Lavezzi to PSG

[Ted Hughes]

I think we are both well aware who is in fucking charge.

I fully agree with the "we won't be taken for a ride" policy re players and agents fees and demands. BUT that does not mean we need to act like leaden footed fools in the market either.

I agree fully with the remit handed down by the owner and Khaldoon but the execution fucking stinks.

I've worked on enough large corporate transactions to see that Marwood is an amateur...you can smell it a mile off. I would rather the owner replace him with a proper deal execution professional teamed with a director of football or similar

What exactly does Marwood do then, when it comes to these particular deals ? And how do you know ?
And if we are doing more than one deal, which one is Marwood responsible for ? The one we get, or the one we fail to get ?

[ant london]

We've had some fantastic transfer successes in the last few years. Sergio, Yaya, Silva....even Nasri although it dragged.

I'm not saying there haven't been some good results but at the time we were selling the "hope/expectation of success" factor along with massive bloody salaries and nice tasty fees for the selling club.

We now have the "sell" of....PL Champions plus you play in the PL's most talented squad....in likely the best facilities going forward and we pay you very well.

We should be able to blow the likes of fucking Juventus out of the water on all fronts currently....ditto United for lots of players. If Barcelona or Real Madrid want the player in question it's a tougher ask but otherwise we should not be losing players we want unless we choose to walk away (a la Hazard).

The tactics, approach or strategy in trying to tie up some of these deals we are in for is shit IMO. And no I don't work for City but nor do you....so we are both using a degree of conjecture I agree


oh and "how do I know what Marwood does". I work on enough deals to know that he is project managing this activity internally, he is the "point man" at City. No he isn't the ultimate decision maker when it comes to go/don't go but he is the one co-ordinating much of the strategy and approach up to then...if he's not then what the fuck is his job...and he is not very good at it.

[Mase]

I get the feeling that they can't let Marwood go as he knows too much already.

[Ted Hughes]

We've had some fantastic transfer successes in the last few years. Sergio, Yaya, Silva....even Nasri although it dragged.

I'm not saying there haven't been some good results but at the time we were selling the "hope/expectation of success" factor along with massive bloody salaries and nice tasty fees for the selling club.

We now have the "sell" of....PL Champions plus you play in the PL's most talented squad....in likely the best facilities going forward and we pay you very well.

We should be able to blow the likes of fucking Juventus out of the water on all fronts currently....ditto United for lots of players. If Barcelona or Real Madrid want the player in question it's a tougher ask but otherwise we should not be losing players we want unless we choose to walk away (a la Hazard).

The tactics, approach or strategy in trying to tie up some of these deals we are in for is shit IMO. And no I don't work for City but nor do you....so we are both using a degree of conjecture I agree

Ok, that's correct but

1: Do we know for sure that RVP for example is Mancini's first choice ?
2: do we know that the reports in the press of offers are all true ?
3: Would you sell RVP to City before playing them on tour in front of 1 billion Chinese ?

[ant london]

1: Do we know for sure that RVP for example is Mancini's first choice ? No we don't but he has been pretty open about his interest and I can only recall him doing that publicly when we were defo in for people a la Nasri, Hazard etc etc
2: do we know that the reports in the press of offers are all true ? No, and I am certain they are not with the exception of the leaked United offer. BUT if we've not made a firm statement of interest that is sufficient to get us sat at the table and hopefully officially talking with RvP, if we are interested which I think we can assume we are, then why on earth not. Why let the likes of Juve and United even sit down when we could have closed this out
3: Would you sell RVP to City before playing them on tour in front of 1 billion Chinese ? Yes, I'd do it early enough to have cash in hand an announce something like Santi Carzola on top of Giroud and Podolski and show that we are moving on and in the right direction


We do not disagree on where we want to head or the logic underpinning that. I'm not even relating my comments to Robin Van Persie. I don't really think we need to sign him, he would be a nice bonus but also a problem in terms of who do we get rid of and can we do so without creating another Adebayor type situation.

