TWO "RIGHT CHARLIES"

[Lev Bronstein]

Alex, I think that was one of the points I was trying to make above. English football hasn't always been about hoofing up to the big man. A fair number of teams did have cultured players who could control the ball. Again before my time, but, for example, Jonny Haynes was supposed to be that type of player. Trevor Brooking wasn't too shabby either.

I do think though, that there is a loud section of the English/British football public that distrusts this sort of player. I remember watching City in the Bobby's early days when players would pass the ball about, patiently keeping posession until an something opened up, a large number in the crowd would be urging the players to "get it in the box".

A lot of people like the "English" game - blood and thunder (or should that be thud and blunder) and all that. It can be entertaining. Also look how many people find Spain's game boring.

If England are going to change their game, or to put it another way rediscover old football virtues, the a large number of the public are going to have to be educated.

[Alex Sapphire]

Alex, I think that was one of the points I was trying to make above. English football hasn't always been about hoofing up to the big man. A fair number of teams did have cultured players who could control the ball. Again before my time, but, for example, Jonny Haynes was supposed to be that type of player. Trevor Brooking wasn't too shabby either.

I do think though, that there is a loud section of the English/British football public that distrusts this sort of player. I remember watching City in the Bobby's early days when players would pass the ball about, patiently keeping posession until an something opened up, a large number in the crowd would be urging the players to "get it in the box".

A lot of people like the "English" game - blood and thunder (or should that be thud and blunder) and all that. It can be entertaining. Also look how many people find Spain's game boring.

If England are going to change their game, or to put it another way rediscover old football virtues, the a large number of the public are going to have to be educated.

I think this ia a fair summary.
If Mike Bassett wasn't so funny, it wouldn't be funny.
This England were done no favours by seeing a poor Chelski do barca and bayern over, leading lots to believe that we could get away with it.
You can't.
And your "boring" comment rings true as well as we had that shot at us mid season by fifties throwback Jens Lehmann didn't we

[Dameerto]

One of our strengths (as England) is the pace we can play the game at - every continental player that comes here says the same thing about the Prem, it's a challenge and it is one of the reasons it's considered the best league in the world. Whatever style or method we adopt it has to take this into consideration. A full pace (on form) England can still scare the crap out of most European sides.

[sheikh it all about]

Grass roots youth football is changing and brooking is heavily involved in doing this.

U10 and lower ages are now only 7 a side. Next season for the first time u11 & u12 are 9 a side after being trialled with the u11s for a few seasons. The big problem is pitch sizes, goals and markings for the 9 a side as there are not enough. A trial of inflatable goals is underway and are really good but the quality does not last and its expensive to keep repairing and replacing them.

Brooking has been to my youth club many times and is very passionate about changing how we are at grass roots. Having seen how he is first hand, i completely disagree with any negative press. Rome wasnt built in a day.

That's good to hear. I stand corrected.

[Beefymcfc]

One of our strengths (as England) is the pace we can play the game at - every continental player that comes here says the same thing about the Prem, it's a challenge and it is one of the reasons it's considered the best league in the world. Whatever style or method we adopt it has to take this into consideration. A full pace (on form) England can still scare the crap out of most European sides.

But as Mancini states, you will only get a full paced England team if we get an International break. It's not only a physical thing, it's become a mental one also.

[twosips]

The thing is, its the technicality of a lot of the foreigners that makes that pace and high energy worthwhile. Pace and power is nowt if you can't pass a ball...take Walcott for example who usually does fuck all with the ball compared to say, Valencia, who beats his man and crosses very well. Likewise, Power is nothing if you can't finish brutally. He's alright, but Carroll doesn't have anywhere near the same technical ability as Drogba.

We find ourselves just relying on the physical attributes to our game at a national level, and there's more to it than that. You need technical ability too.

[getdressedmctavish]

well a very interesting debate. Couple of points.The Prem draws from the world but we only have two small ball players, Silva and Modric playing in it.We are short of this kind of player. Cleverley and Wiltshire might make it but we've missed a few year groups in between them and the age 30 plus players.But they are few and far between because, even in Spain, there is a good chance they wont make it unless they develop the strength and stamina.We've been critical of Johnson. Why? Not his skill level is it!

Second how do we explain the dominance of Germany. Their game is built on athleticism.

