New Defensive Coach

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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:29 am

Cocacolajojo wrote:The goals we are shipping is one thing, but the bigger issue is our team formation and how we press other teams. The entire shape and setup of our team defensively, is problematic. Its not a huge problem but it is nonetheless a problem. Unless its fixed it will continue to cause us problems and having to claw back games with last gasp goals.

If it is fixed, we will win the league.


We seem to be trying different systems though & sometimes within the same game. Sometimes we play a Barca style pressing game but then at other times we seem to play a more Italian style 'standing off' kind of game.

It seems to me that either we don't have the legs to play the pressing game & are having to stop (in which case we need yet another change of players) or are trying to be clever & switching from one system to another.

Then add in the bizarre 4 up front shit which we played at times v Dortmund, Villa & v Ajax away, then the back 3 system....

Bob will either get all these systems to work & we will be incredible & virtually unstoppable, stop trying to force it & get back to basics & we will not be quite as good but probably win the league, or keep trying & failling to get it right, have a complete disaster & get fired.

No idea which outcome will prevail but if I had to guess, I'd say the second, we'll knock some of it on the head, settle down & win the league. Then he'll try it again next season & we'll get knocked out of europe again.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:51 am

If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:43 am

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:00 pm

I would say the leaders at the back, certainly based on how vocal they are , are Joe,Vinnie and Joleon.From a corner they all know their jobs and if anyone isn't in the right place for starters Joe will certainly let them know but it's once that kick is taken there seems to be a team switching off at times.

Too often Yaya seems to watch the ball fly over not realising he is in a good position to at least challenge for the ball.Barry the same but somehow they go into ball watching mode as if "it's not my area". Surely if you are the near post man and the ball is hit short,it is your job to move forward to meet it and not allow some plonker to run in front of you and get a header in.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:01 pm

Hazy2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.


Yaya should never be given any kind of job defensively, he has proven he will let the team down, over & over again. He doesn't mark, he doesn't pick up runners, he is a total liability if given a set job. He should be in a free role.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Douglas Higginbottom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:13 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.


Yaya should never be given any kind of job defensively, he has proven he will let the team down, over & over again. He doesn't mark, he doesn't pick up runners, he is a total liability if given a set job. He should be in a free role.



That's got to be the case for Yaya.I would guess he is targetted by the opposition in exactly those situations.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ajardine » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:16 pm

Fuck zonal marking right off!!! You cannot let anyone run at you and attack the ball. It's shit, fucking bollox!
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:20 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.


Yaya should never be given any kind of job defensively, he has proven he will let the team down, over & over again. He doesn't mark, he doesn't pick up runners, he is a total liability if given a set job. He should be in a free role.


If he was left to be floating in Midfield IMO the set up against us would be different, that said how a Dutch team with the Pedigree of Ajax can do us for fun, is a worry. I think we look a shambles at times, to many players popping up all over the show, nothing set, Ajax always found a ball out and Erikson just came short turned at will. We miss De Jong sory for sounding like a record but it is like the sahara at times in there. I wonder if he will allow Maicon a shot at Bale for some sick reason like Stubborness, if he does we are in trouble. Something is wrong with us and we look a new team each game no shape.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Sideshow Bob » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:35 pm

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


out of curiosity then....wtf are we paying him to do???
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:40 pm

Hazy2 wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.


Yaya should never be given any kind of job defensively, he has proven he will let the team down, over & over again. He doesn't mark, he doesn't pick up runners, he is a total liability if given a set job. He should be in a free role.


If he was left to be floating in Midfield IMO the set up against us would be different, that said how a Dutch team with the Pedigree of Ajax can do us for fun, is a worry. I think we look a shambles at times, to many players popping up all over the show, nothing set, Ajax always found a ball out and Erikson just came short turned at will. We miss De Jong sory for sounding like a record but it is like the sahara at times in there. I wonder if he will allow Maicon a shot at Bale for some sick reason like Stubborness, if he does we are in trouble. Something is wrong with us and we look a new team each game no shape.


Most of these teams are made up of ok but not brilliant players, who rely on their system to bring them success. I think Mancini (& Hughes as it happens was trying it) is trying to do something on a level above that, as we have access to better players.

If we spent July working on a solid system to go to Ajax & Dortmund & get a point, I'm pretty sure we'd get at least a point at Ajax & Dortmund, but we'd struggle to win the league here.

It's a balancing act & imo Bob gets it totally wrong in Europe by being half & half. We aren't lined up like a tactical machine but we don't play with the freedom we sometimes do in the Premier League. Consequently, teams who we would beat here, we struggle against in Europe. Later in the game, we chucked the tactics out & just played like a basic English team & Ajax were in shitloads of trouble. Everton or similar would have beaten them fairly comfortably just by playing their normal game. Chelsea cruised past Napoli last season without even playing well, just being themselves afterwe made Napoli look like a tactical masterpiece & wanted to sign all their players. We try to be something different in Europe & so far we can't do it.

Imo it's hugely over hyped. There are two sides, Real & barca, & they don't always produce. The rest are all beatable.

As for Nige, he was there with Yaya watching Cavani jog unopposed into our box to score in Napoli. He is currently dogshit for AC Milan. Good character, good player for us but he's not the player we are missing; that's Roy K**ne. De Rossi is the closest & if he's available in Jan, we should sign him.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:52 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
Douglas Higginbottom wrote:If Gregucci is a defensive coach it certainly hasn't been apparent on the training pitch at ANY time that I have been there.
I would say with confidence that anything to do with zonal marking is all down to Mancini.I said pre the WHU game that a lot of time was spent going over the positional aspects of zonal marking and I assumed who goes to attack the ball once it's on the way over.