What I am more worked up about is that I would have liked us to get into the market early and bag the pacey ball delivering midfielder who I know you want as do a large percentage of us, another top class centre half and maybe also a Silva back-up. We need those much more than RvP....why the fuck have we not got at least one or two of them done or good as done. That is the real source of my frustration re our "deal team"...or Marwood whichever way you want to interpret that

[Ted Hughes]

1: Do we know for sure that RVP for example is Mancini's first choice ? No we don't but he has been pretty open about his interest and I can only recall him doing that publicly when we were defo in for people a la Nasri, Hazard etc etc
2: do we know that the reports in the press of offers are all true ? No, and I am certain they are not with the exception of the leaked United offer. BUT if we've not made a firm statement of interest that is sufficient to get us sat at the table and hopefully officially talking with RvP, if we are interested which I think we can assume we are, then why on earth not. Why let the likes of Juve and United even sit down when we could have closed this out
3: Would you sell RVP to City before playing them on tour in front of 1 billion Chinese ? Yes, I'd do it early enough to have cash in hand an announce something like Santi Carzola on top of Giroud and Podolski and show that we are moving on and in the right direction


We do not disagree on where we want to head or the logic underpinning that. I'm not even relating my comments to Robin Van Persie. I don't really think we need to sign him, he would be a nice bonus but also a problem in terms of who do we get rid of and can we do so without creating another Adebayor type situation.

What I am more worked up about is that I would have liked us to get into the market early and bag the pacey ball delivering midfielder who I know you want as do a large percentage of us, another top class centre half and maybe also a Silva back-up. We need those much more than RvP....why the fuck have we not got at least one or two of them done or good as done. That is the real source of my frustration re our "deal team"...or Marwood whichever way you want to interpret that

I would prefer to have everything done & would prefer to have a big gun/name other than Marwood, just to pull any big names that may be fancying it in the future, but I think that the pool of players who can improve this team is so small that we are talking absolute top quality & that doesn't shift easily. I will slate Marwood if I see a problem but then Khaldoon would deserve his arse kicking for keeping him on. I honestly don't believe Marwood is in charge of it. I think he does the donkey work & hands it over to the pros. Just my opinion.

But anyway, if you imagine we have targets plan A, plan B, plan C, we aren't going to go for plan B until plan A is either dead in the water or too much of a pain (Hazard). It seems to me, reading between the lines, that most of our plan A options are still very much in play. Last year we fucked about and fucked about (or so it seemed) chasing Sanchez, then suddenly we had Aguero.

Now all of a sudden, Cavani's agent is stirring. Does Mancini want RVP ahead of Cavani ? Does he want both ? In which case, we have to dump two strikers. It's nowhere near as cut & dried as some are suggesting imo & if we can't get the best, we probably sign a couple of kids & that's it anyway.

I strongly disagree about letting RVP go to City before playing in China though. Wenger would be absolutely fucking incandescent if RVP turned up in a blue shirt whilst trying to sell Arsenal to the Chinese. Even if he signed here whilst they were over there, Wenger would have to field questions all the time. It would be a PR disaster & PR is the only reason they are there. Also, you are assuming Arsenal want to spend the money. I'm not so sure.

Whatever though if we did that with our star player, it would be fucking carnage on here.

[john68]

Ant,
With much respect to both you and Doomie, I am gobsmacked at your apparent lack of understanding of the reality of City's investment programme and how naively you chuck the blame at Marwood.

Originally, the City investment programme was over a much longer period. It was only speeded up because of the impending introduction of the FFP. That was clearly stated around the time of Hughes's sacking.
Because of the FFP, it became NECESSARY to qualify for the CL. CL qualification is important because it opens up so many channels to massively increase income; TV/broadcasting, Commercial/marketing and match-day revenues. Winning the FA Cup and latterly the Prem was great for our global profile and though we benefit financially, they were NOT NECESSARY for our financial aims.

Khaldoon has clearly stated several times that player investment levels would diminish and it was also clearly stated that we had a SELL/BUY policy. It really is quite simple, despite our petro-trillions, our balance sheet is dictating our policy and we can't afford it.

[john68]

Only a few hours after winning the League, Mancini stated that we should now strengthen the team. That is wholly understandable from his standpoint. He is charged with bringing "on pitch" success to the Etihad, that is his only priority. How our owners raise the cash, is NOT his responsibility.
De Rossi, Cavani, Hazard and van Persie may be on his wish list but Mancini is merely the kid at the toy shop window. Khaldoon, under orders from the Sheik is the parent with a responsibility to the bigger financial picture, who are saying; "Sorry but we can't afford that" or "We will only pay £X amount."