So, getting midgets to dribble all day wont necessarily solve the problem that great players are a rarity or deflect from the fact that Hodgson did his best with a poor unfit bunch. If we had been fit enough we could have beaten Italy but Gerrard and Parker were fucked early second half as soon as we tried to get at them.When you have to bring on Henderson it says everything about your options or lack of them. And lord knows they aint great cos the press are talking about building a team around Jones and Smalling for fecks sake.

[twosips]

You're kind of downplaying the technical brilliance of the likes of Ozil, Lahm, Schweinsteiger etc by saying Germany's dominance is built on athleticism. It isn't...its built on a combination of the two. There's a balance to be had. We tend to favour physicality...and that's where we go wrong.

[Lev Bronstein]

One of our strengths (as England) is the pace we can play the game at - every continental player that comes here says the same thing about the Prem, it's a challenge and it is one of the reasons it's considered the best league in the world. Whatever style or method we adopt it has to take this into consideration. A full pace (on form) England can still scare the crap out of most European sides.

At first I thought you were right about England, then I thought, when was the last time England scared any of the top teams? Sure they win the odd game against the best, but so do Barnsley.

I think you're right about the Prem, and some fine players have failed to cope. The trick would be to combine pace and athleticism with skill and nous - something Germany (and Real Madrid) seem to be trying to do.

[Beefymcfc]

How many England players play outside of the Prem?

[Wonderwall]

Parker was a fitness doubt going into the tournament. Gerrard has been unfit all season as he has had injury after injury, it has to be hodgson and his staff that are to blame. Playing unfit players in a game that can go 120 mins and not planning for it is the problem.

Also, how do the English leagues have a winter break? I dont see how it is possible with the current amount of games per season. Do the prem not contest the league cup? Do the league reduce the amount of teams? Do we say prem teams only enter later in the FA Cup? Its already a struggle for the top teams to complete the schedule on time as it is with a world cup or euro champs on the horizon. Even the FA Cup final has been moved to accomodate.

I dont see how we can have a winter break?

[Lev Bronstein]

How many England players play outside of the Prem?

Good point, but I think wages are an issue - what European team would match Joey Barton's wages?

[Beefymcfc]

Parker was a fitness doubt going into the tournament. Gerrard has been unfit all season as he has had injury after injury, it has to be hodgson and his staff that are to blame. Playing unfit players in a game that can go 120 mins and not planning for it is the problem.

Also, how do the English leagues have a winter break? I dont see how it is possible with the current amount of games per season. Do the prem not contest the league cup? Do the league reduce the amount of teams? Do we say prem teams only enter later in the FA Cup? Its already a struggle for the top teams to complete the schedule on time as it is with a world cup or euro champs on the horizon. Even the FA Cup final has been moved to accomodate.

I dont see how we can have a winter break?

Add to that the international breaks, a friendly 3 days before the season starts?

[Beefymcfc]

How many England players play outside of the Prem?

Good point, but I think wages are an issue - what European team would match Joey Barton's wages?

What European team would want Barton? Money is an issue but why do we put so much stock in average players (he is not International class).

[Swales4ever]

thanks everyone for adding to this great thread.
It's just too much for my knowledge, so that I cant add anything of note.
just wanted to let You all know that these are the kind of threads that makes this place so spacial.


well, along with some luxury rants and Slim's assessments on my 4th tier personality, off course... :-)

[razor400]

Mutha fuckin drunk rant alert bitches.

Hodgson seems to be getting away with murder no one is questioning his squad, tactics. starting line ups or substitutions. I heard someone say the other day that he only had a short time to pick his squad. My response was that the twat had been a prem manager for years, knew the players and had quite simply made shit decisions. How many of the top teams in the prem actually still play 4 4 fucking 2. We don't and even with blue tinted glasses AJ and Micah were obvious choices to start for England along with Joe, Lescott and Millie. But oh no, the FA have got to keep the scousers happy, I'll accept Gerrard and thats all. Grant Holt, sorry lad you play for Norwich and even though you had a far better season than Carroll and your team finished a massive 5 points behind the fuckin history boys you ain't glam enough for the mighty Engerland.
Scott Parker, what the fuck does he do, Its like having a fucking fan on the pitch, just stood there watching and giving the cunting ball away, fucking do one.
The myth of Rooney this cunt really is the footballing equivalent of the emperors new clothes.

(I just found some biscuits, get the fuck in bitch)

Pirlo, hes old and won't do fuck all. Jesus fucking henry. It wasn't working woy why the fuck couldn't you see that you dumb fuck. Change the fucking system, go 5 across and play on the break with a bit of pace. Actually don't fucking bother cause that would mean subbing the almighty mirkin headed ballsack Rooninho the white Pele. More like the white twating heskey but not as fucking dynamic.