For WHU that would no doubt have been seen as critical bearing in mind how they play and to be fair at West Ham we got it right,competed very well with the high ball and didn't concede much.Then we come up against a smaller side,maybe with better movement and we fell asleep.

Is it coincidence that we are defending worse now that Gregucci is here? I obviously can't be certain but I would say yes it is as out there on the training pitch I haven't seen him do any coaching at all.


Doug do we lack a leader we have the best in Vinny and Joe, yet they effect nothing when a Dutch team score header almost like some sort of piss take. Marking the space in 2 banks of 3 with a goalkeeper watching the ball go in seems a waste of presence and talent. Vinny has to command better IMHO and maybe the set up with YAYA and Barry is all wrong . Fletcher did this to us a season or so a go. Wrong men dealing with a runner whilst Centre halfs are marking the decoy or worse SPACE, which has never scored a goal. In the Prem the we fight fo all types of balls Ajax smacked our bums with brians over Brawn.


Yaya should never be given any kind of job defensively, he has proven he will let the team down, over & over again. He doesn't mark, he doesn't pick up runners, he is a total liability if given a set job. He should be in a free role.


If he was left to be floating in Midfield IMO the set up against us would be different, that said how a Dutch team with the Pedigree of Ajax can do us for fun, is a worry. I think we look a shambles at times, to many players popping up all over the show, nothing set, Ajax always found a ball out and Erikson just came short turned at will. We miss De Jong sory for sounding like a record but it is like the sahara at times in there. I wonder if he will allow Maicon a shot at Bale for some sick reason like Stubborness, if he does we are in trouble. Something is wrong with us and we look a new team each game no shape.


Most of these teams are made up of ok but not brilliant players, who rely on their system to bring them success. I think Mancini (& Hughes as it happens was trying it) is trying to do something on a level above that, as we have access to better players.

If we spent July working on a solid system to go to Ajax & Dortmund & get a point, I'm pretty sure we'd get at least a point at Ajax & Dortmund, but we'd struggle to win the league here.

It's a balancing act & imo Bob gets it totally wrong in Europe by being half & half. We aren't lined up like a tactical machine but we don't play with the freedom we sometimes do in the Premier League. Consequently, teams who we would beat here, we struggle against in Europe. Later in the game, we chucked the tactics out & just played like a basic English team & Ajax were in shitloads of trouble. Everton or similar would have beaten them fairly comfortably just by playing their normal game. Chelsea cruised past Napoli last season without even playing well, just being themselves afterwe made Napoli look like a tactical masterpiece & wanted to sign all their players. We try to be something different in Europe & so far we can't do it.

Imo it's hugely over hyped. There are two sides, Real & barca, & they don't always produce. The rest are all beatable.

As for Nige, he was there with Yaya watching Cavani jog unopposed into our box to score in Napoli. He is currently dogshit for AC Milan. Good character, good player for us but he's not the player we are missing; that's Roy K**ne. De Rossi is the closest & if he's available in Jan, we should sign him.


De Jong IMO nipped things in the bud Ted, I also see him keeping us camped in the opos half as he saw the danger, Erikson would have been strangled last night as NDJ would have had that sorted with Vinny. Now it is Vinny high up when we are chasing teh games which against better teams will see us spanked. All opinions but we look wide open this season and lack shape.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:28 pm

@Hazy,

What did Eriksen do in the first half? I forgot he was even playing until we took Garcia off and left space in front of the back four.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:15 pm

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:@Hazy,

What did Eriksen do in the first half? I forgot he was even playing until we took Garcia off and left space in front of the back four.


For me on his own he dropped off and gave them an out ball, he showed all night, into feet linked it up well. Garcia was mugged all night by a clever player. Vinny did the job in the 2nd half and he still found space to take a touch of pressure of them IMO top player.
De Jong would have been all over him IMHO and we miss that.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Mase » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:27 pm

Hazy2 wrote:
De Jong would have been all over him IMHO and we miss that.


Like de Jong was against Cavani?
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Green & Blue » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:44 pm

No excuses for conceeding goals like this.We need to get a grip at the back and soon.

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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:46 pm

Mase wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
De Jong would have been all over him IMHO and we miss that.


Like de Jong was against Cavani?


yaya was asleep for the goal, lets be honest here, we are all over the shop in the middle of the pitch blaming De Jong is 100% wrong, I accept he has gone, but it is clear we lack no how and the ability to spot danger. Barry god love him is very good but not ever IMHO gonna be the cover Vinny wants screening the middle of the pitch has gone hence howe have Ajax looking like the Home team first 20 last night.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Wooders » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:59 pm

zonal is full of holes
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:33 pm

Wooders wrote:zonal is full of holes


Maybe, I don't know, but I do know for certain that the system we used last night wasn't just zonal & the stuff that went wrong even more than the zonal stuff, was the conventional marking, so had we been using a 100% man for man system, we may have let in 5 or 6 instead of just 2.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:35 pm

Hazy2 wrote:
Mase wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:
De Jong would have been all over him IMHO and we miss that.


Like de Jong was against Cavani?


yaya was asleep for the goal, lets be honest here, we are all over the shop in the middle of the pitch blaming De Jong is 100% wrong, I accept he has gone, but it is clear we lack no how and the ability to spot danger. Barry god love him is very good but not ever IMHO gonna be the cover Vinny wants screening the middle of the pitch has gone hence howe have Ajax looking like the Home team first 20 last night.


Have a look at Nige 'screening' v Malaga & his efforts to stop Isco last night & you may re evaluate.
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Re: New Defensive Coach

Postby City64 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:01 pm

We had the best defence in England and one of the best defences in Europe before Gregucci turned up ........

he,s crap !
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