon to build a new stadium ... the instructions will be simple enough it has got to be the biggest baddest mother fucker that must dwarf the Old Trafford, Real Madrid, Barca ... the lot. Simple! There won't be a budget, there won't be cutting any corners, there won't be any limitations from FFP either ... the guy sits on over a Trillion dollars of wealth fund, yes that's Trillion with a T and without lifting a finger takes in over $10bn an year and oil related contracts that are already in place for next 20-30 years ...

It's only a matter of WHEN he fancies it to be done not IF ... I think another couple of PL titles and a CL title ought to trigger it but if this coming year we start with Community Shield, lift the Carling Cup in Feb and then go on to pick FA Cup along with Premier and Champions League ... well, you'll see such orders given there and then.

The Sheikh (all brothers) in that family, and again take the word of someone who has worked very very closely within them for past ten plus years, they simply don't do anything to be second best to someone else ... and lucky for us growing up these guys were Liverpool fans and hated the Scum so us gives them a great platform to continue to piss the Rags off on every front.

PS. Don't be surprised if like Dubai Airport's new Terminal 3 or the under construction Abu Dhabi's new Terminal actual Gold dust is sprayed on and mixed with concrete to give the pillars a glitter effect ...

Don't see why he would need to do that though. They could just build over this one & do pretty much what they like with it.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I'm just saddened that I write million word essays time and time again about the construction of current stadium and how it can be expanded numerous ways and no one ever listens. Two weeks goes and we have this very same topic again.

P.s. if someone in the Club is reading these posts, I'll be up for being part of building project. Just ask for my CV.

[Im_Spartacus]

I'm just saddened that I write million word essays time and time again about the construction of current stadium and how it can be expanded numerous ways and no one ever listens. Two weeks goes and we have this very same topic again.

P.s. if someone in the Club is reading these posts, I'll be up for being part of building project. Just ask for my CV.

People do listen, but are also realistic enough to know that starting from scratch is just as realistic a proposition given the depthof the owners pockets. AG makes a good point in that they will want the best (which i was saying could still be had for a modest price), and Cobbling bits on to a stadium is normally only done where there is no other option.

If we took the capacity up by 22k to say 70,000 then this would enable say a 200/300m outlay to provide a return on capital (in theory) within about 10/15 years, which for an infrastructure project of that size is pretty impressive, and provides a pretty strong argument for getting exactly what they want in a stadium, eg hotels, conference facilities, dedicated hospitality areas, and the image of having a stadium with a huge "wow" factor to enhance their image.

I know you are banging the drum to say its possible to expand, but there is a lot of logic to starting again

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I'm just saddened that I write million word essays time and time again about the construction of current stadium and how it can be expanded numerous ways and no one ever listens. Two weeks goes and we have this very same topic again.

P.s. if someone in the Club is reading these posts, I'll be up for being part of building project. Just ask for my CV.

People do listen, but are also realistic enough to know that starting from scratch is just as realistic a proposition given the depthof the owners pockets. AG makes a good point in that they will want the best (which i was saying could still be had for a modest price), and Cobbling bits on to a stadium is normally only done where there is no other option.

If we took the capacity up by 22k to say 70,000 then this would enable say a 200/300m outlay to provide a return on capital (in theory) within about 10/15 years, which for an infrastructure project of that size is pretty impressive, and provides a pretty strong argument for getting exactly what they want in a stadium, eg hotels, conference facilities, dedicated hospitality areas, and the image of having a stadium with a huge "wow" factor to enhance their image.

I know you are banging the drum to say its possible to expand, but there is a lot of logic to starting again

Fair enough.

I do see pros and cons in starting from the scratch. However basic build and structure of current stadium is imo pretty fantastic. If there were clear limitations in expanding (or more like building new blocks connected to current structure) I could understand the need for completely new stadia. I suppose in professional sense I would hate to see well built new structure destroyed as well.

Part of this is that people have never quite taken it as our home in Maine Road sense but I believe older generations never will no matter what. It's the younger generations for whom Maine Road is something they have never even seen or is just a fading memory who will eventually feel like Etihad is our home.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm just saddened that I write million word essays time and time again about the construction of current stadium and how it can be expanded numerous ways and no one ever listens. Two weeks goes and we have this very same topic again.

P.s. if someone in the Club is reading these posts, I'll be up for being part of building project. Just ask for my CV.

People do listen, but are also realistic enough to know that starting from scratch is just as realistic a proposition given the depthof the owners pockets. AG makes a good point in that they will want the best (which i was saying could still be had for a modest price), and Cobbling bits on to a stadium is normally only done where there is no other option.

If we took the capacity up by 22k to say 70,000 then this would enable say a 200/300m outlay to provide a return on capital (in theory) within about 10/15 years, which for an infrastructure project of that size is pretty impressive, and provides a pretty strong argument for getting exactly what they want in a stadium, eg hotels, conference facilities, dedicated hospitality areas, and the image of having a stadium with a huge "wow" factor to enhance their image.

I know you are banging the drum to say its possible to expand, but there is a lot of logic to starting again

Fair enough.

I do see pros and cons in starting from the scratch. However basic build and structure of current stadium is imo pretty fantastic. If there were clear limitations in expanding (or more like building new blocks connected to current structure) I could understand the need for completely new stadia. I suppose in professional sense I would hate to see well built new structure destroyed as well.