This would of been my line up for the Italy game, obviously not taking into account injuries or shit squad selection

Hart
Micah Terry Lescott Cole
Barry
AJ Milner Gerrard Lennon
Defoe

Rant done

[Swales4ever]

top rant
very very good post despite (alleged) drunkness.
very much agreable lineup, bar Defoe and, possibly, Lennon

[twosips]

Parker was a fitness doubt going into the tournament. Gerrard has been unfit all season as he has had injury after injury, it has to be hodgson and his staff that are to blame. Playing unfit players in a game that can go 120 mins and not planning for it is the problem.

Also, how do the English leagues have a winter break? I dont see how it is possible with the current amount of games per season. Do the prem not contest the league cup? Do the league reduce the amount of teams? Do we say prem teams only enter later in the FA Cup? Its already a struggle for the top teams to complete the schedule on time as it is with a world cup or euro champs on the horizon. Even the FA Cup final has been moved to accomodate.

I dont see how we can have a winter break?

If they can find a way in Germany, Italy and Spain, then we can. I think they only have one domestic cup. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck if we weren't in the Carling Cup....

[Ted Hughes]

well a very interesting debate. Couple of points.The Prem draws from the world but we only have two small ball players, Silva and Modric playing in it.We are short of this kind of player. Cleverley and Wiltshire might make it but we've missed a few year groups in between them and the age 30 plus players.But they are few and far between because, even in Spain, there is a good chance they wont make it unless they develop the strength and stamina.We've been critical of Johnson. Why? Not his skill level is it!

Second how do we explain the dominance of Germany. Their game is built on athleticism.

So, getting midgets to dribble all day wont necessarily solve the problem that great players are a rarity or deflect from the fact that Hodgson did his best with a poor unfit bunch. If we had been fit enough we could have beaten Italy but Gerrard and Parker were fucked early second half as soon as we tried to get at them.When you have to bring on Henderson it says everything about your options or lack of them. And lord knows they aint great cos the press are talking about building a team around Jones and Smalling for fecks sake.

I always respect your outlook Mctavish & imo If Johnson had been born in Spain, he'd have learned his trade differently & would be rated as a possible Silva/Nasri option by Bob. He's pushed out wide because he's uneducated in football through being British imo.

Agree with pretty much all you say apart from Cleverly, who I was impressed with as a kid but seems mediocre to me now. If he proves otherwise then fair enough though.

[Ted Hughes]

Mutha fuckin drunk rant alert bitches.

Hodgson seems to be getting away with murder no one is questioning his squad, tactics. starting line ups or substitutions. I heard someone say the other day that he only had a short time to pick his squad. My response was that the twat had been a prem manager for years, knew the players and had quite simply made shit decisions. How many of the top teams in the prem actually still play 4 4 fucking 2. We don't and even with blue tinted glasses AJ and Micah were obvious choices to start for England along with Joe, Lescott and Millie. But oh no, the FA have got to keep the scousers happy, I'll accept Gerrard and thats all. Grant Holt, sorry lad you play for Norwich and even though you had a far better season than Carroll and your team finished a massive 5 points behind the fuckin history boys you ain't glam enough for the mighty Engerland.
Scott Parker, what the fuck does he do, Its like having a fucking fan on the pitch, just stood there watching and giving the cunting ball away, fucking do one.
The myth of Rooney this cunt really is the footballing equivalent of the emperors new clothes.

(I just found some biscuits, get the fuck in bitch)

Pirlo, hes old and won't do fuck all. Jesus fucking henry. It wasn't working woy why the fuck couldn't you see that you dumb fuck. Change the fucking system, go 5 across and play on the break with a bit of pace. Actually don't fucking bother cause that would mean subbing the almighty mirkin headed ballsack Rooninho the white Pele. More like the white twating heskey but not as fucking dynamic.

This would of been my line up for the Italy game, obviously not taking into account injuries or shit squad selection

Hart
Micah Terry Lescott Cole
Barry
AJ Milner Gerrard Lennon
Defoe

Rant done

All this kind of stuff depends on if you're trying to be a politician, win a tournament or advance the cause of English football for the future. The choice of Roy, or Harry for this tournament, was purely about politics imo.

The best result for either was defeat without humiliation, whatever the selection.

We now need to see what the next plan is.