Marwood is only the servant girl sent on an errand to the shop to try and find the right toy at a bargain price.

ps...and yes, I too would still prefer it if Cook was in the chair.

[Tokyo Blue]

I think the club's whole transfer policy has changed. I believe signing kids is now the main focus, not building the first team. Witness serious attempts to get the lad from Caen, among others.

I don't particularly like Mr. Marwood, but I really don't see how that change in policy would be his fault.

And how do we know that the club didn't walk away from Hazard?

[ant london]

I think it's pretty clear that we walked away from the Hazard deal. I'm not sure anyone is disputing that are they??

Also agree that there has been clearly a shift in the main focus of our transfer activity towards really bringing in top quality youth. But the ages of the kids we are bringing in means that, realistically, they are not even going to be in the first team frame for three to five years so even though we have moved our primary focus that does not and cannot mean that we don't strengthen the first team. It's clear from the activity of Chelsea in particular, Arsenal certainly maybe Spurs and who knows re United/Liverpool that standing still will be going backwards and we all know that certain reinforcements are needed.

We don't really need any replacements per say and there are only a few first team slots where players may be available/acquirable and could genuinely improve us. We don't need any major acquisition policy re first team this year but I think we are mainly all agreed that (say) three new players could really make us much stronger and prepare us for the challenge ahead.

We were very unlucky with suspensions last season with Vinnie especially and the ACN hurt is with Yaya away BUT we were very fortunate with injuries compared to our competitors. I don't think we can enter the campaign expecting to be as fortunate this time around. Silva, Vinnie, Yaya or Sergio out for half the season could fuck us up


EDIT: sorry John, just seen your post above.

With the greatest respect mate, you are fundamentally misinterpreting what my gripe is with Marwood and our acquisition strategy.

It is not the fact that I think we should be continuing to throw around silly money and be taken for mugs for evermore in the market. I do not want that in the least. My issue and Doom's I am certain is the fact that we are dilly dallying and not engaging properly at the appropriate level so as to be able to conduct proper negotiations and close out deals before we get into the silly bollocks multiple clubs being played off against one another in the press stage.

Now, clearly, in the case of Hazard for example we were dragged into that deliberately by his agent but in other cases....(and you can look at how United did the Kagawa deal or the lad Powell from Crewe...both of whom interested a lot of other clubs...or Arsenal's deals for Podolski/Giroud) we can and should be tying deals up early doors.

That is what has pissed Mancini off previously and I'm certain will be doing so now and that is what is frustrating me as, although I don't buy football players, you know what I do for a job and I see much bigger deals than this done at close quarters and I can and am drawing some parallels with our strategy which is amateurish and, yes, I do put that blame at Marwood's door as he is the one with the day to day responsibility. Khaldoon has way too much in the way of other "day jobs" to be involved like that, he is Chairman also, that is not his job remotely.

[john68]

Ant,
Somehow, somewhere, we have to lose a deficit of £195M. With the one of payments included in the last balance sheet and the allowed UeFA deficit, that leaves us somewhere around £146M short of compliance. Couple that with the clearly stated ""Buy when we sell" policy and it becomes clear that we have little or no transfer budget.
In football terms, that may sound like a disaster but if our owners think we are strong enough to qualify for CL (and we should be), they are happy to let this window slip by.
We assume we walked from the Hazard deal...Cavani? De Rossi? Lavezza? etc. Maybe we are only hanging in the Van Persie deal because think we have a chance of a bargain...injuries, age and his present contract status keeping the price down

I simply don't think that the deals for us are there and that is not the fault of Marwood. Until our Sheik opens the wall safe, he can't go shopping. He can't land deals without funds. Our owners will hope to have a decent CL run and increase our coefficient and possibly land a cup. Despite what we and Mancini might want.

[Ted Hughes]

Everyone is talking as if we have done less than we can in order to aquire our targets.

Imo if we offered Arsenal 30 mil for RVP he'd be ours, but not until at least Saturday, probably Monday, & Marwood isn't the bloke who decides that fee, he waits until it's authorised by the Sheikh himself.

I recon the Marwood & associates bit (agreeing a deal with RVP) was done bout 6 months ago.

It's Arsenal who are digging their heels in & rightly so, he's their player & they are entitled to get the best price, just as the Sheikh is entitled to keep bidding slightly higher in order to get the lowest price & to say 'up yours' if he thinks it's too much.