Part of this is that people have never quite taken it as our home in Maine Road sense but I believe older generations never will no matter what. It's the younger generations for whom Maine Road is something they have never even seen or is just a fading memory who will eventually feel like Etihad is our home.

But it isn't practical to start building from scratch. Not at all. There are huge plans for East Manchester & beyond with a 'sporting corridor' etc & a liesure destination. Also other entertainment stuff plus possible headquarters for sporting organisations & all kinds of shit. In the midst of this is our stadium & training ground, linked by a bridge etc. Now we're talking here about building another one ? So we have one stadium which has to be built, SOMEWHERE then when it's built, we have to knock down the other one, clear all the land & presumably use that space for building the stuff we were going to build on the space we've just stuck a fucking great big new stadium on & meanwhile, it all has to be postponed & wait whilst we have two stadia sat on the same site.

If we were building a new stadium, it would be going up now on the enomous, stadium sized, site where we're putting the training ground.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I'm just saddened that I write million word essays time and time again about the construction of current stadium and how it can be expanded numerous ways and no one ever listens. Two weeks goes and we have this very same topic again.

P.s. if someone in the Club is reading these posts, I'll be up for being part of building project. Just ask for my CV.

People do listen, but are also realistic enough to know that starting from scratch is just as realistic a proposition given the depthof the owners pockets. AG makes a good point in that they will want the best (which i was saying could still be had for a modest price), and Cobbling bits on to a stadium is normally only done where there is no other option.

If we took the capacity up by 22k to say 70,000 then this would enable say a 200/300m outlay to provide a return on capital (in theory) within about 10/15 years, which for an infrastructure project of that size is pretty impressive, and provides a pretty strong argument for getting exactly what they want in a stadium, eg hotels, conference facilities, dedicated hospitality areas, and the image of having a stadium with a huge "wow" factor to enhance their image.

I know you are banging the drum to say its possible to expand, but there is a lot of logic to starting again

Fair enough.

I do see pros and cons in starting from the scratch. However basic build and structure of current stadium is imo pretty fantastic. If there were clear limitations in expanding (or more like building new blocks connected to current structure) I could understand the need for completely new stadia. I suppose in professional sense I would hate to see well built new structure destroyed as well.

Part of this is that people have never quite taken it as our home in Maine Road sense but I believe older generations never will no matter what. It's the younger generations for whom Maine Road is something they have never even seen or is just a fading memory who will eventually feel like Etihad is our home.

But it isn't practical to start building from scratch. Not at all. There are huge plans for East Manchester & beyond with a 'sporting corridor' etc & a liesure destination. Also other entertainment stuff plus possible headquarters for sporting organisations & all kinds of shit. In the midst of this is our stadium & training ground, linked by a bridge etc. Now we're talking here about building another one ? So we have one stadium which has to be built, SOMEWHERE then when it's built, we have to knock down the other one, clear all the land & presumably use that space for building the stuff we were going to build on the space we've just stuck a fucking great big new stadium on & meanwhile, it all has to be postponed & wait whilst we have two stadia sat on the same site.

If we were building a new stadium, it would be going up now on the enomous, stadium sized, site where we're putting the training ground.

Like I said, I don't think it's sensible to build a new one especially since there are no real limitations (ie no space around the stadium, old structures that would have to be renewed anyway) of expanding if carefully planned. What makes the area of Sportcity so special is that there are lot of room to expand current stadium. That is rarely the case in stadia built in big cities.

Also the only reason to get rid of the lease of the ground would be to "stop rags singing about council house". The terms are so friendly for us that from financial perspective there's really no need for it.

I think people may not realise how much carefully planned expansion/improvement on current stadium would change it anyway. It would basically be like new stadium!

One thing we might have to do though is to move parts of the third tier little bit further from the pitch. But that's minor thing on the scale of the things.

[Ted Hughes]

People seem to be thinking mainly of the roof atm, & how it would effect what we can build but imo it's all dependant on what the Sheikh wants to do. The roof could be removed & replaced by another structure which isn't even part of the ground.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

People seem to be thinking mainly of the roof atm, & how it would effect what we can build but imo it's all dependant on what the Sheikh wants to do. The roof could be removed & replaced by another structure which isn't even part of the ground.

Exactly!

Also, like I said earlier, massive concourse towers are clearly standing on their own (there's a seam between councourse structure and main structure if anyone wants to check) so any new roof structure could be supported by these structures with carefull structural design. Base structure on the ground might have to be shored somewhat but again, that's no biggie.

[lets all have a disco]

People seem to be thinking mainly of the roof atm, & how it would effect what we can build but imo it's all dependant on what the Sheikh wants to do. The roof could be removed & replaced by another structure which isn't even part of the ground.

Exactly!

Also, like I said earlier, massive concourse towers are clearly standing on their own (there's a seam between councourse structure and main structure if anyone wants to check) so any new roof structure could be supported by these structures with carefull structural design. Base structure on the ground might have to be shored somewhat but again, that's no biggie.

You mean like this playa?

[Socrates]

Antti, I read your post with relief as well as interest. I was waiting for it in fact. People saying we might start from scratch are in cloud cuckoo land. The modern stadium was one of our major selling points when the Sheikh bought us. He isn't going to be knocking it down.