I don't think Marwood has any say in this whatsoever. If he did, we would just blow everyone out of the water & sign whoever at whatever price for whatever wages, as it wouldn't be his problem.

Martinez, the other biggest rumour, is playing at the Olympics & has Barca chasing him. We have seen what happens when Barca are involved with a Spaniard or South American; the player wants to go there & hangs on. The call on how long we persue that or whether we go for plan B, or don't bother, will be Mancini's not Marwood's.

Just to add, it wouldn't surprise me if City (& possibly the rags) have deals agreed with Bale's reps should he decide to fuck Spurs off next season. That's the kind of thing Marwood is up to imo.

[sheikh it all about]

Was about to say much the same. £30m for RVP and he'd be here already. £6m agent fees and we would probably have won the chase for Hazard. That's no longer what we are about mainly, but not exclusively, for the reasons John has stated. FFP and all that.

Pity we didn't have the strict parent when the likes of Santa Cruz and certain others were in the sweetie jars. We looked like a bunch of tits and that's another good reason, IMO, for being more prudent now. I would rather us be a class club than just loadsamoney.

[mcfc1632]

Cor - look at how we have moved up in the world - bemoaning not going for this star name or having spent that large lump etc

I am not being sarcastic or being at odds with anyone’s opinions – I understand frustrations and I would also worry that having waited for so long and having endured so much pain, after winning the lottery and the achievement and excitement of May, we do not want to lapse back and let the scum (or more likely Chelsea) go past us.

That said we do need to manage the FFPR conspiracy and I have heard lots of fans on here saying that the sheik and his team will sort it – well guys this is part of sorting it.

A number of posters on here have tried to explain that the threat is real and targeted at CITY to a large degree – sorting it does not mean simply getting some legal suits on the case – that is a lot of simple-minded macho bollocks – again IMO.

We have in the past tried to get firm on not using agents etc and we ended up having to compromise to get where we wanted to get to. So, after years of the transfer market, media and especially agents hearing a message (whether true or not) that from CITY you can milk the biggest salaries, transfer fees and agents fees, we are now looking to send out a different message. This is going to be very tough to get the clubs, players and agents to accept and it will only come about by action. Action such as walking away from the Hazard deal – and of course there will be ‘fall-out’ with the club occasionally losing out on a player that the manager wanted. But the line had to be drawn and there needs to be backbone showed (by fans as well) in sticking to it. I think that we would have taken such a stance anyway – but the FFPR carve up really focuses everyone’s minds.

And anyway what is all this about the scum being good getting powell or kagawa – there would be a massive feeling of being underwhelmed if we and made those deals – guys we do not need more 2nd tier or fringe players. If we are going to buy a player likely to come into the 1st team then it would need to be one of a very few players available that could really improve on what we have.

I would expect this team to play better this year than last with more experience of working together and a clear bond cemented amongst team mates.

Yes lets pounce on any opportunity to sign a ‘top echelon’ player if it arises, but lets not sound off like spoilt brats (again that is not aimed at anyone). Also lets not recognise the challenge the club faces bringing in this new policy!!!!

Can you imagine a discussion (hypothetical) with Cavani or his agent in which we say that we value you at a wage level far less that we gave to Ade!!! You can imagine him sitting down to fully absorb the story of how we needed to establish and therefore paid over the odds etc – this management of major transactions is not such a noddy level activity as some seem to think.

And Marwood? He is the lead administrator IMO. That is not a trivial role – I have managed major negotiations / departments and value highly those that then put in place all the detail of the deal that I had done – they are essential

I think that we need the season to start because a lot of this noise is likely to do with the fact that lots of fans wnat to see the champions back in action and fill the void with angst

[Socrates]

Well said 1632. People are also forgetting what a young side we have too, contrasted to our 2 most likely rivals who have so many key players who are over 30. They need new blood far more than we do! The idea that this side cannot get 89+ points again without new signings is farcical.

[The Italian Job]

Fair enough, but this bit

And anyway what is all this about the scum being good getting powell or kagawa – there would be a massive feeling of being underwhelmed if we and made those deals – guys we do not need more 2nd tier or fringe players. If we are going to buy a player likely to come into the 1st team then it would need to be one of a very few players available that could really improve on what we have.

to be blunt, is absolute bullshit. Don't know what's so underwhelming about a very talented kid from a prolific Academy & one of the best players in the last two Bundesliga seasons.

I think the FFP angle is a bit of an excuse currently as it doesn't add up with the RVP interest (& the Hazard bid). A potential package (fees & wages) would be a massive outlay, which I'd rather see spent on other positions (Silva cover, Savic replacement) than on another star striker.

I'd have Kagawa over RVP fwiw.

[ant london]

Fuck me 1632....I credit you with a bit more nouse.

To clarify, once again, the point I am making is not WHO United or Arsenal bought but HOW they conducted/concluded the deals.

I don't disagree with what you or 68 have said re FFP, not in the least, there are some major issues to address but if people think we can easily win the league again (without benefitting from pretty extreme good fortune re injuries/suspensions again) making no investment in the face of the reinforcing that is going on elsewhere in the PL then they are delusional.

I do think we'll improve as players get to know each other better, absolutely. But we all know that the squad has weaknesses and they need to be addressed.

[Ted Hughes]

Fair enough, but this bit

And anyway what is all this about the scum being good getting powell or kagawa – there would be a massive feeling of being underwhelmed if we and made those deals – guys we do not need more 2nd tier or fringe players. If we are going to buy a player likely to come into the 1st team then it would need to be one of a very few players available that could really improve on what we have.

to be blunt, is absolute bullshit. Don't know what's so underwhelming about a very talented kid from a prolific Academy & one of the best players in the last two Bundesliga seasons.

I think the FFP angle is a bit of an excuse currently as it doesn't add up with the RVP interest (& the Hazard bid). A potential package (fees & wages) would be a massive outlay, which I'd rather see spent on other positions (Silva cover, Savic replacement) than on another star striker.

I'd have Kagawa over RVP fwiw.

It's not just FFP, hence the Hazard bid, it's just decent practice. We have SIX huge earning strikers & it seems Mancini wants a seventh. It also seems as if the board have caved in to Mancini's demands but are trying to do it as cheap as possible & balance it out with hopefully getting out RSC & Adebayor. If you think about it; it's fucking madness to sign RVP but Bob is pushing it because he thinks it will make the difference. No other team in history would be doing this deal without offloading 3 strikers first.

If Ade RSC go, it leaves us with FIVE if we sign RVP. The latest bid for Dzeko is ten mil short. So we could be going into the season with five strikers on 150k plus per week. That's going to end up something like 40 million quid purely on striker's wages!

Does it really need any explaination as to why we are being cagey & trying to do the best deals possible ?

[john68]

Ant,

.......but if people think we can easily win the league again (without benefitting from pretty extreme good fortune re injuries/suspensions again) making no investment in the face of the reinforcing that is going on elsewhere in the PL then they are delusional.

I do think we'll improve as players get to know each other better, absolutely. But we all know that the squad has weaknesses and they need to be addressed.

...and therein lies the difference in our arguments Ant. You are arguing in a FOOTBALL sense mate but you need to think about this in a FINANCE sense.
This is going to sound stupid and half assed to many on here who are steeped in MCFC as a FOOTBALL Club. At this moment we are a BUSINESS. Our owners never bought us to win trophies (that was a side issue). Our owners bought us as a vehicle to enhance their global FINANCIAL interests. Winning the League was great for them as it enhances the reputation of the brand but at this point in their plans and compounded by the FFP, QUALIFYING FOR THE CL WAS THE PRIMARY TARGET. The big money was invested for that reason.
Winning the Prem may add a to our reputation and add a few pennies to the coffers but it is the CL that offers us the necessary HUGE income increases. Time and time again, we hear clubs talking about the necessity of CL qualification. IT IS CRUCIAL to our evolution. Winning trophies is what WE FANS WANT it is what MANCINI and the TEAM WANTS but for the development of MCFC the business, it is NOT CRUCIAL.

[Ted Hughes]

It may be crucial for all we know but that doesn't change the fact that Khaldoon has stated we won't be paying over the odds for players anymore, so it doesn't matter what we think. The agent's bribes are also out.

So, if it costs us the league this season that we won't be ripped off, it costs us the league. That's up to our bosses. We have no right to demand anything only hope.

Has anyone considered that signing players early costs 150k pw+ extra for each player for each week before the season starts btw ?